New push rules

[DeletedUser]

Reasonable enough
How about someone quitting, can he put his items for sale with that $1 each for his townmates for example?

 

[DeletedUser]

Rintsi, I'm not going to advocate, nor authorize, any "acceptable" exploit. Exploit is exploit, plain and simple.

 

[DeletedUser]

Now I understand. "Hernando´s sword for $1" and something really cheap for $100000. Thank you Hellstromm! I think your comment was very clear.

 

[DeletedUser6693]

i personally hate subjective rules and being at the mercy of others opinions. if they dont want that much money flowing around then just cap it. there is already minimums on what you can sell things for, why not put maximums on them to. like double there buy price or triple or whatever. this way people dont have to worry about breaking the rules because they cant. this idea would take away some of the fun of the market but it would keep everyone playing by the same rules and remove the danger of being banned for market violations.

just another stupid idea to mull over

 

[DeletedUser]

So Hellstromm, is it against the rules for someone to post in his or her alliance's forum saying they are in need of a Percise Pepperbox revolver or a Sharp foil, and ask if someone could sell it on the market?

 

[DeletedUser]

Reasonable enough
How about someone quitting, can he put his items for sale with that $1 each for his townmates for example?

He can't, you can only set the selling price as a minimum.

 

[DeletedUser]

What about this?

note 1 at $700 is possible but definitely seems like a pushing.

note 1 at $2000 could also be seen as pushing.

note 1 at $8000 could also be seen quite cheaper than the normal market price. Very ambiguous.

note 1 at $15000 would be seen as quite a good bargain, but still some might call it pushing, if it's like half of the average price.

So, who draws the line? Or is it ok to be sold at any price above $700?

Unless someone decides the range of "fair price" for each and every trade-able item it won't be easy to coordinate.

 

[DeletedUser]

I don't think it is pushing unless it is pre-arranged. You can sell something for as little as possible, as long as you don't pre-arrange the deal

 

[DeletedUser]

i guess it all depends on the demand. in w11 i found a lump of dirt and its basically useless for me at level 82 resistance dueling ex builder. i have no urge to respec again, so i put it up for auction at 5k less than what the lowest starting bid was of the ones already in there.

mine started at 10k open end auction and in 2 days has risen to 30k

i still dont see the problem tho, if i have another lump and someone within my alliance wants it and has something i want, whats the problem with each of us being happy? isnt that the purpose of a market?

 

[DeletedUser3543]

Lol.

The first day of the market I sold Hernandos for $35k - no use to l99 ranged dueller!

Had I waited a few days I reckon I could have got 3 times that much for it

 

[DeletedUser]

i sold piece of the note part 1 for its minimum sales price.... does this mean i should be banned?

silly rule. the note had no value to me and i didnt need cash. so i sold it for what i felt it was worth.

so... what is the point of having an auction system if there is a ceiling price set by the mods?

surely if a tabacco leaf, allows you to complete a quest line and you cant be bothered to waste your time doing the job... it could have say a value of $200 to you... surely prices should be paid based what an individual values them at.


in my opinion innogames seems to think cash being passed around to people by over the odds prices being paid will stop people using higher income premium... and thats their real concern.

 

[DeletedUser]

Another ruling thread....

§6) Push duels

A player may not intentionally take part in a prearranged duel to provide or obtain experience points or money. A player may not use the Sheriff and Market to push items or money between players (prearranged).


Now, this is what I wrote in our internal alliance forums :

"Request : Indian Clothing, up to and less than equal to 9 thousand (that should cover auction fees, or for even 10k, just pm me then), two days cash mobilization time, so if you auction it up tomorrow for one day that would be great. " >> the "you" here refers to anybody from any town (part of the alliance) that has Indian Clothing

And, this is the response I got from a fellow member : "The Dev. Blog just stated that we can't use the market to push duels or items. Pushing items, it seems, would be setting up a price before hand in the market and then selling it at that price, and having someone instantly pay that price. So, I would suggest not doing it. "

Now, technically, it IS a pre-arranged deal for monetary transactions, although the receiving party is yet to be determined, although definitely a member of the alliance.

However, since Hellstorm also values "common sense" : my common sense tells me that reduction of town switching, internal co-operation between alliance, etc, is exactly the purpose of the market, and buying Indian clothing from a fellow "ally" (the exact person is still undetermined, first come first serve basis in most cases) while giving him an "acceptable" 10-15% margin (lets face it, buying Indian Clothing for 9k is not comparable to buying elixir 10k!!!) is... within the paradigm of common sense as far as I can see it.

Judge rule?

PS, the way I see it I have a "question" and I have given the context. A clear response from Duduie or HellStorm is all what I am looking for...

 

[DeletedUser10059]

So, you hate it, that's fine. A Hernando's sword being sold for a $1 will get our attention.
That's it.

Well......you can't sell Hernando's for 1 dollar, the market won't let you... but you can sell it for $4,350.............so is that ok??? and is it ok if one of my town members has it, and I buy it from him??? is it ok if I don't know he puts it on the market, but it's bannable if he tells me he is doing it??

I really think there should be a game change that needs to take place here, like setting a maximum sale price for each item (5x the sell price for normal items, and 10x for named items)... then there is no way to really push sell, and people won't have to worry about getting in trouble.

 

[DeletedUser]

A player may not intentionally take part in a prearranged duel for the sole purpose of providing or receiving from his opponent experience points or money.

As a rule this is woeful - you can drive a coach and horses through it with room to spare.
Before I start though, how could a 'prearranged' duel not be intentional????? One for the philosophers.

It clearly states that a prearranged duel can take place as long as points or money are not the sole purpose. So they may be a purpose as long as they are not the only purpose.

The rules are broken only if I arrange a duel with the sole intention of transferring points or money. As this is a state of mind how is it to be established? Normally this is done in law by cross-examining the accused - this is the established principle of habeus corpus. However, in The West there is no such process - the mods make a decision and it's not really even clear if you have the right of reply or an explanation.

The only reason for such a 'rule' is that the game allows strategies that either some players would consider unfair, or that affect the commercial viability of the game by undermining the paid-for privileges. This simply means that features of the game are poorly designed and rather than correct them, some 'bolt-on' rule is improvised without being thought through.

In spite of being entirely predictable, a similar thing has now happened with Market and Sheriff, and of course as a fudge the same arguments will rumble on endlessly. The only real answer is to code the game in such a way that all undesired outcomes are not possible, or failing that, accept that they are a feature that players will use in creative ways.

 

[DeletedUser]

I think we will all agree that we don''t want cheaters among us.
That being said I think the problem here is that a good deal of the players still do not understand this rule. I for one don't think it's clear enough, however, after reading this thread I am little more enlightened..

This is how I understand the market rule: IT IS O.K. to make deals with people upfront (what you want to sell, want to buy, price haggle..) all before the two of you enter the market place with the intent to barter only to one another.
HOWEVER: if the barter that takes place is so "unusual" that it catches the eye of one of the game hosts, i.e. it looks like "pushing" you could get banned. Both of you.

Would this be a fair assessment of what is going on with this rule?

 

[DeletedUser]

in beta my bear is sold for 90k and i love that!

 

[DeletedUser]

in beta my bear is sold for 90k and i love that!

so is this against rule ? maybe he manage with somebody for buy him bear for that money ? :unsure:
with no telegram / no ingame chat / ...

for example i want put my hernando for sell with 80,000 k
so probably somebody will like for buy this ! so is this against rule !!!?
""""""""""""++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This discussion is mainly pointed to the devs. I was amazed when i read the new game rules on the .net forum, the ones concerning market and sheriff, as push duels were forbidden in our country's version for a long time now and i think that rule was meant to be enforced.

So here is the rule: A player may not use the Sheriff and Market to push items or money between players (prearranged).

Simple questions:

How are you gonna determine if a market sale is pushed if you have no actual proof (chat, messages or any other ingame discussions that can point it was a prearranged thing) ?

What stops me from putting up a gray woolly hat for 50.000 $ ?

What stops a player who really wants/needs a gray woolly hat from buying it for that price ?

On what grounds can you punish someone for a sale like that if you don't have any proof of it being prearranged ? Who's to say that this kind of sale can't happen willingly or unwillingly ?

How can you determine if a bounty is pushed if you have no proof (chat, messages or any other ingame discussions that can point it was a prearranged thing) ?

How can you punish someone that got bountied while wearing a pillow, the player who took the reward or the player who placed the reward ? Who's to say that can't happen without it being prearranged ?

And the icing on the cake, how can you enforce a rule that forbids placing a bounty on your own head when you actually allow that option in the sheriff ?

Well, i know that these rules will probably be implemented in most of the countries as i'm an admin in my country's version and we talked about a new set of rules within our team. But first of all i put myself in the position of a player and i try to understand the logic and the flaws. And these rules obviously have no logic and lots of flaws.

 

[DeletedUser9470]

the bear is an extremely rare item, i just managed to buy 2 both at 30k through the trader with no immediate purchase price!
i was staggered no one bidded any higher!

im gonna put one up for sale for $80k with immediate $120k.

this is fair as there is no market value for it. as there is no other bear for sale.

in fact in this case i am deciding what market value to give it. i know its extremely rare, even rarer than some shinys like hernando (which sells for $100k).
so its only fair it sells for more.

 

[DeletedUser1121]

i would buy a bear for 30k instantly.

 

[DeletedUser]

i would buy a bear for 30k instantly.

same here, without a second thought. 30k is a steal for the bear in my opinion. when the lump of dirt is fetching that and way more, i think its all about supply/demand just like any market

if someone wants it bad enough they will pay. im almost considering getting hernandos sword myself and putting it on the market rather than just the note

what i am kind of surprised at is the price of some of the more generic items. tequila for 1-2k? thats nuts. if you are starting out on a world tho, and get in quick with a town buying some of the products can be a big help. already having tequila and/or elixir can be a huge boost when you are still under level 20