Make fort battle skills more effective

DeletedUser

Elmyr said:
If skills matter more, then higher levels with more SP have the advantage still. If lower levels aren't at a serious disadvantage then neither is high health.
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Higher levels tend to attack more often than defend since xp isn't needed once you reach the level cap, so lower levels will get tower bonuses. :cool:
I did run some calculations though.....
1. a level 120 attack-specced fort fighter would have an attack bonus of 70, slightly higher tower defense bonus plus default defense bonus.
2. a level 120 defense-specced premium worker would have a defense bonus of about 120(forgot exact number of large fort tower defense bonuses).
Case 2 will be very rare, as Case 1 would be the more favored build overall. Note that these are both extreme cases and there is a lot of builds that fall inbetween.
 

DeletedUser

rice farmer said:
so lower levels will get tower bonuses. :cool:
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And so do high hp...

I don't see how any of this will reduce the need for health. If attackers hit more, defenders need to be able to take more. It's like saying GG stacking reduced the need for health, when GG stacking made defenders need much more health.
 

DeletedUser

Which is why people will be trying to figure out the sweet spot between bonuses and hp, hence, more diversity in builds.
 

DeletedUser30224

you keep refering to low level players ... I think anything below lvl 70 is at the fort battle for the fun and not the benefit. Why do we need low lvl players with 500 hp to make 3000+ damage and 20+ dodges? Why do we want to reward low lvl players ? Nobody rewards them in jobs, they are locked out from duels, but if their duel lvl is high enough, a high lvl dueler SHOULD always win because he/she has extra skills (experience call it as you want). Only a pure player can do high lvl jobs at lower lvls, but since we needs skills distributed to be successful in fort fights, lower lvl should/cannot be good at fort fighting. It's simple, if you put accent on skills, low lvl players with these skills will barely have HP for 6 shots at them. Will that help the game play? Not really.

Because your weapon makes 250+ damage, each hit on you costs you HP ... no matter how you tweak the formulas, a player will need extra HP to be successful. I would hate to see players on point that are so great dodgers that 50+ players shoot at them and they only get hit once or twice. So you NEED HP, and what do you think HP means : enough to stay ONE round on point without dieing. That is crucial. so 3000+ hp would be minimum regardless on how you tweak the formula. So low lvl players can NEVER be front line players, thus they should NEVER be rewarded.

My idea is to get reward if you earn it.

I do agree that lowering the +25 and +10 would improve our lives. Easy to do, easy to test ... why do we have beta worlds ... just test it there and then update the whole system if successful. NoOne can really predict what will happen, because we do not know the formula to success :)

We know that you get points, and some fools think that if they have 90points on a tower they will dodge 90"% of the shots ... GG stacking system showed us that even with 99points in a tower you got KO'd if you had no great HP and were in LOS of 50+ guns.

My opinion, I agree with Elmyr, the standard naked bonuses should be lowered. I would also suggest increasing the importance of some skills over others. Leadership, stamina, hiding ... give me a break, you really need aim only to hit something and dodge to not get hit, so make these important :) I can hear you yapping that "that will make everybody a dueler-fort fighter" ... nothing wrong with filling our forts for a change...
 

DeletedUser

rice farmer said:
Which is why people will be trying to figure out the sweet spot between bonuses and hp, hence, more diversity in builds.
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There already IS diversity. VERY few people are pure health. Most people agree health is important, but there's still a lot of discrepancy between beliefs on HOW important. To me, 4k hp isn't a tank, it's a fort fighter. On two FF worlds I'm currently below that because of quests. My main had less then 2k hp when I got my first elite fort battle winner. I later respecced to 4k-4500 hp after getting my GG at 116 where I remained for quite a while. I was briefly pure hp, but I hated the inconsistency and bumps and dropped to 6k. My soldier has ~8k hp, which is the same health as 4k hp for other classes.

Despite the similarity of hp, NONE of the four have ever had identical builds. You see high hp and scream cookie cutter when that just isn't the truth. My four fort fighters alone have diversity. Just because you don't see nuance doesn't mean it's not there.
 

DeletedUser

While there are many builds overall, there's just one build regarding fort fighting, hp, whether you go all the way or not.
 

DeletedUser23629

You can't pass this, it defeats the purpose.

Nobody has answered this question yet. If you do this, you force people to become pure fort fighters. If you are a "good" fort fighter, what other aspect of the game can you participate in?

This goes against the whole point of fort battles, which is to allow everyone to be successful. Health points and character classes are the problem. This is what we need to focus on.
 

DeletedUser

heya, a little birdie told me about this discussion, so figured i would chime in.... you're "all" wrong. :)

---- hps aren't the problem, skills aren't the problem, fort gun damage is the problem. ----

The game's mechanics already compensate, limiting gun damage to causing no more than 1/3 your max hps, ensuring that even the little guy has to be struck at least three times. Duelers get a bonus, but not more than a percentage over 1/3rd max hps. Soooo, all the mechanics are working just fine, the problem is, you guys have seriously whimpy fort guns.

The developers didn't take into consideration people might hp focus, so when they made fort guns, they limited them to be similart to dueling weapons. The problem here is that dueling is an 8 round win/lose, with maybe getting lucky enough to catch them low on hps and getting a k.o. win --- while fort battles are about taking out the opposition, k.o. being a requirement.

Alright so there it is, make a proposal recommending befier fort guns... a lot beefier, and everything will have been reasonably addressed. Hell, maybe even add specialty guns like sniper rifles that let you pick your targets, or greeners (short barrel shotguns) with bigger range penalties but better damage at close range, etc and so on. Maybe a variety of fort weapon types can offer up new fort attk/def strategies.

What i'm trying to say is, the focus is all wrong. Not only is it a lot harder to ask for the game mechanics to be changed, adjusting characters, but it's simply the wrong direction. The easy, and potentially magical, solution is in the accessories --- the guns and whatever else people can think of to accessorize thier characters and/or forts.

Right, okay, that's my input. Have fun and I'm off again.
 
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DeletedUser

Hellstromm said:
....
---- hps aren't the problem, skills aren't the problem, fort gun damage is the problem. ----
....

What i'm trying to say is, the focus is all wrong. Not only is it a lot harder to ask for the game mechanics to be changed, adjusting characters, but it's simply the wrong direction. The easy, and potentially magical, solution is in the accessories --- the guns and whatever else people can think of to accessorize thier characters and/or forts.....
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Ok, so I'm not disagreeing with you, because I'm sure what you say has a decent amount of truth and accuracy, however:
1) How hard of a game mechanics change is it to change ^0.4 to ^0.5 in the calculation and to reduce the basic +25/+10 that everyone (even full HP) get? Surely that's super easy?
2) If This Page on TW-DB is to be believed there has already been designed by the Devs 4 fort guns that could be introduced for this purpose: Gatling Gun (could be given 'higher average damage' stats), Elephant Gun (could be, along with Pepper Guns, programmed to decide on damage between 1-XXX based on distance), Geronimo's Shotgun (could be another higher damage gun, but maybe with benefits based on having other "Geronimo" set items similar to Golden bonuses), Sniper Rifle (could be for Duelers only with extra fort or max-hp bonus etc) So if already designed and 'wimpy damage' is the problem then why not introduce them to the game?

Basically how hard would it be to make those 2 changes to give more damage and more skills emphasis? Seems not hard at all.
 
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DeletedUser

Hellstromm said:
Alright so there it is, make a proposal recommending befier fort guns... a lot beefier, and everything will have been reasonably addressed. Hell, maybe even add specialty guns like sniper rifles that let you pick your targets, or greeners (short barrel shotguns) with bigger range penalties but better damage at close range, etc and so on. Maybe a variety of fort weapon types can offer up new fort attk/def strategies.
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Or bring back GG stacking. ;)

But really, there's almost nothing that could be done that would make hp less important besides something stupid like making it impossible to dodge over x hp. Of course then everyone would have x - 1 hp.
 

DeletedUser

HS put forth a valid point....now we know what fort shops are for.....;)
anyways, I don't think there will be just one silver bullet to balance out fort fighting, so let's try to pass one idea at a time, ok? :D
Elmyr and Neo should stop quibbling, I think most builds under this proposed system would put most skills towards hitting/dodging and leave some for health to survive a round or two.
So, mstngcobra, I think this idea can move into voting now. :)
 

DeletedUser

Before it's put to a vote, I reckon you should settle on one idea, instead of having two different ones.

Although both ideas puts more weight to skills, they kind of have the opposite affect on tower-bonuses, aswell as any buff or item bonus that is related to FF's.


You also haven't solved the issue that was mentioned earlier, about how this will affect lower levels.
 

DeletedUser

Lower levels shouldn't be too disadvantaged because fb skills are also used for jobs. Also, because skills are still raised to a fractional power, attack/defense bonuses won't be too unbalancing when lower levels face higher levels.
 

DeletedUser

rice farmer said:
Lower levels shouldn't be too disadvantaged because fb skills are also used for jobs. Also, because skills are still raised to a fractional power, attack/defense bonuses won't be too unbalancing when lower levels face higher levels.
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If the idea doesn't affect lower levels, it won't affect HP either.

A 12k Soldier is essentially (1)a lower level(in terms of attack/defense value) + (2)a lot of HP. So if you want to give that player a reason to move points from HP into his attack/defense value, you are basically saying that the first part of his build(1) isn't good enough.
 

DeletedUser

John Colt said:
If the idea doesn't affect lower levels, it won't affect HP either.

A 12k Soldier is essentially (1)a lower level(in terms of attack/defense value) + (2)a lot of HP. So if you want to give that player a reason to move points from HP into his attack/defense value, you are basically saying that the first part of his build(1) isn't good enough.
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Just because the idea isn't unbalancing doesn't mean there isn't a noticeable gap between low and high levels, in terms of attack/defense value. The 12k soldier will dodge a lot less shots when faced with high attack value players.
 

DeletedUser23629

I have over 13,000 HP in a world, and I simply don't know why anything in this proposed idea will make me change that.

Even if you raise the skill importance even more, I will only drop my HP from 13,000 to 11,000. The fact that skills go up exponentially, just means that having 30-50 points on all fort skills is just as good as if you had 150.
 
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