I'm Gay, but if I admit it I will be shunned.

[DeletedUser31931]

The title is something I thought up of as a possible thought a gay person could have.
This thread is to discuss the cold shoulder on gay people. What is wrong about being gay?

A lot of people are gay, many are also Bi-sexual. I believe that there is nothing wrong with that yet if you go to any modern day primary school (I use GB as my example here and my own personal experiences) then being called gay is considered one of the worst insults there is alongside any of the swear words which in primary school you are still shocked at if someone uses them. So here is the simple question: What is wrong with being gay (or for that matter Lesbian)?

Firstly I'd like to discuss a newspaper article from summer this year. Here is the link: Lesbian couple seek protection.

 

[DeletedUser]

Blame it on societal tradition.

 

[DeletedUser16008]

Depends what you mean about the cold shoulder Zem people are very different and sure the UK still has problem wrestling with it, certain areas more so than others, Newcastle oh yes a problem, Brighton no problem at all. Im not sure its any better or worse in the UK than a lot of places but its certainly better than say many eastern European countries but not so open as say the Netherlands.

That newpaper article is from North India, not a place that is as relaxed traditionally nothing unusual about that unfortunately in that region ... btw for the purpose of this discussion im going to use the word gay to encompass both sexes, makes it easier. Interestingly when I spent a good deal of time in S India there was nowhere near the same attitude, indeed an awful lot of Indian guys walking around hand in hand & I mean a lot where the word Bachelor was a term used for gay, quite sweet I thought and this was in the 90s....

The west is definitely homophobic as we all know and a lot of certain highly religious nations still have it outlawed. Asia is very tolerant, Thailand for instance even has what they call the third sex, ladyboys or tomboys, as they call them very blatant too whereas the gay community is prevalent everywhere to the point of school classes having as much as 50% of the boys being Gay or certainly Transgender in the making,no one bats an eyelid yet the joking and even insults flow there just the same, the difference is no one really makes a big thing about it and its accepted as part of the world.

Its no biggie to be called Gay and I don't see the issue with it, being just a word, usually its those saying it that have the problem and are in fear or a bit short on independent thinking. Of course there isnt anything wrong with being gay etc, unless your a certain religion then the teachings will say otherwise and it can become a conflict of contradictions, background has a lot to do with how its viewed too. Dosn't mean i cant find humor in certain situations or speech but do date ive never been mistaken for being anti anything. I am just as likely to joke around with gay people as with straight they get no special treatment either way as a lot know that play and know me in this game. If I were using the word Gay as an insult it would only be to another straight person knowing full well it was likely to offend them for some bizarre reason, say it to me and i wouldnt care one bit... but thats people for you.

There are certain issues I don't particularly agree with if i'm honest, mostly to do with insemination in women but not fostering or adopting which i see as totally different and fine. Adam and Eve rather than Adam and Steve etc but thats another subject

Should being Gay be considered as perfectly normal ? well im not so sure about that either based solely on there are two sexes and Humans can only reproduce naturally with one of each sex. Sequential hermaphrodites do not to my knowledge exist in humans yet. It is however natural as its nature made not a condition or anything like that imo. If you look around in nature you'll see its very prevalent too. Then again seriously what is NORMAL ? the older i get the less im sure there is such a thing anyway.

People are what they are. Whats in the heart is far more important than anything, try to worry less about it you'll realise its the social world thats got the problem, nature dosnt care and neither should you.

 

[DeletedUser31931]

What you have said is extremely interesting Victor. I agree with a lot of it and if we go back in time then actually there were more gay people than "straight" people, so to speak. Another thing I would like to specifically discuss is a case quite a long time ago when a Catholic Bishop admitted he was gay and was kicked out of the church for it. Who believes that this is right? More importantly, who will defend the Catholic statement that gayness is wrong?

 

[DeletedUser16008]

Well Zem, im not catholic not even close but.

The doctrines are what they are & Catholicism has strong ones on certain subjects, being gay is one of them, heck they wont even marry you if you cant consecrate a marriage and the pair are of both sexes so its not like the gay community is being singled out. Its a religion and they have thier beliefs and to that end any representative of that religion is expected to be a pillar of those beliefs, not surprised he was booted nor tbh was it unfair. The catholic doctrines were around long before he was and he didnt have to become a member in the first place and certainly knew the consequences if found out.

Dosn't mean i condone it btw I couldn't care less about the catholic church but they have their rules and have a right to exert them over their paid representatives.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well, you can't really blame a person for being gay... it's not a choice. The choice is when they have sex or get married. Of course, I don't agree with them being married, but I have nothing against them. Ancient Greek men had their wives and their buddies that they occasionally have sex with. In fact in ancient Greece, it was part of a boys (child) sex education when a man had sex with them. Yeah.. one of the earliest recorded times when there were peadophiles. Eventually, that stopped since they eventually saw the damage they were doing to the kids. Can you blame a gay person for being gay? God made them that way, didn't He? Why should we shun them for being what God made them to be?

Of course, according to Dr. Fedoroff, most people who bash gays are gay themselves. It's not accepted. In fact a decades ago, it was illegal in Canada to have gay sex, even when you and the other person are consenting adults. *shrug* At least it has been changed.

 

[DeletedUser31931]

Victor, I see what you are saying but surely it is wrong to exclude people because of which sex they love. I mean aren't Catholics kinda hypocrites because the bible says

All people are equal and should be treated equally

or something along the lines of that yet they shun gay people, therefore not treating people equally.

 

[DeletedUser]

What you have said is extremely interesting Victor. I agree with a lot of it and if we go back in time then actually there were more gay people than "straight" people, so to speak. Another thing I would like to specifically discuss is a case quite a long time ago when a Catholic Bishop admitted he was gay and was kicked out of the church for it. Who believes that this is right? More importantly, who will defend the Catholic statement that gayness is wrong?

Interesting opinion Zemelci. So should a religious organization maintain there standards and take responsibility for the image of their church ... or should they amend their belief's to accommodate those who will not follow it's teachings or sweep it under the carpet? Too many people are put off by hypocrisy in religion. When Jesus witnessed the case of the woman caught committing adultery, he first said to her accusers "Let him without sin throw the first stone" (Jewish law's punishment was death for that sin). After the accusers left in shame, he said to the woman "neither do I condemn you, go your way and SIN NO MORE". Homosexuality is a gross violation of many churches teachings ... whether they are right or wrong should we not respect them for practicing what they belief? As for the Bishop did he do what he was paid to do by upholding the teachings of his church? If he was not comfortable about his sexuality or his church's teachings about Homosexuality while holding that office, shouldn't he of resigned long before hand?

 

[DeletedUser]

Victor, I see what you are saying but surely it is wrong to exclude people because of which sex they love. I mean aren't Catholics kinda hypocrites because the bible says or something along the lines of that yet they shun gay people, therefore not treating people equally.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

However, the Church also acknowledges that "[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.

http://www.americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/default.asp

The Catholic Church opposes gay marriage and the social acceptance of homosexuality and same-sex relationships, but teaches that homosexual persons deserve respect, justice and pastoral care.

Are you really going to say that Catholics want to shun and disrespect gays? Do Catholics approve of homosexuality? Of course not. Do Catholics want to disrespect and look down upon gays? Of course not. What Catholics shun is the idea of homosexuality of itself.

As for a bishiop being gay you must realize that he is not on the same level as a regular church goer. His job is to teach and administer the Catholic faith to his parishes. He has taken oaths and given his promise to God to follow the rules of the Church to help out other people. If he does not want to follow the rules of his faith then it is understandable that he is not in a capable possition of teaching his followers to follow in the rules of his faith.

 

[DeletedUser]

I hate to sound callous, but why do people feel the need to announce to others that they're gay in the first place? I've never felt the need to say to any of my family or friends (male or female) that I felt it was time that I told them that I was heterosexual. If I weren't, I'd probably either act on my feelings (or not) and still not feel the need to tell the world about it. I've never felt the need to bring it up at a family get-together, at work, in school, church or anywhere else; why do people feel the need to tell others if they don't fit the same mold as most people they know?

 

[DeletedUser]

I hate to sound callous, but why do people feel the need to announce to others that they're gay in the first place? I've never felt the need to say to any of my family or friends (male or female) that I felt it was time that I told them that I was heterosexual. If I weren't, I'd probably either act on my feelings (or not) and still not feel the need to tell the world about it. I've never felt the need to bring it up at a family get-together, at work, in school, church or anywhere else; why do people feel the need to tell others if they don't fit the same mold as most people they know?

Well, I think there is a really simple explanation for this: monogamous lifelong heterosexuality is the norm in most of the societies in the world today. This means that everyone assumes that you either have or want to have a lifelong sexual partner of the other sex. If you don't have or want to have that you can either lie about it constantly or you can make sure that people know that you don't want that so they wont say or do stupid/inconsiderate stuff.

For as long as people assume that everyone is in or wants to be in a monogamous heterosexual lifelong relationship there is a need for everyone that doesn't share those aspirations to speak up.

And I'm not talking about big things, but the small things - like when I am around town with a male friend most people assume we are a couple and we always get comments towards that effect. Or if I go to a hospital many places still ask if there is a husband to get in touch with.

Another thing to consider (related, but not directly to what I quoted above) is that monogamous lifelong heterosexual relationships get a lot of attention and are constantly shoved up all our faces, so in all fairness: if people don't want to have anything else in public please stop showing this off too!

/Edlit

 

[DeletedUser]

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

However, the Church also acknowledges that "[homosexuality’s] psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. . . . The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s cross the difficulties that they may encounter from their condition.

http://www.americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/default.asp

The Catholic Church opposes gay marriage and the social acceptance of homosexuality and same-sex relationships, but teaches that homosexual persons deserve respect, justice and pastoral care.

Are you really going to say that Catholics want to shun and disrespect gays? Do Catholics approve of homosexuality? Of course not. Do Catholics want to disrespect and look down upon gays? Of course not. What Catholics shun is the idea of homosexuality of itself.

As for a bishiop being gay you must realize that he is not on the same level as a regular church goer. His job is to teach and administer the Catholic faith to his parishes. He has taken oaths and given his promise to God to follow the rules of the Church to help out other people. If he does not want to follow the rules of his faith then it is understandable that he is not in a capable possition of teaching his followers to follow in the rules of his faith.

Very well said teh train robber. Your post is one of the finest I've ever read on this forum

 

[DeletedUser]

Depends what you mean about the cold shoulder Zem people are very different and sure the UK still has problem wrestling with it, certain areas more so than others, Newcastle oh yes a problem, Brighton no problem at all. Im not sure its any better or worse in the UK than a lot of places but its certainly better than say many eastern European countries but not so open as say the Netherlands.

Well Vic basicly homophobia is directly related to financial condition of the country, hence most of the people in western countries don't have anything against homosexuals, while in eastern Europe people would gladly rip them apart. Can't push sexual freedoms on people that can't earn enough for basic existence. Just an example here, in my country unemployment is sky high, people that do work are constantly abused for the wages that barely cover basic life cost(or not) but main priority is gay pride and gay rights. That leaves bitter taste in mouth of many people.

As for insults, such as "you're gay" that is just problem with west adopting political correctness to absurd measure, everything is insult, everything is hate speech, in fact if you state your own opinion and its different from what is accepted as a proper attitude towards subject you will be branded as a primitive/homophobic/stupid.

Its no biggie to be called Gay and I don't see the issue with it, being just a word, usually its those saying it that have the problem and are in fear or a bit short on independent thinking.

There are certain issues I don't particularly agree with if i'm honest, mostly to do with insemination in women but not fostering or adopting which i see as totally different and fine. Adam and Eve rather than Adam and Steve etc but thats another subject

Independent thinking can get different people to different conclusions Vic, i can't judge people based on their attitude toward gays, on both sides you can find intelligent people, thinking that someone is primitive solely on that is just plain stupid and just goes to confirm previous paragraph about political correctness.
Just to be clear on this, my attitude towards gays as a group is neutral. Don't mind them being there and doing whatever they do, but i do mind parades, marriages and kids adopting.

 

[DeletedUser]

Just to be clear on this, my attitude towards gays as a group is neutral. Don't mind them being there and doing whatever they do, but i do mind parades, marriages and kids adopting.

if your attitude towards gays was truly neutral, you wouldn't mind/care if they had parades, married (legally not religiously) or adopted children.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -


Here in the USA we are supposed to have Separation of Church and State, yet no one can bring forth any evidence that isn't religious as to why it is wrong for gays to marry but okay for straights. If the State recognizes straight marriages, they therefore should also recognize gay marriage, as our declaration of independence says "..all men are created equal...".

We all have different religious beliefs/non-beliefs, but those shouldnt oppress others who are different. Example: you dont believe gays should marry, but its wrong to try to make laws restricting them from marrying legally when the state allows you just because you are straight.

instead of voting for laws that restrict others based on their beliefs, people should be pushing for the state/s to abolish marriage all together so religious types can keep their "sanctity of marriage" or whatever.
------------
One could also speculate that maybe god created some people to be gay in order to have a sort of natural population control...? or maybe just for the heck of it, as god created the animals of the earth and bisexuality happens in a few species.


I maybe think religion has a huge part in why gays are less tolerated in some countries. The more religious the population (%) the less tolerant?

i dunno just some of my thoughts at 6am.

 

[DeletedUser]

if your attitude towards gays was truly neutral, you wouldn't mind/care if they had parades, married (legally not religiously) or adopted children.

Call me a traditionalist, but i don't think that anything good will come out of that much liberalism. I see no point in gay marriage, maybe some kind of union that would give them existential rights , but even than i would leave that to more liberal countries. Parades are irritating, at least for me in my present situation, i see a country spending few millions euros for security purposes while people are financialy screwed. As for adopting it is naturally to expect that gay couple will raise its kid as a gay, and that sounds truly wrong for me.

As i see it now many countries are pushed into allowing forementioned rights to homosexuals as a first priority while when it comes to regular people they can starve and no one would care.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here in the USA we are supposed to have Separation of Church and State, yet no one can bring forth any evidence that isn't religious as to why it is wrong for gays to marry but okay for straights. If the State recognizes straight marriages, they therefore should also recognize gay marriage, as our declaration of independence says "..all men are created equal...".

Term marriage needs clarification here. IMO opinion marriage is a union between man and a woman. Try naming it differently and define it a little bit differently and you would be ok.
And btw your country is perfect example that all men are not created equal.

I maybe think religion has a huge part in why gays are less tolerated in some countries. The more religious the population (%) the less tolerant?

I am telling you its the finances, prosperous countries don't care for sexual orientation, poor countries can't swallow that on an empty stomach.

 

[DeletedUser]

Call me a traditionalist, but i don't think that anything good will come out of that much liberalism. I see no point in gay marriage, maybe some kind of union that would give them existential rights , but even than i would leave that to more liberal countries. Parades are irritating, at least for me in my present situation, i see a country spending few millions euros for security purposes while people are financialy screwed. As for adopting it is naturally to expect that gay couple will raise its kid as a gay, and that sounds truly wrong for me.

Hmm... Let's see what happens if I tweak a little bit of your post.

"Call me a traditionalist, but i don't think that anything good will come out of that much liberalism. I see no point in the civil rights movement, maybe some kind of union that would give them existential rights , but even than i would leave that to more liberal countries. Parades are irritating, at least for me in my present situation, i see a country spending few millions euros for security purposes while people are financialy screwed."

Although it seems a bit ugly after changing it, this is basically what you're saying, you're just singling out a sexual minority rather than a racial minority. Why do they need these "annoying parades"? Because the government is not providing homosexuals with the freedom given to EVERY SINGLE other person in the country. Disabling from people their freedom just because of the way they were born is sick and primitive. You say these parades should stop? Why not simply give these people the same rights you give to others. All people are created equal and deserve the same amount of respect and freedom as anyone else on this planet.

I'm going to single out this line of your post:

"As for adopting it is naturally to expect that gay couple will raise its kid as a gay, and that sounds truly wrong for me."
This is possibly one of the most misinformed sentences I have ever read. In fact, I am questioning your ability to participate in this debate without knowing anything about this issue.

Please click the link I have provided for an explanation:

http://front.moveon.org/two-lesbians-raised-a-baby-and-this-is-what-they-got/#.TteLtc43tGy.facebook

Truly a horrid post. Please educate yourself before making such rude and derogatory posts as this!

-Jarp

 

[DeletedUser]

Hmm... Let's see what happens if I tweak a little bit of your post.

US school of democracy and free thinking, debate section i see...
Keep on spinning...

Although it seems a bit ugly after changing it, this is basically what you're saying, you're just singling out a sexual minority rather than a racial minority. Why do they need these "annoying parades"? Because the government is not providing homosexuals with the freedom given to EVERY SINGLE other person in the country. Disabling from people their freedom just because of the way they were born is sick and primitive. You say these parades should stop? Why not simply give these people the same rights you give to others. All people are created equal and deserve the same amount of respect and freedom as anyone else on this planet.

In my country we have a new law that forbids workers to strike outside their factories, they have no right of showing their dissatisfaction or right to fight for their rights. Many of them did not got their salary for months, yet they have no right to protest.
Imagine what, gays have that right.
So if possible do not teach me about situation in MY COUNTRY.

Don't give me that US nominal bull* that all people are created equal, that is only good to use on forums or election campaigns. Are Lybians, Iraqi or Vietnamese people created equal to you? Are hispanic immigrants equal? Hell they are, those words are just something that sounds good in your head, keeps you as far from reality as possible and makes you feel better about yourself, or it may be that you have absolutely no contact with reality.

I'm going to single out this line of your post:

"As for adopting it is naturally to expect that gay couple will raise its kid as a gay, and that sounds truly wrong for me."
This is possibly one of the most misinformed sentences I have ever read. In fact, I am questioning your ability to participate in this debate without knowing anything about this issue.

Please click the link I have provided for an explanation:

http://front.moveon.org/two-lesbians-raised-a-baby-and-this-is-what-they-got/#.TteLtc43tGy.facebook

Truly a horrid post. Please educate yourself before making such rude and derogatory posts as this!

-Jarp

You are good at singling things out and changing my posts, I expect great career for you at the fox news. Honestly i had this conversation so many times and can't be bothered to read or watch another spin of how upbringing doesn't affect kids sexuality, it takes special kind of person to believe that, brainless one, and i'm sorry but you don't have adequate audience with me.
As for education and ability to participate in debate, mate i must say you are walking, talking example of a person that doesn't question anything, just goes with the flow. My only conclusion that your brain has a function of balancing your head...

 

[DeletedUser]

US school of democracy and free thinking, debate section i see...
Keep on spinning...

lol. This has nothing to do with the argument.

In my country we have a new law that forbids workers to strike outside their factories, they have no right of showing their dissatisfaction or right to fight for their rights. Many of them did not got their salary for months, yet they have no right to protest.
Imagine what, gays have that right.
So if possible do not teach me about situation in MY COUNTRY.

Maybe you should move to a free, democratic country that respects your right to vote on what goes on in your country. Say the United States for example. lol. Do factory workers deserve the right to protest? Yes. Do gays deserve the right to protest? Yes. Just because your country, guessing China or some other dictatorship, bans the protesting of factory workers it doesn't make it right for people to not be allowed to protest social justices. In all governments, the people have the power to change whatever they want.

Don't give me that US nominal bull* that all people are created equal, that is only good to use on forums or election campaigns. Are Lybians, Iraqi or Vietnamese people created equal to you? Are hispanic immigrants equal? Hell they are, those words are just something that sounds good in your head, keeps you as far from reality as possible and makes you feel better about yourself, or it may be that you have absolutely no contact with reality.

In our government's eyes, everyone is created equal. Every citizen of the United States of America, whether black, white, Asian, gay, straight, rich, or poor gets a say in our government. It is truly a shame that some countries feel the need to take away a person's unalienable rights.

You are good at singling things out and changing my posts, I expect great career for you at the fox news. Honestly i had this conversation so many times and can't be bothered to read or watch another spin of how upbringing doesn't affect kids sexuality, it takes special kind of person to believe that, brainless one, and i'm sorry but you don't have adequate audience with me.

Haha. What evidence do you have to support this rude assertion?

As for education and ability to participate in debate, mate i must say you are walking, talking example of a person that doesn't question anything, just goes with the flow. My only conclusion that your brain has a function of balancing your head...

I question things often. For example, right now I am questioning your sanity.

As your rebuttal had very little to do with the argument that I presented and more to do with insulting my country, I had to use what I was given. Please try not to go this far offtopic next time though!

 

[DeletedUser]

lol. This has nothing to do with the argument.

Well you are taking such attitude that it has everything to do with the argument.

Maybe you should move to a free, democratic country that respects your right to vote on what goes on in your country. Say the United States for example. lol. Do factory workers deserve the right to protest? Yes. Do gays deserve the right to protest? Yes. Just because your country, guessing China or some other dictatorship, bans the protesting of factory workers it doesn't make it right for people to not be allowed to protest social justices. In all governments, the people have the power to change whatever they want.

Its Serbia, "democracy" recognized and supported by the US, like so many "democracies" recognized by you we are cesspool of corruption and misery.
Now let me answer you on this. Who has the priority? Workers to be paid for their work and to feed their families or gays to walk around. Its all question of priorities for me, and this is my ONLY problem with gay pride here! Now let me broaden this a bit, lately gay parade was canceled due to security issues, straight away there were crapload of reactions from EU, TV stations and non-government organisations, for workers no one gives a ....
That bugs me...
And let me correct you on this: In all governments, the people have illusion of power to change whatever they want.
oops forgot about immigration issue, its practically impossible to immigrate legaly from here, especially lately.

You should have got that by now...

In our government's eyes, everyone is created equal. Every citizen of the United States of America, whether black, white, Asian, gay, straight, rich, or poor gets a say in our government. It is truly a shame that some countries feel the need to take away a person's unalienable rights.

Now i'm questioning your sanity, this goes only in theory, practically money decides everything. People rights in the US are described very vividly by police interventions on occupy wall street movement.

I question things often. For example, right now I am questioning your sanity.

As your rebuttal had very little to do with the argument that I presented and more to do with insulting my country, I had to use what I was given. Please try not to go this far offtopic next time though!

No you don't, you just think about the things the way you are said to. Thats not too bad i guess, uniformed thinking is your thing, independent thinking is mine.
I guess i went a bit overboard but again you provoked it by calling me uneducated and unfit to debate(and insane ).
Btw while singling out my posts you might have stumbled upon this one, its like i expected you:

in fact if you state your own opinion and its different from what is accepted as a proper attitude towards subject you will be branded as a primitive/homophobic/stupid.

 

[DeletedUser]

... As for adopting it is naturally to expect that gay couple will raise its kid as a gay, and that sounds truly wrong for me.

so then by that logic....'as for adopting it is naturally to expect that straight couples will raise a kid as straight...'

so if straights only raise straights then where do gay people come from?

i'd bet all my cookies that straight people raise more gay people than other gay people do.

I fully agree that the term 'marriage' is a religious thing. People who feel/believe that marriage is only for a man and a woman, shouldn't be fighting/voting influencing government to restrict the same rights and privileges to people who are gay, but should be fighting that government should not recognise straight marriage either. Or like you said, take the wordage of marriage out, call BOTH gay and straight 'marriages' CIVIL UNIONS or DOMESTIC PARTNERSHIPS.

and to whomever it was that said what next let people marry animals because they love them is ludicrous. no one is talking about marrying OUTSIDE OF THEIR SPECIES. We are talking about one adult human being being able to marry another adult human being.

It makes me really sad that you are not allowed to protest injustices in your country. Maybe instead of hating on the gays because for some reason they are allowed to, maybe try and get involved in politics to change that. If your government doesnt work for the people you have a responsibility to change it.