Franklin's Wager

[DeletedUser]

That's is part of what I was trying to get across. Because of the sell, people have a weak, self-interested faith, but they don't have real faith.

On that different scene... tbh, I totally lumped all atheists together, but I can respect your opinions. But, would you say that the wager is a weak or strong reason to believe in God? I have personally never met anyone who decided to believe in God because of the wager, but I know I can't generalize everyone based on people in my environment.

 

[DeletedUser]

That's is part of what I was trying to get across. Because of the sell, people have a weak, self-interested faith, but they don't have real faith.

On that different scene... tbh, I totally lumped all atheists together, but I can respect your opinions. But, would you say that the wager is a weak or strong reason to believe in God? I have personally never met anyone who decided to believe in God because of the wager, but I know I can't generalize everyone based on people in my environment.

Have you actually read through the discussions of the game theory of the wager, or are you arguing what you "want to believe?"

 

[DeletedUser]

Have you actually read through the discussions of the game theory of the wager, or are you arguing what you "want to believe?"

I was referring to how I felt about the wager. There are atheists who think it's weak, and I, a christian, also feel it's weak. I gave explained my viewpoint. You may now discuss how you feel about the wager.

 

[DeletedUser]

There are atheists who think it's weak, and I, a christian, also feel it's weak. I gave explained my viewpoint. You may now discuss how you feel about the wager.

Ah, but it is inextricable from the Christian faith and the selling process thereof. There are lines upon lines in both the Old and New Testaments advocating this line of reasoning, this wager. So whether it is weak or not, it is a core principle of the religion.

 

[DeletedUser]

Ah, but it is inextricable from the Christian faith and the selling process thereof. There are lines upon lines in both the Old and New Testaments advocating this line of reasoning, this wager. So whether it is weak or not, it is a core principle of the religion.

Feel free to post those verses that defend a wager that implies belief in God if ONLY because it's better to "bet" on God's existence rather than his nonexistence. Actually, the line of reasoning the Bible uses advocates belief in God not because it's a better wager than unbelief but because it assumes God's existence, and it asserts, therefore, that it's wise to acknowledge God rather than being ignorant.
In the Bible, the only wager is wagering a man's unbelief with God's judgment.
In P's Wager, it's belief on God is warranted only because it's the best "bet". Not really all that "core".

 

[DeletedUser]

You're using reverse logic there Drew (fallacious reasoning). The Bible imposes the consequence of non-belief, which in itself serves as the means to present the wager and is, in fact, the wager de-facto.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'll give you that it has a wager(I did mention that), but is not the same as Pascal's wager.
The Bible is more definitive on what consequences are there. Pascal can't really say whether there is any definitive consequence other than a probability that it MIGHT be there.

 

[DeletedUser]

Sorry, same thing.

 

[DeletedUser]

Sorry, same thing.

I guess I didn't explain it well enough, then.
The Bible's wager is not one of uncertainty. It doesn't instruct people to believe and then add that they might go to heaven or they might not. On the other hand, to sinners, it's not determined that they might escape judgment. It's affirmative on both views. When a person fits into one of the two groups, they have a clear destination.

This differs from Pascal's Wager in that Pascal doesn't provide a clear destination. It's a gamble that has no real basis for what's going to happen. It's based on chance and risk. If you decide to reject God, either nothing will happen or something will happen (hell). If you accept God, either nothing will happen or something will happen. Being in either group doesn't guarantee anything will happen (the idea that there is no after life), neither does it guarantee nothing will happen (after life).

Recap:Bible is firm on destination
Pascal's Wager is based on chance.

 

[DeletedUser]

I haven't read up on everything discussed here.... I just wanted to add my 2 cents.


I'm not religious. I was forced to believe, as a child, that there is a god watching me at all times. I was forced to attend a christian school until 4th grade, when I was kicked out for swearing at a teacher and bringing a toy gun into school and bringing it out on Friday (during the school's church time)...

My point here is this... Even though I am not religious for my own personal reasons, which mostly have to do with it being forced upon me (and I don't like being forced to do / believe something), I empathize to those who ARE religious. Thomas, are you honestly that callous towards those who do believe in something that you undermine everything other then your personal views?

My fiance is religious. God bless her, because she has something in her that I don't... whether it be my soul is tainted or whatever you want to call it, I simply can't find faith. I've tried so hard for so many years, but no matter how hard I try, I always resort back to the same thought: "The cake is a lie"... I would give ANYTHING to have HALF the faith that my fiance does. I'm deeply scared of death. I know in my heart that when I die, I will "cease to exist", as you put it. Despite the fact that I know that there is no afterlife, when I talk to Amy (my fiance) about her faith, it strengthens me ALMOST to the point where I believe that there truly is a god.


Amy isn't scared of death. Her faith makes it so that instead of being scared of what MAY OR MAY NOT come from afterlife, she is ready to accept whatever her "God" deems fit for the rest of her eternity.


As I've said before... I would give ANYTHING to have this kind of faith. I'm not an atheist because I choose to not accept that there is a God... Things have happened to me in my life that have deeply rooted into the fabric of my existence that deny any sort of faith that may arise. Amy has gone through so much in her life, things that I would never mention on a public forum, yet she STILL has faith.





What I'm trying to say here is this:


Religion isn't meant to be a "one size fits all" type deal... Your ideals and beliefs have a key part in determining how you perceive religions. I know people that are religious that don't necessarily believe in heaven / hell... it is just a way of channeling your stress and hardship in your life into a power that is beyond our understanding. Having faith doesn't mean you believe in God or Allah or Buddha... It is believing that something good can still come out of how much bad there is in ones life. Having faith is believing that no matter what can go wrong, there is still a brighter side to look up to.


I might not be a perfect person, but at least I know enough about myself to have a REASON for not having faith. You, Thomas, seem to reject faith as you cannot accept it as it seems a "fairy tale" to you. For that, I feel sorry for you. If you had a decent reason for arguing religions, I'd hear you out... but knowing that you are only here to undermine people's beliefs is just sad. I hope you grow up some day.

 

[DeletedUser]

Just to touch upon your comments, Peter, having faith that things will get better, but doing nothing about it, is part of the issue I have with the faith-touters. Things happen due to action, not inaction, and it is this, "God will fix my bubu" that bothers me to no end. I watched an ex-gf lose her properties and wealth with that foolish mentality, always tossing God out as if he were going to balance her budget.

Yet even beyond the little, personal things, there are greater responsibilities, to mankind, to the ecosystems, to other life on this Earth. It is this, "God will fix my bubu" mentality that is counterproductive, overall destructive, in that it places no emphasis on actually doing anything. For having faith is not a call to act, it's a call to believe.

Regardless, this thread is about the wager, not about religion as a whole or about faith in particular. Franklin's wager is no different than Pascal's wager, except for being less introspective, more caustic and generally far more egoistic in expression. The wager is not an examination of faith in so much as the motivations behind said faith, or belief, or following, or blind obedience.

 

[Diggo11]

Anyone who thinks God is there to run their lives is mistaken. In short (in my opinion at least) religion advocates one major thing, we are all part of something greater. We should all contribute to this "thing" rather than sit back and demand it do he hard work for us. Sure it will guide us, however it does not control us, we all have individuality. You may call it God, Allah or Brahman and you may have varying beliefs in things like an afterlife, a messiah or savior, but at the end of the day we are judged on our person, not our religion.

As Drew said, anyone who is Christian purely to save their own skin is looked down upon in God's eyes anyway. Someone who has faith because they truly believe is aspired to. However I also strongly appreciate Peter's insight. To go on a rough journey and not find a desired faith is infinitely better than to just save your own skin. If there is a God, Peter will be sitting right beside him one day whilst Pascal wanders lonely through Hell.

 

[DeletedUser]

Can't we just let this thread smuther?

 

[DeletedUser10480]

Once Hellstrom realizes that his 'faith' in socialized economics, in all its forms, is the same as the theists' belief in his god he'll be much the wiser.

Truth is the recognition of reality.....Reality being the operative word.

 

[DeletedUser]

Once Hellstrom realizes that his 'faith' in socialized economics, in all its forms, is the same as the theists' belief in his god he'll be much the wiser.

Truth is the recognition of reality.....Reality being the operative word.

Yes, because there's so much evidence for God.

 

[DeletedUser]

I was referring to how I felt about the wager. There are atheists who think it's weak, and I, a christian, also feel it's weak. I gave explained my viewpoint. You may now discuss how you feel about the wager.

I'll be honest, I have no intention of discussing the wager with someone who is willfully ignorant on the topic.

I don't care how you "Feel" about it...Until you bother to learn the facts of the wager...I will not bother to educate you.

Recap:Bible is firm on destination
Pascal's Wager is based on chance.

Because you've clearly shown that your knowledge of the topic is zero.

 

[DeletedUser10480]

I and Hellstrom are fully willing to believe in god (if you can define it/him) at any time.

We're open minded in that sense.

Tell us what you believe in with this word labelled as 'God'. What is that?

Just don't tell us it is the poodle next door named 'god'...we all know that exists...it craps on my lawn.

Seriously, though. what is this you believe in?

 

[DeletedUser1121]

Do yourself a favour, TF. Go and spend some time with some folks who are near death. Go visit a care home. You will see that those who are close to dying do not fear death. And their religion, or lack thereof, has nothing at all to do with their attitude.

Live long enough and you get to the point where you're ready for not living anymore. You can wake up each morning pleased that you have one more day to enjoy life, but you go to bed each night perfectly content to not wake up again. You no longer have regrets because there is nothing you can do about any of it anyway. You are at peace with what you have become and with how you lived your life.

And this attitude is common among all the very aged, no matter what their religious affiliation. Since the two basic statements upon which you base your entire argument are false, then your entire argument is baseless. And wrong.

True!

Fear of death is worse than death itself.
I have been visiting a care home for quite a while to see relatives. I even talked to people who had near death experiences. They all are in complete peace with life and death regardless their believe.

 

[DeletedUser10480]

Well, that proves it then! He saw somebody one time that had an out of body experience.

(of course, even if that claim were true it wouldn't provide ANY evidence of a god).

===========of course...nobody yet here will post a definition of what the word, 'God' means.

Post a definition of a Unie! or a aslelioellgROTROP!

I believe in the gROTROP!

Now, what is the meaning of my gROTROP!!????