Franklin's Wager

[DeletedUser]

Yep, stole the name from Pascal.
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Even if all religion is false, I have a line of reasoning that proves why we should believe in an afterlife. You may discuss it if you wish.


THE ONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE
One who does not believe in an Afterlife, religious or atheist, has every reason to be terrified of death: there is nothing on the other side. Following death, if they were correct, they will not realize that they are dead, since their mind has ceased to exist. Thus, they spent their life worrying and therefore made themselves feel bad (even if they didn't dwell on death). If they were wrong they will feel pretty foolish worrying about death all those minutes/months/years.

THE ONE WHO DOES BELIEVE
Somebody who does believe in an Afterlife, religious or atheist, can always find comfort in that there is light on the other side. If they were correct, then they will have never had that terror of death and will keep on living. If they were incorrect, they will just be outright dead: they don't know it, though, and didn't have those bad feelings.

MORALS
Some religions believe that if you live well you will be rewarded in the afterlife and if you live badly you will be punished. This can make people act much more moral, as they will be afraid of getting sent to Hell.
Granted, religion has caused many wars and much persecution. Usually, though, that was because somebody used religion as a tool of manipulation or misunderstood the messages of that religion.

 

[DeletedUser]

We already covered this in several other threads.

Your bet is flawed and based on several incorrect assumptions.

 

[DeletedUser]

Seriously though, whoever is the atheist that posts this carp in an attempt to disprove the believers by showing them as fools, please stop it. It's a ridiculous tactic and doesn't really achieve anything.

 

[DeletedUser]

We already covered this in several other threads.

Your bet is flawed and based on several incorrect assumptions.

Then, instead of just being an ___, do tell why it is flawed.

 

[DeletedUser13682]

I think this is different than pascals wager. Its suppoded to give people hope and live a good life. Its not based on wikk you go to heaven if you dir its based on how will you live your life

 

[DeletedUser]

Another basic flaw in this and Pascal's Wager: you both seem to think atheists have no convictions and have no problem throwing aside our beliefs (or lack thereof).

 

[DeletedUser]

If you had no problem throwing aside your beliefs some preacher/imam would have converted you long ago. Tell me a flaw in the logic of this. An actual flaw.

 

[DeletedUser]

If you had no problem throwing aside your beliefs some preacher/imam would have converted you long ago. Tell me a flaw in the logic of this. An actual flaw.

The flaws in your logic are so gapingly obvious as can be.

I realize you will not shut up until I point out some though.

Even if all religion is false, I have a line of reasoning that proves why we should believe in an afterlife. You may discuss it if you wish.

The cake is a lie.

THE ONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE
One who does not believe in an Afterlife, religious or atheist, has every reason to be terrified of death: there is nothing on the other side.

One whom does not believe in an after life need not fear the divine stick.
He may live free without fear of his actions being punished for an eternity by a malevolent deity. This grants a freedom rather than a confining fear.

Following death, if they were correct, they will not realize that they are dead, since their mind has ceased to exist. Thus, they spent their life worrying and therefore made themselves feel bad (even if they didn't dwell on death). If they were wrong they will feel pretty foolish worrying about death all those minutes/months/years.

And there you have it, you base it all on a flawed preconception.

THE ONE WHO DOES BELIEVE
Somebody who does believe in an Afterlife, religious or atheist, can always find comfort in that there is light on the other side.

Or they may be crippled by fear of eternal punishment.

If they were correct, then they will have never had that terror of death and will keep on living. If they were incorrect, they will just be outright dead: they don't know it, though, and didn't have those bad feelings.

Wrong again. Religious folk have all reason to fear the afterlife.
What if they were not good enough?
They believe in the fairytale, and it's not all pink clouds and unicorns.

MORALS
Some religions believe that if you live well you will be rewarded in the afterlife and if you live badly you will be punished.

Vague, as usual, but yes. The divine carrot and stick.
A powerful tool used to manipulate human fear of death to act in certain ways.

The carrot can have them fly a friggin plane into a building, blow themselves up,
and/or slaughter thousands of innocents in the name of god.

This can make people act much more moral, as they will be afraid of getting sent to Hell.

So they control behavior through fear?
Glad we agree.

Granted, religion has caused many wars and much persecution. Usually, though, that was because somebody used religion as a tool of manipulation or misunderstood the messages of that religion.

And that's all you have to say to balance out your argument?

It's the same old story as always, adn your bet is a deeply flawed one.

Edit: Hellstromm on Pascal's wager:

Another part of it, which I like to point out, is that if you're going into a religion because it's better to go for that instead of possibly being wrong and going to hell, you're not acting because you have faith, or because you love your creator, you're acting because you're trying to save your ass --- and, ultimately, it's an act.

You're looking at it from the, "well if I don't believe and I'm right, nothing happens. If I don't believe and I'm wrong, I go to Hell. If I do believe and I'm right, I go to Heaven. If I do believe and I'm wrong, nothing happens. So, it's either nothing or bad if I don't believe, or nothing or good if I do believe." That is the bad wager right there, because the truth is, by making that a wager, you demonstrate that you don't believe, and instead you're choosing what looks to be the better bet. The failure in thinking here is, as soon as you place that bet, you lost.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm not specifically referring to Christian Afterlife. Well, I am, but this means just any Afterlife at all, including reincarnation not influenced by your morals.

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm not specifically referring to Christian Afterlife. Well, I am, but this means just any Afterlife at all, including reincarnation not influenced by your morals.

Is that your supposed to be a counter-argument?
Where exactly did I specify I was talking about christian views of the afterlife?

That's right, I didn't.

 

[DeletedUser]

Fairy tales are fairy tales, regardless of the author.

 

[DeletedUser]

Is that your supposed to be a counter-argument?
Where exactly did I specify I was talking about christian views of the afterlife?

That's right, I didn't.

You mentioned fear of condemnation. This applies to Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism....

But as none of you have yet stated a real reason for why this theory is flawed, you obviously DON'T have one.

 

[DeletedUser]

Personally, I think a person who believes but doesn't live like he does has more reason to fear death than someone who believes that once they die, they're dead.

 

[DeletedUser]

Sure. That's one positive effect of an Afterlife: if you believe in punishment for those who sin, then you will be more likely to follow those morals.

Of course, belief in their virgins/grapes and Paradise is causing my own people to die right now in Afghanistan.

 

[DeletedUser]

Of course, belief in their virgins/grapes and Paradise is causing my own people to die right now in Afghanistan.

That isn't racist and immoral in anyway

 

[DeletedUser]

This thread still going on? Thomas, your post was so ridiculous, I didn't bother pointing out just how idiotic your arguments were, and posing your name on it is a bit egotistical, don't you think? Whatever, here, have a rebuttal:

THE ONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE
One who does not believe in an Afterlife, religious or atheist, has every reason to be terrified of death: there is nothing on the other side. Following death, if they were correct, they will not realize that they are dead, since their mind has ceased to exist.

The fear imposed in the Judeo-Christian religions is far worse than ceasing to exist. In said religions, if you fail to abide by the impossibly strict moral code, you are subject to condemnation, purgatory, hell, sheol, hades. Your only salvation is to ask for forgiveness every time you molest a choirboy, and of course there's no guarantee, so you end up living your entire life in fear of the consequence. After all, there is a reason why they claim to be "God fearin' Christians."

Anyway, I don't fear death. What's to fear? I cease to exist, so what?

MORALS
Some religions believe that if you live well you will be rewarded in the afterlife and if you live badly you will be punished. This can make people act much more moral, as they will be afraid of getting sent to Hell.

See, you just contradicted yourself. The fear of, "getting sent to Hell," I'm sure is far more frightening than merely ceasing to exist, and here you are essentially claiming such.

For the most part, people behave morally and ethically based on the rules and expectations of the society they live in --- and on their upbringing, which is also based on the rules and expectations of the society they live in that were previously imposed on those who reared them. If such were not the case, then the ratio of religious folk to non-religious folk in prisons would be far less than the numbers indicate (contraindicated by the higher ratio of Judeo-Christians to athiest-agnostics incarcerated in U.S. prisons as opposed to living free in society).

Your wager falls flat on facts. But really, you didn't present your own wager, it's still Pascal's Wager. You merely presented lame excuses on why someone should participate in a bad bet. You're still acting for selfish ends, which won't get you through those imaginary pearly gates.

 

[DeletedUser]

You mentioned fear of condemnation. This applies to Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism....

But as none of you have yet stated a real reason for why this theory is flawed, you obviously DON'T have one.

Just because you don't get it, doesn't mean the reasons haven't been stated.

 

[DeletedUser]

(Me vainly looks at self in mirror)
What, did you say something about my ego?

Anyways, I see this is going nowhere.
But suppose you don't believe in punishment for sin, just an Afterlife. Maybe reincarnation.



David, that is not a stereotype. I seem to recall two morons from America trying to join the "jihad" so that they could get their "virgins". My own people, I admit, pillaged and slaughtered (probably raped as well) on the promise of Heaven.

 

[DeletedUser]

(Me vainly looks at self in mirror)
What, did you say something about my ego?

Anyways, I see this is going nowhere.
But suppose you don't believe in punishment for sin, just an Afterlife. Maybe reincarnation.

Sin is a bogus concept created by humans to control humans.
There is no after-life.

 

[DeletedUser]

THE ONE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE
One who does not believe in an Afterlife, religious or atheist, has every reason to be terrified of death: there is nothing on the other side.

THE ONE WHO DOES BELIEVE
Somebody who does believe in an Afterlife, religious or atheist, can always find comfort in that there is light on the other side.

Do yourself a favour, TF. Go and spend some time with some folks who are near death. Go visit a care home. You will see that those who are close to dying do not fear death. And their religion, or lack thereof, has nothing at all to do with their attitude.

Live long enough and you get to the point where you're ready for not living anymore. You can wake up each morning pleased that you have one more day to enjoy life, but you go to bed each night perfectly content to not wake up again. You no longer have regrets because there is nothing you can do about any of it anyway. You are at peace with what you have become and with how you lived your life.

And this attitude is common among all the very aged, no matter what their religious affiliation. Since the two basic statements upon which you base your entire argument are false, then your entire argument is baseless. And wrong.