Fort Battle Class Adjustment

[DeletedUser]

I say NO to this idea, everyone has the chance to pick duellist as char class on a new world, and still most players on w15 picked soldiers class, so they shouldn't whine about getting crit.

This isn't about changing dueller...this is about discouraging high health. The dueller class change is proposed to make up for the fact that their bonus is given to everyone...it's a side-effect.

And most players who know what they're doing on w15 picked dueller class (6 in the top 15 players are duellers, and that's a good indication of the "best" players). This doesn't nerf duellers (they can specific target high health players to still do more damage), this just adds a penalty to fat health.

-- Pete.

(I picked Soldier on w15 because I wanted to duel, and I loved the +Tactics bonus...then they completely changed duelling. Doh.)

 

[DeletedUser]

People seem to be missing the point which myself and Kraaky have both made: Criticals are the only way currently to combat high/pure HP build Soldiers.
I can't see how 'more' Crits from all players will convince soldiers to have 'less' health since the current way to combat Duelers has been to stick the High HP guys in their LOS with the snipers etc protected behind - so you'd just get even higher tanks at the front wouldn't you?!

Well, to give away a trade secret...I personally prefer to have lower health players inbetween myself and duellers, and I currently move specifically around the battle field to minimise dueller LoS on me. I would much prefer it if other people took the dueller hits, and if I tank/block the "safer" folks with my high hitpoints.

This would discourage high health because higher health wouldn't be a linear increase any more in the number of hits that you could take - crits would mean that having too much health would mean you'd potentially be massively hurt with every single hit.

Also where people are talking about the "player aim" function and how it would ruin low-health-sniping I think you're also missing part of the point, which is: You'd still need to have LOS on whoever you aim at!!

Oh, of course! I'd agree, you can only target people in LoS - otherwise it would be too imbalanced...

-- Pete.

 

[DeletedUser]

Therefore I believe players will be more focused on the other skills involved in fort battling. Such as leadership will become important again, as people will want to be bumped less. Also leadership helps aiming and dodging, therefore I believe we will see much higher leadership values, dodging values, and aiming values. Yes I know the skills mean very little right now, but I still don't see people beefing up with the new crits.

Thus far, your solution is mostly damage-based. Wouldn't you think it would be better if the current x ^ 0.4 bonus became x ^ 0.5 or higher? This will definitely lead to more points being put in the other skills.

 

[DeletedUser28620]

This isn't about nerfing duellers (far from it, it's about giving them a new cool bonus), this is about nerfing health - at the moment health is overpowered in fort battles compared to all other fort skills.
-- Pete.

How can you say that duelers shouldnt be nerfed, they take all boxes in battles regardless of their skill set or weapon... It's very hard for any other class to get any boxes now... The dueler, which is supposed to be the best class for dueling, is in fact the best class for fort fighting too. They can deal 1000+ dmg at lvl 10 and that's ok in your opinion...

 

[DeletedUser]

The problem is you're all not seeming to grasp how the Health vs Critical system works. Having less health will NOT be an advantage.

Lets take an example of a 10K HP Soldier, and a 2K HP Soldier.
They get shot at by someone who does 200Damage + Crit chance.
The 10K HP soldier would lose 1200HP and the 2K one would lose 400HP.
So worst case scenario if they got hit, and got hit with Crits, every round then the 10K one would last 9 hits, but the 2K one would only last 5 rounds, so Higher HP is still an advantage.
On the other side lets say that the person shooting at them scores 200 and hits them 50% of the time, and scores a Crit on 1 out of every 10 of the shots that land.
So for the 10K HP Soldier in the first 20 rounds he'd get hit 10times for 200, and 1time for a Crit of 1000. At that rate he'd last about 35 rounds. But for the 2K HP Soldier he'd last a max of 20rounds, possibly less depending on which rounds hit got the Crit.

Now lets give 'everyone' the chance to score Crits, it just means more people taking 10% + normal damage off of people. Just because your HP is lower does not mean a Critical Hit is less of an issue, you lose 10% of whatever you have. But if you have lower HP then each "normal" hit is more of an issue. 200+HP lost every round from a normal hit is a lot for someone who only has 2KP HP, then the 'much higher risk' of a Crit since more people now have the chance to do that type of damage.
So yes High HP players would die more quickly - BUT SO WOULD LOW HP!

Yes you can argue that using AP/SP for 'fort skills' rather than 'health' will reduce the chance of you getting hit or bumped to the front etc - but the reason people started going to High/Pure Health builds was because they noticed that Health was a far more reliable 'skill' than stamina/dodge etc which are hard to quantify and don't seem to stack up well against Health - stick the same number of heavily "skilled" against heavily "Healthed" and people say that the health ones would always win. (That's the real imbalance!)
So giving more people more Crits would actually disadvantage "Low" HP players more than it would the higher ones wouldn't it??

 

[DeletedUser]

Thus far, your solution is mostly damage-based. Wouldn't you think it would be better if the current x ^ 0.4 bonus became x ^ 0.5 or higher? This will definitely lead to more points being put in the other skills.

Yes, someone who sees the light

 

[DeletedUser23629]

Well said firefly, and I understand your point. Maybe it would be better to combine what rice farmer said and this new idea?

Raise the skill points from ^0.4 to ^0.5 while at the same time adding in the critical hits. This would influence players to move away from health more than anything, and still spread the damage and boxes among the classes. While at the same time still giving all classes a unique advantage.

Maybe even throw in the idea of giving a similar quest that players got when they changed the dueling rules? All skill points on health will be given back to all players after they complete the quest. This would also greatly influence players to steer away from tanking it.

 

[DeletedUser]

I reckon you'd be better off bringing in your "Player Aim" idea, reducing the Dueler critical % chance slightly, and changing the ^0.4 to something higher, and NOT giving criticals to everyone.
SO:
Player Aim would allow for targeting 'fatties'
A 'slight' % Critical reduction (maybe to 7.5%?) would help equalize the damage done a bit more.
Increasing the ^0.4 to something that means a Health vs Skill would be a 'close run thing' would make "Skills" more attractive than health, or at least not totally worthless.

Do those 3 things and I think you might have a winner on your hands!

 

[DeletedUser28620]

I reckon you'd be better off bringing in your "Player Aim" idea, reducing the Dueler critical % chance slightly, and changing the ^0.4 to something higher, and NOT giving criticals to everyone.
SO:
Player Aim would allow for targeting 'fatties'
A 'slight' % Critical reduction (maybe to 7.5%?) would help equalize the damage done a bit more.
Increasing the ^0.4 to something that means a Health vs Skill would be a 'close run thing' would make "Skills" more attractive than health, or at least not totally worthless.

Do those 3 things and I think you might have a winner on your hands!

but firefly, this would mean even MORE damage done by duelers. They will always target pure hp, thus dealing more crits every battle, and with the ^0.5 idea they would have more hit chance and less misses. So duelers will have even More boxes More exp and More total damage. Nice balance idea good job!

 

[DeletedUser]

The problem is you're all not seeming to grasp how the Health vs Critical system works. Having less health will NOT be an advantage.

It's not to give low health people an advantage...it's to just reduce the advantage of having high health.

Right now (assuming no crits, and an average hit of 300 damage):
Someone with 2000 hp will die after 7 shots (2100 damage)
Someone with 6000 hp will die after 20 shots (6000 damage)
Someone with 12000 hp will die after 40 shots (12000 damage)

If everyone has a 10% crit rate/damage:
Someone with 2000 hp will die after 6 shots (5x300 normal shots + 1x500 crit shot [if they're unlucky]) - this is 14% reduction in the number of hits they can take.
Someone with 6000 hp will die after 16 shots (14x300 normal shots + 2x900 crit shots [if they're unlucky]) - this is a 20% reduction in the number of shots they can take
Someone with 12000 hp will die after 28 shots (25x300 normal shots + 3x1500 crit shots [if they're unlucky]) - this is a 30% reduction in the number of shots they can take

High health will of course survive longer than low health, but it reduces the impact of their health somewhat. If you still apply a 10% crit rate, and increase the damage to +15% health of damage instead of +10% of health damage then the affect on high health players becomes even more dramatic.

-- Pete.

 

[DeletedUser]

You know what,i like the way the game is - You decide what to do,you decide what to skill,you decide who you are and so... except one thing - there is a restriction for deciding what you want to be in the game

I've started on one world (my dueler) since class fort bonuses were added and I started on most worlds before there were even forts or class quests. Should I have been able to predict that duelers would suddenly not suck because of a bonus in an aspect of the game that didn't exist when I started?

 

[DeletedUser28620]

You cant be serious Pete. Did you miss the post where Cedric made 1866 dmg with a single shot? You want to raise it to 15% of total health so he could deal 2500 dmg with a single shot?

 

[DeletedUser]

I see what you're saying FPete, it still means that you last longer with higher HP than you do with higher Skills, which is the real imbalance. So what I'm saying is instead of increasing the damage to everyone (including low health), if you allow duelers to target people, and also make Skills more effective, then Duelers will likely target high HP to get more damage done, and people with lower health will last longer due to their skills working better - so it'll be more of a disincentive to go heavy on HP than to just damage 'everyone' more.

 

[DeletedUser28620]

I see what you're saying FPete, it still means that you last longer with higher HP than you do with higher Skills, which is the real imbalance. So what I'm saying is instead of increasing the damage to everyone (including low health), if you allow duelers to target people, and also make Skills more effective, then Duelers will likely target high HP to get more damage done, and people with lower health will last longer due to their skills working better - so it'll be more of a disincentive to go heavy on HP than to just damage 'everyone' more.

I can't believe what firefly is saying, that pure HP should die faster than low HP... Are you drunk?
And making the duelers even stronger than they are now is your solution to all the problems omg...

 

[DeletedUser563]

No it will make the boxes associated with most damage inflicted impossible for other fort classes. For example a semi hp tank dueler with a bayonet/GG can search out weaker players and constantly hit them. As their dodging ratios would be significantly lower than for example the level 120 adventurer he was initially closest to he would hit more making it impossible for other classes to compete with him. Secondly positioning your standing behind 20 players and get hit by 20 opponents . You placed yourself strategically correct but because of an update its tickets for you in the 3rd round. Lastly weaker players can be targeted to bring down numbers if say 3 duelers split target a 1000hp level 50 player they KO him in one round notwithstanding his protection. If such a thing is considered it would be better to make it a few rounds apart and for all classes. For example every consecutive 5th round odd round the attackers can target and every consecutive 5th consecutive even round the defenders can target. Other options can be like a magic up in other games so you can build up your targeting powers each consecutive rounds you dont use magic bolt or whatever you wanna call it builds up say at 5 rounds saved you can target 1 player 1 - 2- 3 normal targeting 4 you can choose a sector 5 player and then till 10 player + 10% hit chance. This would of course means you have to figure out another bonus for the dueler or just lower the targeting numbers for him or whatever.

 

[DeletedUser]

Everyone seems to be forgetting how drastically GG stacking affected fort battles when it became possible with the spread of GGs and how equally drastically they were changed when stacking was removed. Part of it was that ground sectors were turned into giant towers, but the extra damage was every bit as much of a factor as the attack bonus.

 

[DeletedUser]

I can't believe what firefly is saying, that pure HP should die faster than low HP... Are you drunk?
And making the duelers even stronger than they are now is your solution to all the problems omg...

No I'm not saying High HP die faster than Low HP. I'm saying that currently Skills don't benefit players as genuinely as HP does, so if you balanced that out a bit then someone with a high Dodge skill for instance would get hit a lot less often than someone with 0 dodge and high Health.
And while I like the "Player Aim" feature I've already said that I think 'reducing' the Dueler Critical from 10% chance to possibly 7.5% chance would be fairer to stop Duelers from constantly topping out the damage done charts, so I think those 2 changes 'made together' would equal out somewhat, but would enable a nice new feature of being able to aim someone specific.

IF you were going to bring in 'critical hits' for all player classes as has been suggested, then my suggestion for making that actually be the "heavy health disincentive" that it's intended to be, would be to change the way Crits work. So instead of having 10% HP 'plus' standard damage make it "the higher of 10% damage OR standard hit"
So for someone doing 300damage per shot if they hit a 10K tank instead of getting 1300 damage they'd do 1000 damage, but if they hit a 2k player the game would say 'higher of 300 or 200' so they'd still do 300 damage - this would mean that Crits would only be a problem for people with higher HP, and there would be a genuine incentive to NOT go for high health

 

[DeletedUser]

Hi, it seems to me that we are talking about two (somewhat related, but really) distinct things in the same topic:
a) do we wish for some change wrt fort battles so it doesn't come down to most HP?
b) currently duelers get most of the steel lined boxes, this should change.

For a) I say: I agree, health is too important, it should be nerfed in some way but it should remain plausible to spec with high health to get an advantage in FF:s

For b) I say: I have no idea if this is true or not. If it is, there are lots of ways to handle that without messing with the mechanics of FF:s, the obvious one is to change the way boxes are handed out in a class-neutral way.

I ask that we continue talking about a) here and maybe another topic can be started for b). (The reason I don't care aout b) is that I wont get steel-boxes anyway, unless they become completely random

/Edlit

 

[DeletedUser23629]

A) Yes that is the main issue at hand, is that health points is just getting to be too much.

B) The main part to this is the distribution of damage. Since this is the most important part to getting boxes, that is why the steel was brought up. Everything around a battle revolves around damage. The experience, the boxes, and westforts.

 

[DeletedUser]

You don't think that having every single hit to be a potential crit isn't a massive nerf to soldiers' health?

Any soldier tanking up will find that they survive MUCH less time than they currently do.

-- Pete.

My dear... If you want to soften me then instead of overpowering soldiers... again... but trying to explain it as it's not just that...
How about leaving crits as dueleronly ability, but giving HP and leadership bonuses to all classes?

What did you say? No? You don't want all classes to get health and leadership bonus? Now... Am I wrong to assume you're not playing dueler class and want to keep soldier as much overpowered as possible?