Enviornmental Issues...

Red Falcon

Well-Known Member
Hello everyone. I am opening this thread to calmly and peacefully discuss the environment. And as you might guess, the environment is pretty important to me. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the current issues dealing with the environment (Such as global warming) and to state our opinions of what we would do to solve these issues if we had the money, the means, and the knowledge to do so. Comments and observations are welcome as long as the discussion does not get out of hand and turn into an argument.
 

DeletedUser

We're doomed!!!!

or...

What a bunch of rubbish!!!

Those are the two disparate stances on this issue. One argues it is too late because we spent too much time arguing the legitimacy of scientific research, the other argues it is all a capitalist-motivated fabrication to unseat the oil magnates and create a new dynasty of fat catz.

Personally, I'm moving back to Argentina, as I'm firmly in the, "it's too late, ya buncha ignorant njubs" camp.
 

DeletedUser16008

We have the means and the knowledge, what we don't have is any real interest in using it nor the will to do anything substantial about it.

Case in point Canada blew out the kyoto summit and pulled out entirely.

The decision to do so will save the government an estimated $14 billion in penalties, Kent said. The government says it has no choice given the economic situation.The cost to staying in Kyoto is "absolutely" made up, she added.

Kent says Canada produces less than two per cent of global carbon emissions, Kyoto doesn't require major emitters like China or the USA and India to cut the amount of greenhouse gases they produce so it is pointless without such major nations signed up.

Now if you cant get the three biggest polluters to join in your not going to get very far are you ? and thats 10 years of talks with no distinguishable results... the whole thing is a joke which either means we are totally messed up already or its a whole load of propaganda that hasnt sucked enough in.

The current excuse is theres no money to do it...like that would be a problem if there was a real wish to make a change....but you wont do it without the 3 most populated nations on Earth so i guess we are up shtf creek without a paddle.

Its obviously not as important as their little bubbles of power, as they think they will be alright jack so who cares right ? nature and planet earth can wait....... It probably can too, after all the planet will still be here regardless.

Changes are coming one way or the other, and if there is no unity there is no solution.

I won't be going to Argentina tho ill want to be on a different continent to HS :p
 

Red Falcon

Well-Known Member
Hmm...An interesting start to this discussion indeed! Yeah, people can say there's not enough money to take any environmental action, but then what about certain people who have loads and loads of cash on their hands? Really, what are they doing with all they money? Just sitting on top of it, guarding it with their lives day after day? I would hate to think what this world would be coming to if everybody greedily held onto every single penny they had. And to be quite honest, I must agree with Victor Kruger. Yeah, we may have the means and the knowledge, but we need to raise our environmental motivation! We need to take action soon, because if we don't, then I am not very confident about how much longer the human race will last. And yes, I have seen a certain TV show which depicts (Or tries to) what the Earth will be like millions of years later, although something very different might become of our world in a million years...
 

DeletedUser

Meh, who cares about a few million years, we should be caring about the next few hundred! As a viable ecosystem and greenhouse, this planet is already on the first stage of an environmental abortion. Lucky me I have my peanuts and towel.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser30834

Victor,

Kyoto was never really about limiting carbon production and saving the environment. It has always been about a redistribution of wealth. Of the 150 some countries who has signed onto it, only 37 have any limits on their carbon emissions. Of those countries with limits, they do not have to count emissions form goods produced in the countries without limits. You brought up india and China, The majority of western Europe have more then tripled their imports from India and china in efforts to reach their limit goals the last time I bothered checking (2007 or so). When Kyoto was created, china and India where not major polluters- but because of it, and the US wanting cheaper goods, it is. When the Kyoto accords were originally being developed, there was several groups attempting to push first world governments to forgive the third world debt created over the oil embargo crisis of the 1970's. Whether you want to believe global warming is real, serious, or whatever, the fixes purposed by governments to date are more about control, redistribution of wealth, and other motives. This is also why some people do not trust the science and thing it a fabricated issue to push political motivations through.

Seriously think about that/this for a minute and ignore the others jumping in to prove their devotion to the church of global warming until after you have digested it. Now, if there was something seriously or potentially threatening to the world, do you think addressing it directly would be the most appropriate path, or forcing separate entities to adddress it on their own and allow them to skirt around the issue altogether by moving manufacturing outside their countries. Even the democrats in the US who claim we need to do something about global warming want to take the separate entity paths with their cap and trade schemes that do little but stop the poor people from participating in the same stuff the more wealthy can. It's almost as if they are saying we will punish you until you figure it out.

On the other hand, if it was serious, or they were serious about fixing the issues, then why wouldn't they create a scientific and engineering team that is a collaboration of all the counties concerned about the problem and have as it's main goal to be finding a safe, viable, clean form of energy and ways to restrict the carbon emissions of existing technology, then lease this information or make it available to anyone interested for a very small royalty so they can implement it. Perhaps as part of the collaboration, the countries could require the implementations of the technology within a certain amount of years for all new sources of production.

I mean if global warming is such a threat, then we should be asking why the supposed solutions do not address the issue directly rather then attempt to force others to eventually address it under some penalty system.

Canada was right to pull out of Kyoto. The system has been hijacked from the start by people with objectives other then finding solutions to global warming.
 

DeletedUser

oh that's just balogne

The U.S., didn't sign up, nor even participate in the accords because Bush Jr., was in office at the time and he specifically indicated he didn't believe in Global Warming. This is revisionist history on your part Sumdumbass. I was very much watching the play-by-play of these events.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser30834

lol.. please show me where I said anything about the US signing up. I spoke to the flaws with Kyoto and little more.

I'm sorry you are blinded from praying at the church of global warming. But that doesn't mean anything I have said is wrong.

Or are you somehow trying to claim that Kyoto puts limits on all the countries that signed up, that it doesn't allow countries with limits to not count their exported manufacturing against their emissions totals, or the western Europe didn't increase their trade with china and india and other countries outside the Kyoto emissions caps. I would hope not, you would be wrong.
 

DeletedUser30834

I guess reading comprehension not your strong point?

There is no confusion on my end. The solutions to global warming is part of the thread and I pointed out that what most people think is the solution is- was just a smoke screen. And guess what, burried inside there, I offered a solution of my own too.
 

DeletedUser

I guess grammer is not your strong point....

Politicians are the ones in power, not the scientists...which is why nothing significant is being implemented, despite all the credible evidence pointing towards climate change being a very real threat.
 

DeletedUser30834

lol.. and the so called scientists supported Kyoto too.

Whether it is a real threat or not, or how much of a threat it is, is another discusion completely. I simply pointed to the current so called solutions and pointed to their flaws because the process was hijacked.
 

DeletedUser

Hmm, 98% of all climate scientists are "so-called" scientists? Not a very convincing attempt at character assassination there Sum.
 

DeletedUser30834

lol.. Are you sure it is 98% of all scientists who supports the Kyoto accords? Or is your knee jerking so hard it hit your head and you thought I was talking about scientists and global warming?

I would like to see your sources on that if it is all scientist support the Kyoto protocol.

edit: There is a difference between scientists supporting the issue that Kyoto was claiming to cover, verses supporting the actual agreement as implemented. I hope you are not one of those people who automatically assume something is good because it's associated with one of your championed caused. I mean I have some green firewood I can sell you.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

Sumdumbass, in this thread you're attempting the same tactic you always do. You pose fantasies (conspiracy theories), without providing anything to substantiate your allegations. Then, when anyone indicates the obvious, which is that you're posting fantasies, you tell them to prove a magical unicorn doesn't exist.

No Sumbdumbass, the burden of proof is on you. Prove it does exist.



edit: (( I'm referring to all your posts on this thread, not merely your last post))
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser30834

Sumdumbass, in this thread you're attempting the same tactic you always do. You pose fantasies (conspiracy theories), without providing anything to substantiate your allegations. Then, when anyone indicates the obvious, which is that you're posting fantasies, you tell them to prove a magical unicorn doesn't exist.

No Sumbdumbass, the burden of proof is on you. Prove it does exist.



edit: (( I'm referring to all your posts on this thread, not merely your last post))
I'm sorry, I thought you were versed in the kyoto accords and modern history. Read it, there are even sights out there with commentary that will help you digest them.

While you are at it, answer these questions. You can Google search some of them.
Here is a start from one of my favorite conservative websites
http://www.commondreams.org/views/041000-104.htm
And here is one straight from the horses mouth.
http://www.jubileedebtcampaign.org.uk/?lid=282

1: What is Jubilee 2000
2: What was their goal
3: why did Al Gore support them
4: how many of the 40 or so countries that were recognized as part of jubilee 2000 were involved with the formation of the Kyoto treaty.
5: why did Jubilee 2000 dissolve all the sudden once the majority of western Europe committed to the Kyoto protocol
6: how many other organizations with similar goals existed at the time with political representation in the majority of countries involved with the creation of Kyoto.

Here are some bonus questions you can easily find and should already know.
1: how many countries are in the schedule 1 parts of the kyoto and have limitations on their emissions
2: how does Kyoto address moving manufacturing into a non capped country.
3: what was china and india's carbon emissions before Kyoto and what are they now.
4: why are they members of the kyoto treaty but do not have emissions caps.

If you know the answers to this, then it is likely you know what I said is true. If you do not know about it, then there is a decade or two in which you were sleeping that has allowed you to become a blind follower or your pet cause. You seem to be so blinded by the following of the church of global warming that you think anything associated with it has to be good or something.

I posed the question earlier about what was more likely to get results- collectively working on a solution and allowing that solution to be implemented at a low cost (because global warming is a real threat and needs addressed) or by imposing the threat of penalties on some countries but not all of them if they do not find ways to independently reduce harmful emissions (because Global warming is a real threat and needs addressed).

We already know the second option is a failure. what brought it about was a post stating Canada's position on it and how they have not been able to reduce emissions and pulled out entirely because they didn't offshore enough of their pollution and faced arbitrary penalties. That alone should be enough for you to at least consider the possibility of Kyoto being broken and a tool for another design. But this brings up another question, who would Canada pay the penalties to and what would they be used for under Kyoto.

If Google isn't a strong point for you, you can always look here.
http://unfccc.int/cooperation_and_support/financial_mechanism/adaptation_fund/items/3659.php
Yes, the penalties go into the adaptation fund which is a giant slush fund to develop third world countries and make them viable in the changing global environment.

If you take 2 and add it to 2, you get 4.
 

DeletedUser

So where's your proof? Again, you've acted only to feed your conspiracy theory with additional questions and inferences, the core tactic of a conspiracy theorist.

At the core, you make tenuous connections to feed the supposition that the Kyoto Protocol was something other than. What becomes quite evident is that you have no concrete evidence, only talking point assertions. So while Climate Change continues to march its ugly march, conspiracies are fueled to undermine any efforts at productive resolution. And while you're arguing inferences, I actually have evidence demonstrating ExXon and other oil megas have been financially supporting organizations fueling said conspiracies.
 
Top