Default! Let's shake things up

DeletedUser

Argentina did it in 2000. Ten years later they were able to payoff all their loans from the money they saved and the growth they created from those reinvested savings.

Soooo, why not the U.S. default on their loans from China? For those of you who might have looked into the numbers, the U.S. would come out WAY ahead on such an action. Granted, the nation's credit rating would plummet, but who cares!?! The U.S. would end up with surplus revenue and be firmly in the green.

How about every nation default on China's loans!?! Perfect time really, particularly with China reasserting its claims over the Asian-Pacific and tripling their military investments. We wait too long, they'll not only own the world, they'll forcibly rule the world.


Right, let's hear your thoughts...
 

DeletedUser

Stop paying on a loan(s), and stop paying off the interest.

In the case with Argentina, they stopped, then returned to the loans ten years later and payed them off. Can't quite say that is what would happen if the U.S. stopped paying...
 
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DeletedUser15057

'Default' would mean US being able to pay for its upcoming 'social security' tsunami, plus a bit of loose change left to help fund the oncoming conflict with, and invasion of Iran!!
 

DeletedUser9470

defaulting is not an option for the usa. the consequences would be dramatic.

-UAE would turn their backs and look towards china which would lead to a huge oil inflation (paying cash is difficult when you havent got any)
-loss of huge lucrative contracts which would sway in chinas favour.
-poor credit rating means high interest rates with more RE depreciation.
and so on and so forth down the spiral...

the only reason why the usa is still keeping its head above water is because of trust.
you lose that trust and immediately usa would go under.

looks to me like there are 2 solutions:
-go to war with middle east to rape them for their resources.
-usa actually gets off their behind and started doing some work.

War has become a very dangerous strategy that could very quickly backfire.
so it looks like the holidays are over for you!

:laugh:
 

DeletedUser

Yea, let's default cuz credit ratings are over-rated......the downgrade from a few months ago was just a slap on the wrist.....
 

DeletedUser

Neo, try bothering to indicate how you came to those conclusions. There's absolutely nothing presented in your post that validates your claims, thus it looks like you're presenting a slippery slope fallacy. Prove me wrong.
 

DeletedUser16008

Interesting can of worms there Hells, you are asking about total financial anarchy and probable monetary revolution ... NICE ..... so what do you wish to discuss first ?

The difference between Argentine and its economy, power or military & profile compared to the US ?

The fact that the US has ( with the help of certain families ) got its debt exactly where certain people of financial interest want it and the last thing they will do is default at this stage. ?

All credibility of being a leading power goes out the window for ever more if it defaults.

Regarding Paranoia and China, the US created the problem a long time ago as with so many other regimes check out General George Marshall and his role in bringing Communist China to power in the first place.

So China are going to flex their military Muscles and are building up to it. That it will end in conflict is almost a given but not until they are fully ready, time is of no consequence to China.

If America defaulted then it would cease to be as the military might in the world, its home economy may survive but its ability to finance its world stage would collapse, the Arab league freed of the financial ties would probably turn away from the petro dollar ... and dont forget the US has been to war twice over that already, once with Saddam for seeking to trade petrol in euros and the second with Gaddafi for moving towards the gold Dinar and setting up an Arab oil cartel to be traded not in dollars.

Your simple innocent question is huge hells.

One thing is certain the US debt is unserviceable and unpayable, but so what, so is half the planet, eg no one gives a rats about the third world debt they have left them in permanent economic slavery of which the US is largely responsible for at least refusing to write off those debts as a show of world leadership to other nations.

In short if the US defaults id expect it to result in world wide chaos and probably collapse an awful lot of society & nations as we know it. Bring it on if you relish the thought of global conflict, starvation, financial and possibly other man made disasters etc and global chaos.

Its not a question so much as if but when and the manner its done..... yes defaulting asap would be best for the US and probably the world over, The world is financially sick and needs nothing less than total change.... except it wont happen, it'll just blunder on until it implodes and every turn will be tweaked and manipulated by the power players to their own ends.

Its got to fold at some point anyway to allow for new growth and to evolve past this insanity and obsession for something that does not exist in anything but mans imagination ...... money ..... bring it on I say, take the pain & lets all face the coming storm before it sweeps everyone away anyway.
 

DeletedUser25606

pretty much what victor said would be the outcome ,it's narrow sighted to say the least to default.

what's really intresting is the current chess game bieng played with currency

in the past if a county got into trouble with debt a common policy/fix is to devalue your dollar and push your manufactoring/ export market (recent history example ,bush administration) ,you get a boost domesticaly and cut your debt ,a drop in 10 cents of the value of your currency (for example) instantly wipes off billions in your debt , who you owe to ,with what they lose ,often resulting in a intrest rate drop ,consequentialy raising thier dollar value resulting in a further saving , its a back and forth ripple effect.

this is were history repeats , a few times really ,if you back as far to the 30's, but a good recent history example is the 80's , Japan and America fighting it out financially to be the global econmonic force with america bieng a massive investor in japan ,then the biggest stock market in the world , Japan's economy was overheating ,made move to raise intrest rates ( one of the first steps to drop currency value) ,america actually threatened trade sanctions ,they didnt want the money to stay in japan , but what this did was to bubble japans market ,it burst in the early 90's and japan has never really recovered.

the tables are turned ,now its China that holds that power over america ,and this is were china has been brilliant : china's tied its dollar to america ,meaning if america drops its dollar there is no saving ,also china knows all too well the status quo america will always have with oil ,its a massive percentage of american imports ,for that reason ,coupled with china's currency value merge , its been effectivly been made a dead end ,and as far as global economic wrangling goes , it's masterful

the problem's a fundamental part of capatalism , for it to work , no matter what else is going on ,debt needs to be created , and paid . therein lies the fault ,america is at a stage where it cant possibly ever pay this debt ( and its worth noting at this point that china isnt america's only big investor , its the just the big investor that has stopped buying america's debt )

it's hard to know what steps America will take , to say it'll do nothing , i think would be pretty naive , but as we rapidly come to what's come to be tagged the "end game " ,i think if any big moves are to be made ,we'll see them soon.

( for a really good ,but bleak, general read on world economic power shifts and markets in the last 50 yrs , "how the west was lost" dambisa moyo)
 
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DeletedUser

Not like doing nothing and letting China take over the world is going to do us any better.
 

DeletedUser16008

jarpenguin said:
Not like doing nothing and letting China take over the world is going to do us any better.
Click to expand...

Since when has China bothered with the rest of the world ? its borders maybe but China is only interested in one thing .... trade

What the west has failed to do with force the East will achieve with trade, and thats world dominance.

When one runs a huge deficit and supports it by force while the other trades with a surplice and entices with deals and trade where did you think it would end up ?

Thats not to say that sometime in the future China won't consider whats left worth fighting for mind you...... however you can be certain that on the current and for that matter historical thinking of the west the only answer is to take by force what others have ......

Thats also not to say that China won't have huge problems because it will, it has also increased its monetary supply but nothing like the west .... yet.... and its contingency plan is hoarding real assets.

http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_12/schoon010412.html

Getting back to defaulting ... it is going to happen anyway. The current monetary system is rotten to the core.....right now there is a transfer of wealth going on like never before and ALL in fiat currency are losing ... you want to protect what you have ? buy gold and silver or arable land, hard assets or something tangible and if you dont believe me just go and check what countries are stacking by the tonne and investing in all of the afore mentioned.

Case in point look at the physical price of gold and silver compared to the paper trade of it. Physical REAL Precious Metals are far above the paper version... Why ? because paper is worthless and REAL isnt.

Right now gold is $1600 and silver $29 this year gold will probably be $2000 and silver in the $40s....last year the US and Canada mined less than the silver it sold for the first time yet sales are up 300% in the last few years, that should tell you somethings well out of kilter. China and the like are stacking and saving the west is still selling and spending ... apart from the smart ones who are also hording ..... now why do you suppose that is ? becuase they all know fiat money is dead in the water thats why... those holding real worth will be safe and those that are holding paper will be in real trouble.... at that point all bets are off and so am i.

My reckoning by the end of this decade gold will have hit $5000 + and silver $100 but if the fundamentals follow history then silver will be $300 + as history shows that silver should be 15 - 1 not its current 55 - 1 yet silver is actually rarer than gold due to its uses in industry losing it while virtually all the gold ever mined on the planet still exists, it SHOULD be closer at 1 - 1 it could go to $1000+........ don't think it can happen ? nor do I but then go look at the past trading prices for Rhodium over the last 15 years and see whats happened to that, supply and demand and silver is mostly lost once used and its used in vast quantities, its in demand and that demand isnt going away even in a recession/depression and the supply is only on par with demand, in fact its growing and world annual production will be in deficit in the next few years..... IMO Its the most under valued commodity on earth right now, both industrial and saving wise and if your smart you'll keep that in mind and buy some.The least youll get is something thats going to double in value in the next few years which is more than any bank rate will give you....and most of all its affordable to all at $29... at the moment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0dODJGm3dM you tell me ..... with the effort it takes to make a gramme of the stuff let alone an oz for $29 its a steal.

Oh btw China are opening a gold trading system Called PAGE (Pan Asia Gold Exchange)... it is apparently to run opposite the COMEX and SLV and GLD but will be ALLOCATED 1 - 1 with REAL GOLD and SILVER... any guesses what will happen to the ridiculously leveraged western markets if they can invest in a trustworthy 1 -1 system instead of the leveraged some say is as much as 350 - 1 ?? bye bye COMEX and paper leverage trades.

http://bullmarketthinking.com/ned-n...ice-setting-mechanism-appears-to-be-breaking/

Europe the US, Japan, UK and others will be finished and the rise of the BRICs is certain.... Brazil Russia India China will hold sway like it or not.... You can prepare for the real new world order or you can stick your head in the sand and pretend it'll go away.... but it won't, these countries hold a lot of the resourses and are heavily invested in other places that do... in fact they are buying with cold hard FIAT cash into governments, companies and the like while paper still holds value... funny because really they are paying with worthless paper and will still have the real wealth ( gold and silver ) AND secured their resources AND be in NO DEBT... game, set and match ........

If you look at the money thats been created, printed and put into circulation since 2008 the debts of most western counties have escalated by an unbelievable sum, yet its not made a dent in the world economy crisis , all it does is pay the interest for a few months then its back to square one.... Science teaches us that if you do not get a positive result from a test repeating it the same way always results in the same failure. It then moves on knowing the last theory has been proven WRONG and wont waste their time on it again... but not this bunch of morons ohhhh no.... all they are looking at is their election or next profit while it lasts and that is what will bring it all down ... Greed.

And no im not a survivalist or doomsayer etc im just a realist and have been following this build up for the last 15 years, facts don't lie no matter what they do to spin it...... debt only gets extended as long as your afforded credit, hit your ceiling or you become insolvent ... Obama has asked for the debt limit to be increased by $2 trillion ... he'll get it but it wont last longer than the end of 2012 then what another $3 trillion ? so they get it and itll last another 6 mths then what another $4 trillion ? etc ... nope its all coming to an end, the interest is too high to pay off.. and thats with 0 interest rates ... put them up and $4 trillion wont last 6 mths of the interest... kinda simple to work out, it cannot continue for much longer .... its never been on this scale in world history and it IS coming to an end.

So default or not the result will be the same, the future belongs not to the west, history teaches us nothing stays the same and I hope you have a plan b because what youve known all your lives is going to change and most of it isnt gonna be for the good unless your ready for it. Or do you really still think you can spend your way out of debt by forever creating more debt ??? :no:
 
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DeletedUser

America needs so much to be done to fix it. First of all they should get back to what made it great. Go back to what the founding fathers fought for independence of foreign powers.
How independent can we be if we are relying on foreign powers in order for our economy to function?
What are our biggest problems as a nation? Inflation, immigration, and we do not have moral unity and are losing our common culture.

If I could be in the oval office, I would do everything I could to finish what JFK would have done- bring back the gold standard. If we would stop sending every factory to China we would not have this growing monster. We made a monster and now we have to deal with it. If we took our factories and put them back in America it would solve our job problem. America should go back to the "If you do not work, you will not eat" philosophy that was used in Jamestown. People who are dependent to the government are more likely to be indoctrinated by it and vote for whoever will give them more. Absolute power absolutely corrupts. Our founding fathers were wise to organize the government into 3 parts to prevent one branch from becoming too powerful. Ronald Reagan said "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help." Think about how much money is wasted by giving money to able bodied people who are lazy and will not work. Not only that, but the money that is funded for welfare is lost in the mix. Not even 50% of the money actually gets to the receiver. If the US would close the borders and shoot anyone who dared to come, our immigration problems would be solved. Just put the 82nd Airborne on the borders. Although the jobs they take are manual labor and/or minimum wage pay, those people do not pay taxes as they are in poverty. Their kids get free school and have rights as citizens. Americans have been English speakers. If I moved to China, I would not expect them to learn English. I would do everything I could to learn Chinese. We are losing our common culture. America started out from English pilgrims who wanted religious freedom without persecution. Freedom of religion now has become freedom of saying you are violating my religious freedom by exercising your rights.

BOTTOM LINE: Big government equals big problems.
 

DeletedUser

Actually, it would be better if jobs were created that couldn't be easily out-sourced. Funding public research will lead to innovations which will create jobs and re-establish the US as a world power.
 

DeletedUser

hehe, Speed killz, you should be a comedian. I just couldn't stop laughing at your post.
 

DeletedUser

You could set regulations that benefit companies that would provide Americans jobs. Also NASA should be funded instead of feeding lazy people. NASA created our modern world and technologies. And having a space program that we run instead of relying on the Russians to maintain our satellites would be a good idea.
 

DeletedUser

Hellstromm said:
hehe, Speed killz, you should be a comedian. I just couldn't stop laughing at your post.
Click to expand...
Well, at least i'm not the one who suggested that we just pretend that our debts do not exist and just not pay them.
 

DeletedUser

lol, I posted it as a meaty topic for discussion, not as a grand notion or belief on my part. As to your post, hehe, I'm still chuckling.
 

DeletedUser

Well look at when the country was doing the best economically, they were conservative and not pushing big government. When FDR was starting big government WWII was what made the economy boom. So I have validity to my views. So laugh all you want. Better yet, why don't you post your views.
 
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