Change the stamina skill to improve fortfighting

[DeletedUser]

Zeta, my suggestion of charisma based instead of the dex based skills are that people would only move sp into setting traps which does not really solve the whole problem of hiding being very over trumped by stamina and hp/strength builds being king. By putting 2 factors in charisma, it would make many people move away from pure strength builds, thus fixing 2 problems with 1 throw of a stone.

There is also the fact of who goes hunting (setting traps) whilst trying to capture a fort?

 

[DeletedUser]

Maybe change number of defenders to be equal those in attack?

(by increasing number of defenders, not decreasing number of attackers)

 

[DeletedUser31022]

I'm all for this idea! Spreading the need between all AP really allows more variety of fort fighter builds and I think will bring a more balanced fight.

 

[DeletedUser22685]

Zeta, my suggestion of charisma based instead of the dex based skills are that people would only move sp into setting traps which does not really solve the whole problem of hiding being very over trumped by stamina and hp/strength builds being king. By putting 2 factors in charisma, it would make many people move away from pure strength builds, thus fixing 2 problems with 1 throw of a stone.

The proposal involves getting rid of stamina as a fort skill, so there won't be the double skill in strength to be balanced out by the double skill in charisma. The idea here is to NOT have an overpowered attribute, not to give one attribute two of the most important fort skills, one of which happens to be a duel skill as well.

 

[DeletedUser]

Why not totally simplify the formula then and just have:

Strength - HP
Mobility - Dodge
Dexterity -Aim
Charisma - Leadership

Why do we need to have such a complex formula when all we need to do is make dodge and aim more important and remove the extra skills? If they reduce the exponent back to 0.4 or even 0.3, it means that people must invest in aim, dodge and leadership in order to be able to hit or dodge.

If we wish to complicate the forumla with more skills, why not make it 2 from each attribute:

Strength - HP, stamina
Mobility - Dodge, hiding
Dexterity -Aim, shooting
Charisma - Leadership, tactics

This way, you must balance all areas in order to be effective. Stamina and hiding could have their exponent increased to 0.6 or 0.7 to encourage less skills being allocated there and the other exponents being reduced to 0.3 to encourage more skill points / attribute points to these other skills. This would reduce the Strength dominated build and mean that you need to have a balanced build and hp to do well.

S. why not do any of this... Oh, it's because the fort fighters don't want people who duel to be any good at both things... but at the end of the day, people who duel will not last long unless they hide at the back sniping as they simply do not have enough hp to last at the front or leadership to be able to move effectively.

 

[DeletedUser30224]

This way, you must balance all areas in order to be effective. Stamina and hiding could have their exponent increased to 0.6 or 0.7 to encourage less skills being allocated there and the other exponents being reduced to 0.3 to encourage more skill points / attribute points to these other skills. This would reduce the Strength dominated build and mean that you need to have a balanced build and hp to do well.

I really doubt your resolve If you increase Stamina even more, and decrease others except hiding to 0.3, who in their right mind would not want to be a pure Strength Tank?
I could argue the importance of Aiming and dodging, why these 2 skills wouldn't be increased if the aim is to lower HP ?

 

[DeletedUser]

what futu said: The idea here is to NOT have an overpowered attribute

thats the general idea indeed

i seen on w11 again yesterday attack 86 vs 84 our attack was in full 100% los from defence entire fight, we didn't even bothered to try and get los advantage, we had 5k more hp from start, yet the attack won.... just on colo the attack hugged the st in 10 rounds 15 online tanks los their hp, and some say the answer is skills, i got a very skilled build there, and i compared my stats on ST there to other tanks and saw that atleast 75% of them also already invested in hiding, yet we stand no chance holding a tower since we just can't dodge(30 dodges and i had 100 FF defence).

this new system simply overpowers the attack strength that is why we need the change, there a few other factors, as that the increase of skills really influences the old hitting and dodging formula in favour of the attack.

but i think changing the stamina skill will balance stuff out, and goals will be achieved like: better odds for attacks(like i said the higher # of FF attack and defence all get in fights due to higher importance skills also favours attackers already), less importance for hp, and more importance for hp

 

[DeletedUser]

I really doubt your resolve If you increase Stamina even more, and decrease others except hiding to 0.3, who in their right mind would not want to be a pure Strength Tank?
I could argue the importance of Aiming and dodging, why these 2 skills wouldn't be increased if the aim is to lower HP ?

If you increase the exponent, then you need to have less skills in stamina and hiding to make them effective. That way, players could afford not to put their AP into strength and move the AP elsewhere, thus reducing the HP at the same time.

I really think that stamina and hiding should either be removed totally, or change stamina to shooting which is very similar to Zeta's suggestion.

The other option is to change the formula so it isn't attack / defence and make it aim / dodge and redesign the formula so that aim and dodge are more significant. That way players would be inclined to create a split dex / mob build for fort fights and then they can choose to be one of many builds:

Sniper - more dex build - somewhat lower hp but high chance of hit / damage
Dodger - more mob build - somewhat lower hp but higher chance of dodge / resist
Balanced - fairly equal dodge / aim
HP - more str build and hp - less overall effectiveness.

This would then also allow the development of hard hitter and resistance builds with the new damage formulas, thus making many, many options for fort builds to mix things up a little and bring back more diversity to the game, whilst allowing many of the semi-fort fighters/ job / questers to participate with effective builds, thus getting quieter worlds to fill fights.

Tactics could then be brought in to give even more diversity and the only AP with only 1 skill would be strength to reduce the dependence on HP builds and tanks.

The problem at the moment is aim and dodge are almost worthless so nobody bothers to add any sp to them as they can still hit for 60 off the floor! Make aim and dodge way more important so players have to include them if they want to be able to hit a barn door or avoid being hit.

 

[DeletedUser22685]

Why do we need to have such a complex formula when all we need to do is make dodge and aim more important and remove the extra skills? If they reduce the exponent back to 0.4 or even 0.3, it means that people must invest in aim, dodge and leadership in order to be able to hit or dodge.

If you increase the exponent, then you need to have less skills in stamina and hiding to make them effective. That way, players could afford not to put their AP into strength and move the AP elsewhere, thus reducing the HP at the same time.

I'm sorry, but lowering the exponent is a complete backwards step and will return us to the very thing that caused all the complaints about the fort system in the first place. We saw in the past that a 0.4 exponent on all skills doesn't give enough of an advantage to those who place more SP into those skills over those who place none and rely on gear bonuses alone (tanks). After about 50 or so, the curve more or less flatlined meaning you could give yourself 150 SP in a fort skill and your chance to hit/dodge would be a couple of points higher than someone with 50. This meant that HP was the only skill really worth investing in other than leadership for move order. With a 0.3 exponent you decrease the effectiveness of skills even more and tanks will be able to not only place all their SP into health, but wear HP gear as well.

Having a higher exponent of 0.5 or 0.6 means that SP in a skill will be effective to a higher point. Sure, everyone's base chance to hit and dodge will increase, but people with higher skills will have theirs increased by more, thus widening the gap and giving them more potential for better performance.

The idea with the new formula is to allow those with the fort builds that were discarded as useful long ago to perform better than those with no fort skills, as they should. Not only will tanks with 0 SP in fort skills be decimated by low HP-high skill builds, thus becoming decidedly less useful, but they'll also hopefully grow tired of underperforming and respec away from health. In turn this lower overall HP will return some of the excitement, strategy and variation that has been missing from fort battles for a long time now.

Unfortunately, so far the change hasn't been quite as successful as we had hoped. Contrary to popular belief, I do not think this is because of stamina overpowering attackers. At least, not directly.

The problem arises from the fact that these same high stamina-low hiding tanks that are still dominating in attack are finding that they cannot compete with the other team's high stamina-low hiding tanks when they have to defend. Instead of respeccing some to hiding in order to be able to both attack and defend evenly, they saw that they were still able to dominate in attack with their stamina and therefore kept most, if not all, of their strength and HP, then blamed the formula for their struggling in defence.

It's quite simple:

 

[DeletedUser34862]

Props to Inno for making this change to the formula. It's awesome, love it, makes fort battles more interesting again. Damage build works just fine, and can be for anyone, not just duellers. Please don't give in to naysayers and revert back to the boring HP is king for everyone again. It will take some time for the benefits of reskilling to filter down. Defenders: up your hiding skills a bit, simple. Happy



What's in the clouds <withheld content> ?

 

[DeletedUser]

Or what about a VERY simple change? Just change the towers (in a bult up large for example) to 4x4 instead of 3x3?

Or add +1, for example, to tower defense values?

 

[DeletedUser]

Stamina & Hiding were always part of formula... but increase in exponential has created a dis-balance, I would suggest, if we can replace stamina with Reflex... wouldn't it be fairer ... many will be forced to re skill a bit to mobility .... going pure HP has to be at some cost.. in this new formula Stamina comes free with HP.. .. and in this world nothing is for free my friends

 

[rohith4444]

It's a NO from me
hmm instead of this stamina skill proposal ,why not put a proposal to change back to old ff formula
think like me Zeta :razz:

 

[DeletedUser34315]

It's a NO from me
hmm instead of this stamina skill proposal ,why not put a proposal to change back to old ff formula
think like me Zeta :razz:

So HP can rule even more than now? No thanks.

 

[DeletedUser]

A big NO from me. This forces the fort fighters to use the APs in mobility/dexterity mixed. Who is going to get advantage of this? This will weakening the tanks (with the new fort battle formula they got enough nerf, please do not make it worse) and this will make pure duellers with all attributes toward Dex. over powerful in the fort attacks. Assume that those also comes from dueller class.

 

[DeletedUser35352]

Well there are some relevant ideas about fixing the current formula in ffs but the debate as such is going in the wrong way.
IMO we all wanted to improve fort fights as they became dull, same situation repeating over and over again and ppl slowly loosing interest. And what we get? Devs simply playing (screewing) with formulas which were tested only a couple of days on beta where fort fights almost never fill and cant be relevant.
As speaking for myself - I wanted changes for ex. some random maps (to bring freshness in the maps which are same for 4 year), some new figthing skills (workers), etc.
Now we got a big debate how to adjust skills to new (well not new but bit altered) formula, after 2-3 months most of figthers will be properly reskilled and we end up with same problem - dull fights on same maps and when full hard to win in rounds given.

 

[DeletedUser30224]

The custom maps for forts are planned in the roadmap 2013:

Fort battle improvements and multiplayer instances
"Catch cows" or "Bear hunt" will be a similar to fort battle multiplayer instances that allows you to play against NPCs on a special map with a few other people.
Different maps for different forts.
Better fort battle balancing.

 

[DeletedUser]

Sure, you'll have trouble defending against an army of HP tanks if they keep their HP and their stamina, but that also means they'll suck at defending. No alliance wants to win all their attacks if they're guaranteed to lose their fort the very next time it's attacked. The alliance whose members spec away some of their strength and HP and invest into some hiding will be the alliance who dominates in both attacks and defences. If every fort fighter does this, we'll have balanced attacks and defences again, with less HP (and therefore less boring stalemates) and builds that actually determine how well you perform in battles.

This is ultimately the answer.

The only other solution I could come up with (other than an exponent based HP formula) would be to just even out all of the variables.

Skill^0.5 all the way around. Stamina counts for your to hit chance on attack OR defense, Hiding counts for your to dodge chance on either also. The resistance calculation should remain the same. Same for the damage calculation.

Attackers will have to use LOS advantage and sector aiming and all of the fun tactics, defenders will rely on their tower bonuses and swapping, HP (while still important) becomes less of a primary focus because a well built (and well equipped) player will be more effective in every situation.

Just my thoughts. I had reskilled most of my fighters away from HP hoping that the new calculation would prove itself out, but in the end most of my fighters have been putting points right back into HP...

 

[DeletedUser]

If you increase the exponent, then you need to have less skills in stamina and hiding to make them effective. That way, players could afford not to put their AP into strength and move the AP elsewhere, thus reducing the HP at the same time.

I really think that stamina and hiding should either be removed totally, or change stamina to shooting which is very similar to Zeta's suggestion.

The other option is to change the formula so it isn't attack / defence and make it aim / dodge and redesign the formula so that aim and dodge are more significant. That way players would be inclined to create a split dex / mob build for fort fights and then they can choose to be one of many builds:

Sniper - more dex build - somewhat lower hp but high chance of hit / damage
Dodger - more mob build - somewhat lower hp but higher chance of dodge / resist
Balanced - fairly equal dodge / aim
HP - more str build and hp - less overall effectiveness.

This would then also allow the development of hard hitter and resistance builds with the new damage formulas, thus making many, many options for fort builds to mix things up a little and bring back more diversity to the game, whilst allowing many of the semi-fort fighters/ job / questers to participate with effective builds, thus getting quieter worlds to fill fights.

Tactics could then be brought in to give even more diversity and the only AP with only 1 skill would be strength to reduce the dependence on HP builds and tanks.

The problem at the moment is aim and dodge are almost worthless so nobody bothers to add any sp to them as they can still hit for 60 off the floor! Make aim and dodge way more important so players have to include them if they want to be able to hit a barn door or avoid being hit.

futu the problem is very easy, i did an example on colo were 15 10k+ tanks on ST were down in about 10-12 rounds, unlike popular thought the majority off folks already did reskills and most of those tanks already had 92-148 hiding (+10-15 FF attack and defence) yet they dodged most of em like balls, they can ofcourse invest another 100 sp into hiding and lose another 2k hp, they might dodge slightly better, but then the decrease in hp still makes them unable to keep point. there been many fights now on many worlds, and where in the past even with 5-6 offliners you could flawlessly defend a small fight vs an attack with maybe 40-50k hp advantage(means equal or even lower hp per attacker) these days you have more chance of flawlessly losing them then actually manage to defend em.

i know i might be whiney and such, but i totally agree with the devs a change had to come(where are those new fortmaps!!!) but in my and many that i spoke to opinions they overrushed this change without any proper testing(beta 3 vs 3 fights ain't really a good testcase). i understand they had a 4 july deadline, but this new system is simply disbalanced and in the end it will only turn people away from fortfighting and i truly hope the devs come with a smart fix, since the change stamina change i proposed might not be perfect, and maybe not solve all problems but it should improve the system and get closer to the goal inno had in mind

 

[DeletedUser22493]

Where are we with this? Want some more time to discuss?