DeletedUser
"Attack Value" is in fact Aiming and not damage although how much more Aiming is debatable...
Try 5 red circle attacks and you'll see for certain that you will not do more damage.
"Attack Value" is in fact Aiming and not damage although how much more Aiming is debatable...
Try 5 red circle attacks and you'll see for certain that you will not do more damage.
DeletedUser
I wouldn't say appearance and tactics are of much use. I can do plenty of jobs without putting points in either for my soldier.
DeletedUser
True but there are 20 jobs that contain appearance, 5 of which are 2x appearance. There are 23 jobs that contain tactics, 2 of which are 2x tactics. That's quite a few jobs that you could do - or do better - if you put points into those skills instead of aim or dodge which help no jobs at all.
DeletedUser
I must be slow this morning, but what do you mean?
DeletedUser
On your duel stance - normally you have 2 red circles and 3 green circles.
The green circles double your Dodge value IF the other guy aims at them.
If you go 5 red circles you remove all your Dodging in favor of more "Attack Value" which is Aiming and not damage as many people think.
Take some time and read through the help area on dueling - some good stuff in there.
http://en1.the-west.net/help.php?article=duell_procedure
The green circles double your Dodge value IF the other guy aims at them.
If you go 5 red circles you remove all your Dodging in favor of more "Attack Value" which is Aiming and not damage as many people think.
Take some time and read through the help area on dueling - some good stuff in there.
http://en1.the-west.net/help.php?article=duell_procedure
DeletedUser
The topic seems to have been stretched quite a lot from what's more useful for a dueler A/T or Dodging?.
This is just an opinion and I'm not a pro or anything specially with dueling but the way I see it from the help sector it seems APPEARANCE and TACTIC is much more useful if you put large numbers on them since it lowers the enemy's AIM while dodging increases your evasion rate. So what I'm trying to say is that no matter how high your DODGING skill is as long as your enemy has an equally high AIM then you'll still get hit whilst if you have high A/T skills then you'll lower their AIM but since how it's calculated is a mystery you'll never really know hell maybe if you have enough maybe you can lower it to 0.
So all in all the question on having a pure dueler is only on having a pure dueler on what level and how much money do you have. So my Advice forget dodging if you have 100k+ money then reset it and put 200 AIM and 200 VIGOR/SHOOTING and you'll kill them in 2-3 shots
This is just an opinion and I'm not a pro or anything specially with dueling but the way I see it from the help sector it seems APPEARANCE and TACTIC is much more useful if you put large numbers on them since it lowers the enemy's AIM while dodging increases your evasion rate. So what I'm trying to say is that no matter how high your DODGING skill is as long as your enemy has an equally high AIM then you'll still get hit whilst if you have high A/T skills then you'll lower their AIM but since how it's calculated is a mystery you'll never really know hell maybe if you have enough maybe you can lower it to 0.
So all in all the question on having a pure dueler is only on having a pure dueler on what level and how much money do you have. So my Advice forget dodging if you have 100k+ money then reset it and put 200 AIM and 200 VIGOR/SHOOTING and you'll kill them in 2-3 shots
DeletedUser
Ah yes, it was just the way you described it that made no sense to me. If you had said stand still without dodging I'd have known what you meant
DeletedUser
The topic seems to have been stretched quite a lot from what's more useful for a dueler A/T or Dodging?.
This is just an opinion and I'm not a pro or anything specially with dueling but the way I see it from the help sector it seems APPEARANCE and TACTIC is much more useful if you put large numbers on them since it lowers the enemy's AIM while dodging increases your evasion rate. So what I'm trying to say is that no matter how high your DODGING skill is as long as your enemy has an equally high AIM then you'll still get hit whilst if you have high A/T skills then you'll lower their AIM but since how it's calculated is a mystery you'll never really know hell maybe if you have enough maybe you can lower it to 0.
So all in all the question on having a pure dueler is only on having a pure dueler on what level and how much money do you have. So my Advice forget dodging if you have 100k+ money then reset it and put 200 AIM and 200 VIGOR/SHOOTING and you'll kill them in 2-3 shots
I've been wondering how Appearance vs Tactics are calculated myself as I've lost some duels that are a complete mystery to me. Even after consulting with the opponents, it just made no sense... Yes we all know there'a a slight luck factor involved, but hell, could someone be THAT lucky. It has left us scratching our heads. As I am a pure dueler I'm still searching for the right answers here.
I've had a look at some players (soldiers) ranked top with tactics. People who only seem to put the mayority of skill points in tactics and by the looks of things they don't win many duels. Judging by this I'd say it doesn't lower your opponents aim all that much.
The only conclusion that I could come to is if you're going to play the A/T game, you want to avoid getting hit and therefore you should go with dodge. If you want go all out damage, forget the A/T game and go shooting/vigor and aim.
DeletedUser
My opinion as i understand mechanic explanation from help section:
high tactics is pretty much useless for dueling if you have low dodge!
With high tactics you reduce opponents aim (attack value).
But then, random numbers are used to determine if hit is made.
example:
- attacker has 80 aiming and 0 appearance
- defender has 40 tactics and 0 dodging
1. attackers attack value is lowered by 40
2. attacker gets +5 attack value, defender gets +5 defense value (by default in all duels)
3. random number is used: from 0 to attack value of attacker (0 - 45)
and
from 0 and defense value of defender (0 - 5)
4. if attacker aims at defenders dodged side (green circle), defense value is doubled
so, in this case you could face 0-45 vs. 0-10 and then random number is chosen.
everything is about luck, but attacker has better chance.
whichever random number is greater, it determines if it is hit or miss.
calculating damage is completely different matter and has nothing to do with aim, dodge, tactics or appearance skills.
well, that's how i understand it. :laugh:
high tactics is pretty much useless for dueling if you have low dodge!
With high tactics you reduce opponents aim (attack value).
But then, random numbers are used to determine if hit is made.
example:
- attacker has 80 aiming and 0 appearance
- defender has 40 tactics and 0 dodging
1. attackers attack value is lowered by 40
2. attacker gets +5 attack value, defender gets +5 defense value (by default in all duels)
3. random number is used: from 0 to attack value of attacker (0 - 45)
and
from 0 and defense value of defender (0 - 5)
4. if attacker aims at defenders dodged side (green circle), defense value is doubled
so, in this case you could face 0-45 vs. 0-10 and then random number is chosen.
everything is about luck, but attacker has better chance.
whichever random number is greater, it determines if it is hit or miss.
calculating damage is completely different matter and has nothing to do with aim, dodge, tactics or appearance skills.
well, that's how i understand it. :laugh:
DeletedUser
Well laid out. That's exactly how I understood it, exept for the part where you said that the attackers value IS lowered by 40. That's an asumption. They don't tell us how that's calculated. It my only be 25% of the difference.
ex.
Attacker has 90 Aim and 10 Appearance.
Defender has 50 Tatcics and 10 Dodging
25 % of the difference is 10
Attackers Aim is thus lowered by 10 and now is 80 vs 10 Dodging.
Those 50 Tactic points would have been better spent if they all went to dodging...
The Defender would've had 60 Dodging....
ex.
Attacker has 90 Aim and 10 Appearance.
Defender has 50 Tatcics and 10 Dodging
25 % of the difference is 10
Attackers Aim is thus lowered by 10 and now is 80 vs 10 Dodging.
Those 50 Tactic points would have been better spent if they all went to dodging...
The Defender would've had 60 Dodging....
DeletedUser
Yes, nowhere is stated if tactics/appearance influence on attack value by percentage or by real number difference.
However, i doubt they would even more handicap significance of tactics/appearance in duels.
If it were only 25% influence (as in your example), then those two skills would be even more useless in duels.
But, as you said that is only an assumption.
However, i doubt they would even more handicap significance of tactics/appearance in duels.
If it were only 25% influence (as in your example), then those two skills would be even more useless in duels.
But, as you said that is only an assumption.
DeletedUser
Nice fafer probably the least convoluted explanation of how it works and I think it's pretty much correct. Although the key to actually know the full formula of course is knowing how the tactics/appearance differential effects your aim. It's hard to tell this without studying individual duels.
DeletedUser
Duel Statistics
Attacker Aiming 50 vs Defender Dodging 50(if attacker random between 1-50 30 and defender random 1-50 20=hit lands) Attacker has 50 appearance vs opponent 30 tactics(they will not random but 50-30 attacker + 20 dmg defender -20 dmg defender)Attacker 50 vigor and defender 50 toughness(will not random but 50-50= dmg +0 dmg -0) Dmg done by attacker is lowered down up to 0 because of tactics and toughness of defender but in duel dmg +5 in attacker and defender so dmg will be 1-5 dmg if hits)
Attacker Aiming 50 vs Defender Dodging 50(if attacker random between 1-50 30 and defender random 1-50 20=hit lands) Attacker has 50 appearance vs opponent 30 tactics(they will not random but 50-30 attacker + 20 dmg defender -20 dmg defender)Attacker 50 vigor and defender 50 toughness(will not random but 50-50= dmg +0 dmg -0) Dmg done by attacker is lowered down up to 0 because of tactics and toughness of defender but in duel dmg +5 in attacker and defender so dmg will be 1-5 dmg if hits)
DeletedUser
ok so if you have 150 points and want to make a good dueler where would u put them and how much at each
DeletedUser
Attacker Aiming 50 vs Defender Dodging 50(if attacker random between 1-50 30 and defender random 1-50 20=hit lands) Attacker has 50 appearance vs opponent 30 tactics(they will not random but 50-30 attacker + 20 dmg defender -20 dmg defender)Attacker 50 vigor and defender 50 toughness(will not random but 50-50= dmg +0 dmg -0) Dmg done by attacker is lowered down up to 0 because of tactics and toughness of defender but in duel dmg +5 in attacker and defender so dmg will be 1-5 dmg if hits)
No disrespect, but that's just wrong on so many levels... Tactics/Appearance do not affect damage, only the to hit chance (they effectively lower one player's Aim). An equal amount of Vigor and Toughness will definitely not lower the damage done to zero! If anything, if Vigor = Toughness the damage will be that of the weapon, unmodified. And lastly, the +5 you're talking about is added to both players Attack Value and Defense Value - that is their Aim and Dodge - and has nothing to do with damage either...
DeletedUser
That really depends on what you want... For a level 50 with 150 SP and 50 AP you could:
A) Take 50 Strength, 50 Toughness (for a total of 100) and 100 Reflex. This should severely lower the damage you take from any opponent, but you'll be hit every round and you'll need to rely on getting Aim from Equipment. Take a melee weapon (you have Vigor), of course.
B) Take 50 Dexterity, 100 Shooting (for a total of 150) and 50 Dodge. This would basically be a glass canon - high damage but if you get hit you go down.
C) Take 50 Charisma, and put the skills in Tactics, Dodge and Appearance to hope for a build where you practically never get hit (how effective this would be depends entirely on how effective Appearance/Tactics are to lower your opponents aim).
I'm not saying any of these build are 'the best' (or even good
), you should take jobs available into consideration as well. But most duelling skills work on the principle of diminishing returns, that is if your skill is already 'high enough' getting it higher won't benefit you much. This is especially true of the last two builds above (the first build will need all the resistances it can get).DeletedUser
50 Dodge is not that helpful vs any dex based dueler.