9/11-was the U.S goverment involved?

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DeletedUser

Thats crapola was a good intro for the rest of your post.

Rumsfeld was the one with the hardon for Iraq-his differences between him and Colin-and Bush siding with Rumsfeld, is why Colin stepped down.

Iraq was wrong in more ways than right-but it's reasons were far from Gulf War I, and more post Gulf War I.

The search for weapons of mass destruction was only a front
If only it were that simple. But I guess if we are capable of corrupting multiple agencies within our own and other countries to orchestrate 9/11, I guess we are capable at corrupting world wide opinion of WMD. Also-the important note of not finding WMDs is not proof that Saddam/Iraq didn't have any. It is what it is-but there's no way to be definitive about a false positive.

Iraq situation was more about a failure of the UN to serve its purpose. Just like it continues with N Korea, Iran etc etc.
 
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DeletedUser

Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz are also throwbacks to Gulf war, yes they were the think tank behind the whole thing, so in essence that only further proves my point. The whole War strategy was preplanned for a long time it didn't just suddenly happen with 9/11, that was just a catalyst to set the wheels in motion that's why there's a lot of cynicism about the atrocity. Not because of the shrouded happenings of the event itself but the way it allowed a warmongering President free reign over policy without consequence.

America didn't corrupt World Wide opinion of WMD, though they did try, most of the educated world was laughing at the gullibility of the American people to bite and swallow whatever is presented to them in the media.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

Read the bit about another Pearl Harbour they were either waiting for an event like 9/11 to happen or you could try and imagine they might have played some part in it. It wouldn't be the worst thing the American government has ever done, look how they treated their own citizens in New Orleans post hurricane Katrina for a start. We aren't talking about humanitarians here.
 
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DeletedUser544

Quantrillo is correct about Rumsfield and Wolfowitz
both have long and "interesting" careers in the white house; go read about them some time. Cheney as well. but that is a different issue and involves the "good ol boys club" amongst politicians in America.

look I'm the last person to jump on every conspiracy theory. but the 9/11 tragedy screams it from several fronts.

regarding the "jet turbine" argument presented earlier, everybody knows that the model of aircraft flying did not have jet turbines on the bottom of their airframe. many people argue, upon analysis of the footage, whether its even a commercial airliner that hits the building.

then there is the building that just fell (as someone mentioned earlier). nobody has ever explained that adquately. supposedly it was a planned demolition. but there were no permits for it, no record of any plan. and these things take months of planning. furthermore, they would have CALLED IT OFF in light of the emergency that existed downtown in that area due to the planes hitting...

the arguments about the jet fuel being hot enough to melt the support of the towers has been debunked. aircraft don't always 'explode' when they crash; in fact, explosions occur a low percentage of the time...

the pentagon, and its 3 measly frames of video, and the complete lack of any aircraft debris... as well as the fact that an aircraft hitting the pentagon wouldn't damage it the way it was damage; the pentagon has multiple walls of 10ft thick reinforced concrete. it was spec'ed to be able to withstand a collision from an aircraft. and the crate in the pentagon could not have been created by an aircraft; you would need a high explosive armor piercing vehicle, like a bunker buster bomb.

I think one of the most telling flaws in the 9/11 story we were presented with is the fact that we are expected to believe that 10-20 muslim extremists armed with BOX CUTTERS were able to subdue an entire plane full of passengers. say their are 250 people on a flight. if just 20% of them fought back, they would outnumber the terrorists more then 2 to 1. that neutralizes any possible effect a box cutter could have in a close quarters battle.
 

DeletedUser

Quantrillo is correct about Rumsfield and Wolfowitz
both have long and "interesting" careers in the white house; go read about them some time. Cheney as well. but that is a different issue and involves the "good ol boys club" amongst politicians in America.

Thats actually not a debate.

look I'm the last person to jump on every conspiracy theory. but the 9/11 tragedy screams it from several fronts.

regarding the "jet turbine" argument presented earlier, everybody knows that the model of aircraft flying did not have jet turbines on the bottom of their airframe. many people argue, upon analysis of the footage, whether its even a commercial airliner that hits the building.

....
the pentagon, and its 3 measly frames of video, and the complete lack of any aircraft debris... as well as the fact that an aircraft hitting the pentagon wouldn't damage it the way it was damage; the pentagon has multiple walls of 10ft thick reinforced concrete. it was spec'ed to be able to withstand a collision from an aircraft. and the crate in the pentagon could not have been created by an aircraft; you would need a high explosive armor piercing vehicle, like a bunker buster bomb.

I have a friend in the FBI, retired Marine Aviator who was part of the ERT team investigating the Pentagon crash site. He laughs at the "Cruise Missile" theorists and those that claim it wasn't a crash. But who knows, I suppose they got to him as well.

then there is the building that just fell (as someone mentioned earlier). nobody has ever explained that adquately. supposedly it was a planned demolition. but there were no permits for it, no record of any plan. and these things take months of planning. furthermore, they would have CALLED IT OFF in light of the emergency that existed downtown in that area due to the planes hitting...

This is extremely debatable within the scope of a conspiracy. 1, you have the 2 main towers imploded. If your goal is the intended effect of a terroristic threat, most people probably don't remember WTC7 collapsing. There's just no benefit.

Now, on the other hand, in terms of the situation buildings carry catastrophe/terrorism coverage to insure the buildings. In the situation-WTC7 may have been worth more down than up. So the government is not necessarily the only one at stake in that situation.

3rd is its not beyond the terrorists to have people on the ground with explosives that once the chaos started, security broke down they entered and had the explosives planted. The few "incriminating videos" have comments that can easily be skewed out of context to one side or the other.

the arguments about the jet fuel being hot enough to melt the support of the towers has been debunked. aircraft don't always 'explode' when they crash; in fact, explosions occur a low percentage of the time...

Fill a commercial air liner up with fuel and proceed in excess of 250 MPH into a hard impact into a steel building loaded with electronics and you will get an explosion everytime.

Statistically, no one can say what the effects of a commercial liner are on hitting a building.



I think one of the most telling flaws in the 9/11 story we were presented with is the fact that we are expected to believe that 10-20 muslim extremists armed with BOX CUTTERS were able to subdue an entire plane full of passengers. say their are 250 people on a flight. if just 20% of them fought back, they would outnumber the terrorists more then 2 to 1. that neutralizes any possible effect a box cutter could have in a close quarters battle.

People on board had no idea to expect their fate would be flying into a building. After all, the mainstream idea of hijackings prior 9/11 was take command of a plane, and work for negotiations of a demand.

Another thing is it wasn't the threat of box cutters keeping passengers at bay, but bombs, be it fake or real.

As far as 250 passengers overwhelming them, apparently you aren't well-traveled on commercial airliners.

Planes offer the best environment for a hostage situation. In aisleways-2 people can barely go by one another. Now-give 1 person a weapon, deny the passengers the ability to communicate, and a threat of a bomb that kills them all if they do fight back-you don't see why its plausible the passengers did nothing?

Look at most kidnappings. A majority of victims end up killed from kidnappings, and with this knowledge, most victims fail to fight back due to shock. This is in spite of all the statistics that say victims of a kidnapping have a much higher rate of survival IF they fight back.

Terrorist hijackings-people had no reason to think there would not be a negotiation, and their actions would only potentially kill them all.
 

DeletedUser

The initial reports said it was the explosion of kerosene that weakened the structure this was bull, kerosene burns at peak temperature somewhere around 800 degrees F but you need about 2500 degrees to melt fabricated steel. This sort of heat can only really be produced by Thermite which is one of the substances used in controlled demolition.
 

DeletedUser

Since I am not a mineralogist or an engineer-you can read why you aren't quite accurate Quan...

The fire is the most misunderstood part of the WTC collapse. Even today, the media report (and many scientists believe) that the steel melted. It is argued that the jet fuel burns very hot, especially with so much fuel present. This is not true.​

Part of the problem is that people (including engineers) often confuse temperature and heat. While they are related, they are not the same. Thermodynamically, the heat contained in a material is related to the temperature through the heat capacity and the density (or mass). Temperature is defined as an intensive property, meaning that it does not vary with the quantity of material, while the heat is an extensive property, which does vary with the amount of material. One way to distinguish the two is to note that if a second log is added to the fireplace, the temperature does not double; it stays roughly the same, but the size of the fire or the length of time the fire burns, or a combination of the two, doubles. Thus, the fact that there were 90,000 L of jet fuel on a few floors of the WTC does not mean that this was an unusually hot fire. The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel.​

In combustion science, there are three basic types of flames, namely, a jet burner, a pre-mixed flame, and a diffuse flame. A jet burner generally involves mixing the fuel and the oxidant in nearly stoichiometric proportions and igniting the mixture in a constant-volume chamber. Since the combustion products cannot expand in the constant-volume chamber, they exit the chamber as a very high velocity, fully combusted, jet. This is what occurs in a jet engine, and this is the flame type that generates the most intense heat.​

In a pre-mixed flame, the same nearly stoichiometric mixture is ignited as it exits a nozzle, under constant pressure conditions. It does not attain the flame velocities of a jet burner. An oxyacetylene torch or a Bunsen burner is a pre-mixed flame.​

In a diffuse flame, the fuel and the oxidant are not mixed before ignition, but flow together in an uncontrolled manner and combust when the fuel/oxidant ratios reach values within the flammable range. A fireplace flame is a diffuse flame burning in air, as was the WTC fire.​

Diffuse flames generate the lowest heat intensities of the three flame types.​

If the fuel and the oxidant start at ambient temperature, a maximum flame temperature can be defined. For carbon burning in pure oxygen, the maximum is 3,200°C; for hydrogen it is 2,750°C. Thus, for virtually any hydrocarbons, the maximum flame temperature, starting at ambient temperature and using pure oxygen, is approximately 3,000°C.​

This maximum flame temperature is reduced by two-thirds if air is used rather than pure oxygen. The reason is that every molecule of oxygen releases the heat of formation of a molecule of carbon monoxide and a molecule of water. If pure oxygen is used, this heat only needs to heat two molecules (carbon monoxide and water), while with air, these two molecules must be heated plus four molecules of nitrogen. Thus, burning hydrocarbons in air produces only one-third the temperature increase as burning in pure oxygen because three times as many molecules must be heated when air is used. The maximum flame temperature increase for burning hydrocarbons (jet fuel) in air is, thus, about 1,000°C—hardly sufficient to melt steel at 1,500°C.​



But it is very difficult to reach this maximum temperature with a diffuse flame. There is nothing to ensure that the fuel and air in a diffuse flame are mixed in the best ratio. Typically, diffuse flames are fuel rich, meaning that the excess fuel molecules, which are unburned, must also be heated. It is known that most diffuse fires are fuel rich because blowing on a campfire or using a blacksmith’s bellows increases the rate of combustion by adding more oxygen. This fuel-rich diffuse flame can drop the temperature by up to a factor of two again. This is why the temperatures in a residential fire are usually in the 500°C to 650°C range.[SIZE=-1]2,3[/SIZE] It is known that the WTC fire was a fuel-rich, diffuse flame as evidenced by the copious black smoke. Soot is generated by incompletely burned fuel; hence, the WTC fire was fuel rich—hardly surprising with 90,000 L of jet fuel available. Factors such as flame volume and quantity of soot decrease the radiative heat loss in the fire, moving the temperature closer to the maximum of 1,000°C. However, it is highly unlikely that the steel at the WTC experienced temperatures above the 750–800°C range. All reports that the steel melted at 1,500°C are using imprecise terminology at best.​

Some reports suggest that the aluminum from the aircraft ignited, creating very high temperatures. While it is possible to ignite aluminum under special conditions, such conditions are not commonly attained in a hydrocarbon-based diffuse flame. In addition, the flame would be white hot, like a giant sparkler. There was no evidence of such aluminum ignition, which would have been visible even through the dense soot.​

It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.[SIZE=-1]4[/SIZE] This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650°C fire.​

The additional problem was distortion of the steel in the fire. The temperature of the fire was not uniform everywhere, and the temperature on the outside of the box columns was clearly lower than on the side facing the fire. The temperature along the 18 m long joists was certainly not uniform. Given the thermal expansion of steel, a 150°C temperature difference from one location to another will produce yield-level residual stresses. This produced distortions in the slender structural steel, which resulted in buckling failures. Thus, the failure of the steel was due to two factors: loss of strength due to the temperature of the fire, and loss of structural integrity due to distortion of the steel from the non-uniform temperatures in the fire.​


 

DeletedUser

The initial reports said it was the explosion of kerosene that weakened the structure this was bull, kerosene burns at peak temperature somewhere around 800 degrees F but you need about 2500 degrees to melt fabricated steel. This sort of heat can only really be produced by Thermite which is one of the substances used in controlled demolition.

Err, while what you said is technically correct, you are ignoring many other factors.

1. Things don't need to melt to produce catastrophic result. Concrete may start to spall around 800 degrees.

2. Concrete is made up of cement + other material. Each have different melting point. Depending on concrete mixture and what's been put into the concrete structure (steel, fiber, etc.), technically, a building made up of concrete may crumble like a house of cards when temperature reaches about 1000 degrees. Steel and sand melts about 2500-2700 range, approximately, I remember steel can have varied melting point, depending on what kind of steel is, because steel is simply an alloy of iron + various compounds (carbon, nickle, etc. etc.) When a building's burning temperature reaches about 1000 degrees, you risk the building concrete lose its cohesion and the weight of the building can very well crumble its own concrete support. I need to ask my civil engineer friends since we talked about this after 911 but it's been many years since that discussion. They graduated from MIT, Stanford, etc. so I assume they know what they're talking about.

3. You don't need thermite to reach very high temperature. Aluminum and steel mills use high voltage to "melt" the ore or scrap metal to produce new aluminum and steel.

4. If you watch myth buster, you should know kerosine and gasoliine make wonderful explosions. C4, and other explosives may not make as spectacular explosion with a ball of fire as kerosine & gasoline but they are more destructive (C4, dynamite, etc. combust rapidly and rapidly expands air to create destruction but doesn't burn as fiercely by itself as gasoline and kerosine for special effects)

I love mythbusters. I wish they can do this WTC experiment but it will be difficult to replicate, I suppose they can build scale model if they can get identical material as WTC and build a smaller scale but it'll be interesting to see how they can build mini tiny steel beam, with the same tensil strength, melting point, not to mention gravel & sand & cement in small enough scale but enough to simulate 911 to put a lot of these theories to rest.
 

DeletedUser

The towers support was made of fabricated steel afaik and though it was lightweight the trusses were designed to take an impact of jet plane albeit a slightly smaller one than the 767. The explosion and the ensuing heat would not have weakened the frame, similar buildings have burnt for two weeks and they never dropped the steel frame remained. It's tough work taking a building of this caliber down ask any demolition expert that, for both buildings collapse straight down without toppling over would be a million to one shot. Falling concrete would not weaken the foundation as I said they were designed to survive a high velocity impact from a plane falling concrete would not be any more powerful than this.
 
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DeletedUser

I think the government was trying to cover up the extent that our security was breached to prevent country wide panic. If there was indeed more to the buildings falling than just the plane crash. Like explosives throughout the building, then isn't it also possible that the terrorists put them there. They are well organized, well funded, and had more than enough time to plan something of that scale.
 

DeletedUser

I love mythbusters. I wish they can do this WTC experiment but it will be difficult to replicate, I suppose they can build scale model if they can get identical material as WTC and build a smaller scale but it'll be interesting to see how they can build mini tiny steel beam, with the same tensil strength, melting point, not to mention gravel & sand & cement in small enough scale but enough to simulate 911 to put a lot of these theories to rest.


Funny you should mention, but around 2003 there was a post on the Mythbusters forum stating that they WOULD NOT touch anything 9/11 related. However, after millions of requests they finally had a press conference stating they WOULD in fact do a 2-hour special on 9/11. They even posted a teaser onto you tube. This was about 6-7 months ago.

However, the youtube video has been pulled and there is no new information if/when the 2-hour special will air. I hope it still will. I love that show!

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081206042759AAwqJ0Q

That one link I found about it in a quick search. There are a few others that state basically the same thing. However, I can't find the actual release they gave. :bandit:
 

DeletedUser

What if they find the so called conspiracies aren't actually a myth it would be quite difficult for a mainstream TV show to produce damning evidence that could open legal proceedings against the Bush administration.
 

DeletedUser

What if they find the so called conspiracies aren't actually a myth it would be quite difficult for a mainstream TV show to produce damning evidence that could open legal proceedings against the Bush administration.

Let's build a new tomorrow on 'what ifs"....
 

DeletedUser

it would be quite difficult for a mainstream TV show to produce damning evidence that could open legal proceedings against the Bush administration.
Are you kidding? Any show, producer etc would drool over that sort of opportunity. If that were the case, Watergate would have never happened. Newspapers were eager to report on that story-the difficulty was finding the willing sources to divulge incriminating evidence.
 

DeletedUser

What? Everyone knows the only reason Watergate was blown up was because Forrest Gump caught them.
 

DeletedUser

You're mistaking the kind of show Mythbusters truly is, it's not sixty minutes. That sort of discovery would be too hot for these guys to handle plus they come across as patriotic bungleheads who would have zero political ambitions. Just sayin the problem is not many shows would be willing to put their ass on the line to try and look at the situation seriously from an abject point of view and really get to the core of what might have happened. The backlash would be enormous if they started saying something is awry, probably wouldn't get aired.
 
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DeletedUser

Ass on the line with who exactly Quantrillo? There are no black helicopters, and these sort of shows would kill anything that would jump their ratings.

They'd cash in on commercials like it was the super bowl.

People have claimed the conspiracy theories on TV-and no one unleashed the dogs on them. TV is purely motivated by $$$-and they fear the FCC more than they fear a whitehouse-and besides-with a completely democratic legislative/executive branch-where exactly would the trouble come from if they exposed the potential for a conspiracy under the opposing parties former president?

Comeon now.
 

DeletedUser

You're missing the point marcothy. He's saying that everyone would eventually label those people as crazy and never take them seriously again (rightfully so), not that the white house is going to 'unleash the dogs' or whatever.
 

DeletedUser

Aye I'm saying their name would be dragged through the mud for being unpatriotic and yes they would be labeled loonies by the less openminded. Regardless of who's right there was so many oddities about the event it really raises a mountain of questions.
 

DeletedUser

I think you've had most of your questions answered in terms of how a building can collapse. As far as calling them crazy for it-thats crap.

There have been actual political figures who have stated their beliefs about the conspiracies, countless blogs, even specials on Investigative Discovery.

The trouble is-as most points in here that lean toward the conspiracy, is it all can be explained within reason-such as your point about needing to have the steel melt, requiring thermite etc.

When you look at 15 or so circumstantial AND independent factors, its much much harder to make a conspiracy work. Common reason and logic would heavily lean towards a coordinated and planned attack accounting for anything that seemed out of place over the points of a massive conspiracy involving multitudes of agencies and 2 federal governments.

If Mythbusters could reveal that it was physically impossible-they would. They are science based people, and threats of being unpatriotic (coming from whom btw?) wouldn't deter them.

But hey-lets just ignore all the reasonible engineers who have looked at the details, building plans and stated its very possible for the towers to collapse. I mean, they're just engineers...:huh:
 
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