Daily Gospel

Status
Not open for further replies.

DeletedUser

There is more design in the human body than the most intricate, complex man-made computer enhanced machinery in existence.[...]So, as a matter of logic, it is highly unreasonable and illogical to believe that although such design exists in our universe, there is no designer behind it.

I'm fairly certain I was "created" by my parents and not by a designer. I'm the result of two combined genomes with some alterations that didn't exist in any of the two parental genomes.
This applies to all living beings (except that there's only one parental genome with asexual replication)
However none of this applies to the Empire State building or any architecture in first place. The Empire State building doesn't reproduce, nor did it have parents. That's the reason, why it must have been designed.
It is unreasonable and illogical for me to assume the existence of another designer for myself, since I definitely have parents.
 

DeletedUser

Thank you for contributing your thoughts, brother Seamus, and brother Jack..


*******


30TH OF MARCH, 2010

Gospel for today:
John 13:21-33, 36-38 Judas’ Betrayal Announced and Peter’s Denial Predicted

Food for thought:
Jesus specializes in restoration.
.:indian:
 

DeletedUser

I'm fairly certain I was "created" by my parents and not by a designer. I'm the result of two combined genomes with some alterations that didn't exist in any of the two parental genomes.
This applies to all living beings (except that there's only one parental genome with asexual replication)
However none of this applies to the Empire State building or any architecture in first place. The Empire State building doesn't reproduce, nor did it have parents. That's the reason, why it must have been designed.
It is unreasonable and illogical for me to assume the existence of another designer for myself, since I definitely have parents.

You picked his statement apart way too much, bro.

he meant the human species in general, not you personally. Yes you are the combination of your parents genes, not of a certain person God wanted you to be and made you tha way in your mother's womb.

But a first human pair had to be created for the rest to take place.
 

DeletedUser

But a first human pair had to be created for the rest to take place.

If I sum up all the alterations, that are different between me and my parents and between them and their parents, etc. I will eventually end up with something that is nothing like me/a modern human, while that being still is remarkably similar to their respective parents or offspring.
Certain castles in medieval times were quite impressive, pompous buildings. Today they are nothing but ruins. If I had taken a picture every day and compare them in order, it wouldn't matter much if a stone was missing here or there or if there's some moss starting to grow. However if I compare the first and the last picture, I will notice a significant difference.
 

DeletedUser

of course there is a difference, the first human pair were perfect, without sin, we are now as far from perfection as currently possible.
 

DeletedUser

There were no first humans for the same reason there was no first day the castle stopped being a castle and began to be a ruin. It's a gradual process. Our terms for changing things only refer to a certain point in time, but can't be applied to the very same thing at different points in time.
For example you could call a human being: baby, child, teen, adolescent, adult, doter and they all apply to the very same thing, yet only one term of them is appropiate at a certain point in time. And there is no sudden switch from one to another, because it's a gradual process.
 

DeletedUser

Jack, thanks for the response to my thought and I'm glad for the intelligent discussion. What you appear to be saying is that you are simply the result of a long string of processes, which I suppose go all the way back to a puddle of goo somewhere that was struck by lightning perhaps. You are the result of the pro-creation of your parents, who in turn were the same, back back back until you get to the puddle, or bang, or what have you. So thus, you put "creation" in quotations, as you don't really see anything created, including yourself, just results of random processes over eons of time. Let me know if I have pegged your thought there wrongly.

All well and good, but you miss my point, which is the universe quite objectively shows or evidences design. Look at your own example of the castle. Here's a question for you: Why does the castle gradually erode and cease being a castle instead of blossoming and becoming a nice Village? You acknowledge the change will be in one way, and that's downwards. As is the case with every other thing in existence for one reason. It's called the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, which states, "Everything tends from order to disorder". It's a universal, scientific law. How reasonable is it to think that a being with incredible and flawlessly operating systems slowly over time came that way by continually changing and mutating for the better? There is a better chance that I can take the 13,593 parts of a Lamborghini countach, put them in a box and shake them up ever day, 24x7 expecting that one day, at some point in time, I am going to open that box and see a beautiful perfectly completed car. Yet, that's what people believe. An honest scientific approach, in my opinion, show a universe that started at a high, operating level, and is now winding out.

Design- Did you know that in order for blood to clot, it takes 5 different chemical enzyme reaction to take place at the same time? If any of those are missing, blood won't clot....how does that evolve? (Those organisms missing the enzyme would bleed out, evolutionary process ceases). Or how about the Sex drive, how does that evolve? Endless examples really. Yet, we prefer to believe that random chance has brought us to a highly complex and perfectly balanced state. Which takes more "faith" to believe?

We believe in random processes producing organized life really for one reason....we were taught to believe it.

Good discussion, thanks.
 

DeletedUser

Well, I'm most likely not going back to puddle of goo. Some RNA strands seem more plausible to me.
Can you point out your source on 2LOT? Because none of the books I have nor any readily available internet source claims "Everything tends from order to disorder", and it doesn't adress living beings or architecture in first place either.
Living beings might be incredible, but they are by far not flawlessly operating systems.
Your Lamborghini analogy is not believed by scientists. So I dunno what that example was about to show?
As for blood clotting, I link you to Ken Miller, who explained it thoroughly: http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/DI/clot/Clotting.html
I can explain it to you more detailed myself, if you want to, but I feel already bad for Threadjacking, so we might better move on elsewhere.
 

DeletedUser

A person who doesn't believe in God will walk to a tree and conclude nature and chance put it there, but you walk up to a watch, would you conclude the same thing? No.

if something exists and functions with great precesion and good design, it shows there must be an intelligent designer for it. And the universe and the Earth function with far more precesion and complication than any watch.
 

DeletedUser

A person who doesn't believe in God will walk to a tree and conclude nature and chance put it there, but you walk up to a watch, would you conclude the same thing? No.


First of all, most people who believe in god will walk to said tree and conclude nature and chance put it there. Accepting reality and believing in a god isn't mutually exclusive.
Now, if you show me either a watch that reproduces and gives birth to other watches, or a tree that starts its existence due to a treemaker, I will consider your comparison reasonable.
Otherwise it just makes no sense, because watches are known to be made by watchmakers. Information how watches are made is available, so even if you don't know any watchmaker personally, there is overwhelming evidence for them.
A tree however is not the product of a treemaker, but the result of seeds of another tree. There is also no evidence at all for a treemaker, but plenty of material on botany about seeds and plant growth.
 

DeletedUser

31st OF MARCH, 2010

Gospel for today:
Matthew 26:14-25 The Betrayal by Judas

Food for thought:
When we know that God’s hand is in everything, we can leave everything in God’s hand.
.
:indian:
 

DeletedUser

Well, I'm most likely not going back to puddle of goo. Some RNA strands seem more plausible to me.
Can you point out your source on 2LOT? Because none of the books I have nor any readily available internet source claims "Everything tends from order to disorder", and it doesn't adress living beings or architecture in first place either.

It's simply Entropy, or the law of Entropy. It has been changed a lot as scientists have realized in recent years that it kinda screws up Evolution. You will find all kinds of explanations of course, but none of them seem to support simple observation. From Wiki:

"Thus, if entropy is associated with disorder and if the entropy of the universe is headed towards maximal entropy, then many are often puzzled as to the nature of the "ordering" process and operation of evolution in relation to Clausius' most-famous version of the second law, which states that the universe is headed towards maximal “disorder”. In the recent 2003 book SYNC – the Emerging Science of Spontaneous Order by Steven Strogatz, for example, we find “Scientists have often been baffled by the existence of spontaneous order in the universe. The laws of thermodynamics seem to dictate the opposite, that nature should inexorably degenerate toward a state of greater disorder, greater entropy. Yet all around us we see magnificent structures—galaxies, cells, ecosystems, human beings—that have all somehow managed to assemble themselves.” [14]

I'll put more time into your other points later. I am mindful of mutations as an example on Entropy....how many mutations have you seen that are truly beneficial? Simple observation seems to say the opposite. Really Jack, anyone can always justify what they want, and hey, that's the way we humans are. I would just again simply ask you to consider some of the amazing aspects of the human body, or the universe, and ask yourself if it doesn't really take a great deal of faith to leap to the conclusion that it's all random.

-Seamus

2nd law of thermodynamics: Physicist Lord Kelvin stated it technically as follows: "There is no natural process the only result of which is to cool a heat reservoir and do external work." In more understandable terms, this law observes the fact that the useable energy in the universe is becoming less and less. Ultimately there would be no available energy left. Stemming from this fact we find that the most probable state for any natural system is one of disorder. All natural systems degenerate when left to themselves.3[/QUOTELord Kelvin as quoted in A.W. Smith and J.N. Cooper, Elements of Physics, 8th edition (New York, New York: McGraw-Hill Publishing, 1972), p. 241.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

Here's a cool quote from Wilder-Smith on the subject:

“When one considers that the entire chemical information to construct a man, elephant, frog, or an orchid was compressed into two minuscule reproductive cells [sperm and egg nuclei], one can only be astounded.
In addition to this, all the information is available on the genes to repair the body (not only to construct it) when it is injured. If one were to request an engineer to accomplish this feat of information miniaturization, one would be considered fit for the psychiatric clinic.”

It is hard for me to imagine that although modern man today, with all of science and technology, cannot come close to reduplicating what we have in life and physiology, we think that it is completely plausible it was all an accident. Like I said, we can't even transplant an eyeball, let alone make one. Thus the illustration of the Lamborghini, it's representative of what man can build, but not many of us would say it could happen by chance. Does a car show less design than a man?

Cheers!

-Seamus
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

Seamus, you're making a cognitive error in all this. You're assuming because we don't have all the answers, it must invariably be "God."

Simply, if we don't have all the answers, we simply don't have all the answers. We can examine evidence/data and, from evidence, come to hypotheses. As more evidence becomes available, we revisit those hypotheses and test for fallibility.

God is not a theory, it's not a hypothesis, there is no substantiating evidence. God, as a concept, is a security blanket.
 

DeletedUser

Since you quoted wiki, I feel free to do the same:
"The second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the universal principle of entropy, stating that the entropy of an isolated system which is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium"

There are two parts that you left out in your argumentation:

1) Actually you quoted it yourself, but ignored it: "All natural systems degenerate when left alone".

2LOT applies to isolated systems. That means systems, in which mass and energy stay constant. None of your examples of magnificient structures, galaxies, cells, ecosystems and human beings are isolated. All of them are open systems.
And there is no reason, that would prevent open systems to decrease entropy. If heat flows from one body to another, we have one system with increasing and one system with decreasing entropy.
The only true isolated system we know, is the universe, but since it is expanding, it probably can never reach maximum entropy.

2) Increase of entropy is a tendency, not an instantaneous process.


If you want to use anything for your argumentation, make sure you use all of it, and don't just pick the parts that suit you and ignore the parts that contradict your argumentation. While using big words may help to convince some people of your own views, this happens on a mere rhetorical level, not an educational one.


ihow many mutations have you seen that are truly beneficial? Simple observation seems to say the opposite.

Nylon-eating bacteria and the ability to use citrate as an energy source in Lenski's E.coli come to mind.
And there are dozens of examples of mutations that became beneficial due to changing environmental pressures.



Thus the illustration of the Lamborghini, it's representative of what man can build, but not many of us would say it could happen by chance.

I still don't get your point. Are you implying someone would claim there was a liver, a brain, bones, skin etc at some point in time and they assembled by chance to create the modern human?
 

DeletedUser

Seamus, you're making a cognitive error in all this. You're assuming because we don't have all the answers, it must invariably be "God."

Simply, if we don't have all the answers, we simply don't have all the answers. We can examine evidence/data and, from evidence, come to hypotheses. As more evidence becomes available, we revisit those hypotheses and test for fallibility.

God is not a theory, it's not a hypothesis, there is no substantiating evidence. God, as a concept, is a security blanket.

Hi Hellstromm! Thanks for joining in.

Ok, I have to ask, did you read what I wrote? Nowhere do I assert that my thoughts are based on the fact that "we don't have all the answers" all though of course scientifically, that is true. What I am saying (I thought rather clearly, sorry if it has not been) is that based on the evidence that we DO have, we can conclude there is a designer. You don't even have to say it's God. Many scientists including the great Atheist Stephen Hawking allow for perhaps an alien cause of some type. (see Ben Stein's movie "Expelled"). If you don't think the creator is God, you are still more logically honest to say there must have been something, then to say we have gone from disorder to a very complex order all by chance.

Yes, please, examine the evidence. That's what I've purported from the beginning. I'm not seeing a "cognitive error" here. The evidence is strong for design, especially mathematically. If you don't want to say there is substantiating evidence for God, fine, but you would be a good scientist to say there is substantiating evidence for some kind of causal designer. Thus many folks hold to Theistic Evolution which at least acknowledges this observation. You seem to be espousing agnosticism; Maybe theres a God, maybe not, but it's outside our realm and ability to ever know.

God is a security blanket? Quite the contrary. I, as a natural man, would much rather believe that I can do and get away with whatever I want to in this life regardless of who I hurt or what it cost, (none of it would matter anyway in the long run) and not have to face any consequences ever, rather than be accountable to a creator that put me here. I find that far more troubling and anything but secure. I think it's actually more "secure" or comforting to believe there will never be a reckoning, and nothing to ever have to be accountable for (or to).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

When we know that God’s hand is in everything, we can leave everything in God’s hand.
.
:indian:

Actually, God's hand is not in everything yet.

1 John 5:19 We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one.

Satan's hand is in everything at this point.
 

DeletedUser

Saemus, I'm short on time right now, but let me just correct two things there:

1. Stephen Hawking is not an atheist.

2. There is 'no' evidence in support of God, none. You can point to a tree and say, "God made that," but such is not evidence, merely espoused causality.
 

DeletedUser

1. Stephen Hawking is not an atheist.

Of course not. I mistakenly was confusing Hawking with Dawkins. I meant Richard Dawkins. I've not read or heard anything from Hawking. Correction appreciated, was trying to write fast.

2. There is 'no' evidence in support of God, none. You can point to a tree and say, "God made that," but such is not evidence, merely espoused causality.

Case closed then, with no more point to a dialog for you. I suppose you are left with spontaneous generation as your premise for explaining the world in front of you. However, I would most humbly say, the assertion that there is no evidence for a designer behind the design is out of step with much of current scientific thought. You can do your own research if you are actually interested, but here is a small sampling.


Chemist Dr. Grebe:
“That organic evolution could account for the complex forms of life in the past and the present has long since been abandoned by men who grasp the importance of the DNA genetic code.”

Researcher and mathematician I.L. Cohen:
“At that moment, when the the DNA/RNA system became understood, the debate between Evolutionists and Creationists should have come to a screeching halt. …the implications of the DNA/RNA were obvious and clear. Mathematically speaking, based on probability concepts, there is no possibility that Evolution was the mechanism that created the approximately 6,000,000 species of plants and animals we recognize today.”

Evolutionist Michael Denton:
“The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle.”

Evolutionist Sir Fred Hoyle:
Supposing the first cell originated by chance is like believing “a tornado sweeping through a junk-yard might assemble a Boeing 747 from the materials therein.” (“Hoyle on Evolution,” Nature, Vol. 294, No. 5837 (November 12, 1981), p. 105.) Note: I was making the same point here with my Lamborghini example....although apparently quite poorly :blink:)

—Evolutionist Sir Fred Hoyle:
"The notion that… the operating programme of a living cell could be arrived at by chance in a primordial soup here on the Earth is evidently nonsense of a high order."

There are many origin-of-life researchers who now agree with Hoyle: Life could not have originated by chance or by any known natural processes. Many Evolutionists are now searching for some theoretical force within matter which might push matter toward the assembly of greater complexity. Other scientists believe this is doomed to failure as it violates the 2LOT, which I still need to respond to Jack on.

Hellstrom, this best says what I am trying to:

"It is important to note that the information written on DNA molecules is not produced by any known natural interaction of matter. Matter and molecules have no innate intelligence, allowing self organization into codes. There are no known physical laws which give molecules a natural tendency to arrange themselves into such coded structures.

Like a computer disk, DNA has no intelligence. The complex, purposeful codes of this “master program” could only have originated outside itself. In the case of a computer program, the original codes were put there by an intelligent being, a programmer. Likewise, for DNA, it seems clear that intelligence must have come first, before the existence of DNA. Statistically, the odds are enormously in favor of that theory. DNA bears the marks of intelligent manufacture."

I'll say again, we believe in a godless evolution because we were taught to believe it, and we hold on to it with incredible fervor because the alternative is simply unacceptable to us, despite the scientific and mathematic evidence that points elsewhere.

Best regards,

-Seamus


The Nobel Prize winning biochemist who helped develop penicillin, Dr. Ernst Chain, called the theory of Evolution "a very feeble attempt to understand the development of life:" (1972):
"I would rather believe in fairies than in such wild speculation. I have said for years that speculations about the origin of life lead to no useful purpose as even the simplest living system is far too complex to be understood in terms of the extremely primitive chemistry scientists have used in their attempts to explain the unexplainable. God cannot be explained away by such naïve thoughts."
That's a quote from his biography.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

1) I understand what a chemist, a researcher and a mathemetician are, but what is an evolutionist? It doesn't appear in my dictionary.

2) You can quote opinions of people all the day. The only thing it proves is, that people have opinions. It has no effect whatsoever on experiments, observations and scientific facts. This is especially true, since your quotes date back to the 1970s, when a whole branch of science (molecular biology) was practically unused and unknown. There are decades of research (in many disciplins), that these persons couldn't have included to form their opinion (unless you believe these persons travelled in time).
I might as well go ahead and find some smart people's quotes about the earth being flat or the impossibility to move outer space or walk on the moon. This just doesn't prove any facts at all, but again is a mere rhetorical method.

3) Your car, the first cell and the junkyard example make no sense. You assume, that there were all the single parts somewhere ready and completed and then fit together by chance. Evolution includes nothing like that, so I have no idea why you keep bringing it up?

4) I can't follow you. Why would DNA need a programmer? Show me a self-replicating computer disk and your comparison wouldn't sound as far-fetched.
"It is important to note that the information written on DNA molecules is not produced by any known natural interaction of matter."
-- So you claim, that radiation and mutagens (among other factors) have no effect on the information contained in DNA molecules?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top