Taxation

[DeletedUser]

I see you think posing age is going to be your counter to my rebuttal, rather than presentation of facts and evidence in support of your erroneous claims. As it is, I've been through this during all those Presidencies as well, so don't play the age card on me, it won't work.

As to Bush-bashing, no I state the facts. The Bush administration, and the Congress in place at that time, did a tremendous amount of damage by releasing the floodgates on a series of issues (which I can list). The damage caused by this is long-term. Present and future Presidents have their hands full merely closing those floodgates. Stemming the flood itself? That's another chore altogether and not resolved in a matter of a mere two years.

But the more important part of this, is that I amply demonstrated your arguments are flawed and, instead of rebutting the evidence I presented, you try and name-call and distract from the issue with a series of fallacious arguments, false logic. It is lame debate and not worthy of such a serious topic as this. Play your games, I'll expose them for what they are.

 

[DeletedUser]

and the story goes..

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

 

[DeletedUser]

and the story goes..

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

If you think about it, what this means is that it's not possible for people to learn.
In my own experience that is not true - I have learnt a great deal since I was in short pants I hope yet to learn still more.

But I do know that you cannot accurately model a complex system with a simple one. At first glance you might think you could make a car go faster if you saved weight by making the engine block out of something lighter than steel, but if you suggested this to a knowledgeable auto-engineer they would simply think you were a fool.
Things are the way they are for a reason, and smarter guys than me and Hellstrom are working on these sytems all the time. Why do so many goverments come into office promising and intending to reduce taxes and the public deficit but wind up doing the opposite? Because once they talk to the people who actually understand these things they realise it's not as simple as they thought.

If you deprive a poor man of money he will still find a way to eat and it may well end up costing you more for police, probationers, prisons and hospital bills than if you gave him enough to get by on in the first place. Some people have figured this out but for others the penny has yet to drop.

 

[DeletedUser]

and the story goes..

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

Can we surmise you just felt the need to drop a line of propaganda and are no longer going to attempt to debate the issue?

Returning to the core topic, which is taxation, it's a tough issue, no doubt. As Eli indicated, it's not a simple topic. I don't feel taxation has much to do with welfare programs (other than helping to pay for such, as it does for military programs), so I find that line of discussion to be a distraction to the core topic.

As I indicated earlier, the World Wars initiated taxation on many levels, and it has since expanded far beyond the initial scope. The initial reasons for taxation were to pay for the war effort, to afford the build-up of our large military. Taxation stayed largely because that very same military, primarily the equipment, needed to be maintained. With taxation, the government now had a means of revenue and Congress after Congress, along with the Presidents, signed into law one expansion of government or another, one program or another, but mostly just an expansion of the military (i.e., the military-industrial complex taking root). Each Congress had a new idea, but failed to remove the old ideas. Eventually the taxation was insufficient and the government fell into deficits, borrowing to cover the additional expenses. Walking the tightrope in such a fashion resulted in a nation that as incapable of handling emergencies or economic downturns, resulting in even greater borrowing, even more taxes.

The issue here is not to give tax breaks to anyone, it's to make a smarter approach to tax management, through tax incentives (similar to what Carter instituted in the late 70's) for hiring and labor stimulation, through increased import taxes and the institution of Fair Trade as a prerequisite to doing business in or with the United States. It's by slowly weaning ourselves from programs that are clearly not necessary and removing our intrusive military footprint from the international community. It's by downsizing the military and streamlining other programs. There are a multitude of activities the government is undertaking that they simply do not need to be a part of, particularly when they are merely providing free services to corporations, or are puppets to such (i.e., Mineral Management Service).

So yes, there is a need to reduce taxation, but not without first reducing the expenses, not without first resolving the fat cat that the government itself has become, not without removing all the parasitical businesses attached to such. And yes, there are plenty of businesses getting a good chunk of citizenry tax money, through government payouts, bail-outs, unproductive incentive programs, overpriced non-bid contracting, etc and so on. Plenty of work to be done, but such things need to be done - before - reduction of taxes, before giving anyone a "tax break," particularly the wealthy.

 

[DeletedUser]

Holy Mother of Pearl . . .

Is this what the debates have come to? Common sense, you guys. Taxes are necessary, but they should only be spent on what is necessary. No kidding, no one likes to give their money away. Who does? But like John said, what do you think paid for your freedom and security? However, I also agree with the others who said taxes shouldn't be spent on crap, and I'll be the first to say America's government is spending a good deal our taxes on BS. What should be questioned is what our government spends our tax dollars on, not whether or not we should pay taxes.

 

[DeletedUser9470]

They say they spend it on usefull things for the community, and instead spend it on rubbish we dont need.

Dont you think its ludicrous that all our boroughs and councils spend tax on crap, knowingly, so that they meet their target so they get funding for next year...?
If they dont spend all the funding then they dont get any funding the next year!
So we have million pound roundabouts for generations of kids who cant add up 2 n 2 cos they didnt get any funding at school...
just 1 example...

another example:
(((price of packet of cigarettes)*Import tax)*VAT)=wholesale price!!!!
yes! you pay Vat on Tax!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
tax is also taxed! LMAO

Great work UK, thanks to all our parents and grandparents for pissing this country down the toilet.

 

[DeletedUser12669]

that aint too bad Neo the uk pays about £20 million a day to the eu thats pishing money down the drain

 

[DeletedUser]

Ugh, there goes another person trying to argue that the EU is a bad thing.

 

[DeletedUser12669]

Ugh, there goes another person trying to argue that the EU is a bad thing.

not saying it is mr H all im saying is why should the uk pay so much per year when the tory govenment are making so many cuts in services

 

[DeletedUser16008]

Ugh, there goes another person trying to argue that the EU is a bad thing.

Never going to convince a lot of people, and especially the British including me paying a tax to an outside body...

Taxation is it bad ? yes & no

Governments claim to collect taxes to pay for services and projects for the good of the general public. Without tax funds, governments would have no way of paying for a police force to keep the rule of law for example.In modern times, most tax revenue goes to spending on social welfare services, such as Social Security retirement and to fund the military.

Governments also institute taxes to help discourage activities that society deems undesirable at times, such as smoking. Pollution taxes are considered one way to stop
Global climate change.. taxes such as this are a false tax imposed with some excuse its required yet not any of it directed at the problem they tax in the first place..

In theory, taxes should make governments more accountable to the citizenry.Eg t he American Revolution started in part because the colonists were taxed, but not represented in British Parliament right ?. Also, taxes on the rich its alleged can be used to redistribute income to the poorer classes thats hardly the case and falls on the middle income classes not the rich. In general, societies tend to see taxes as a necessary evil, but still debate about the rate of taxation and who should get taxed.For sure the rich continue to increase the gap between them and the rest.. In a supposedly modern world and civilized, in the west at least this should be subsiding but its not.

One thing is for sure, its nowhere near balanced. The rich avoid paying tax as much as they can and call them loopholes they exploit or creative accounting. Generally its the middle income bracket that carries the burden mostly...

As for big business ? well probably around 50 or so compete in the top 100 GDP including nations ... so no big business is not taxed anywhere nearly enough but we all know that right ?

 

[DeletedUser]

I miss one thing in this discussion, how mush do people pay in taxes and what do they get for it?
In Denmark we pay 50% in tax, in return we get free healthcare, free education, free help for pensioners and disabled in their home and a pension around 50% of an average salary, that's on top of the normal public services.

 

[DeletedUser28032]

I can't remember the tax rate in the UK at the moment but in theory we also get free education and the NHS along with various income support and job seeker allowances etc, so its not all bad although it does seem to be spent on crap alot of the time, like a new county council logo.
As for pensions well sadly I think most of us over here will have to provide our own.

But like everyone else here has already said, I pay my taxes, I don't like the idea of losing a chunk of my wages but it has to be done else nothing would get done

 

[DeletedUser22493]

I pay 40% tax of all my income, pluss another 25% sales tax on everything I buy.
Not to mention road tax, car tax, estate tax, community tax and so on..

I don't think its all that bad, since I have free health coverage, school & other securites.

But I do mind that the people spending my money do it with such little enthusiasem.
Its like the only thing they care about is being re-elected. No matter how many lies they have to make to get there.

80% of all the roads Norway have today, were built by Hitler during WW2. Today it takes 5 death-accidents & 30 news headlines for them to make a pedestrian walkway.

Norwegian politicians are to self-content and house-warm. They need a riot to shake things up a bit.

But all in all, I don't really care. I don't belive my opinions can change anything.
I do what is must to survive and live happy. With out without the goverments approoval.

 

[DeletedUser]

I pay 40% tax of all my income, pluss another 25% sales tax on everything I buy.
Not to mention road tax, car tax, estate tax, community tax and so on..

I don't think its all that bad, since I have free health coverage, school & other securites.

But I do mind that the people spending my money do it with such little enthusiasem.
Its like the only thing they care about is being re-elected. No matter how many lies they have to make to get there.

80% of all the roads Norway have today, were built by Hitler during WW2. Today it takes 5 death-accidents & 30 news headlines for them to make a pedestrian walkway.

Norwegian politicians are to self-content and house-warm. They need a riot to shake things up a bit.

But all in all, I don't really care. I don't belive my opinions can change anything.
I do what is must to survive and live happy. With out without the goverments approoval.

Facts to back it up.
Especially the claim about 80% of the roads.

 

[DeletedUser22493]

Ill honestly admit I cant find facts to back that 80% up, so ill have to withdraw that statement.
The Germans put down a noticeable amount of road infrastructure, that now is a large part of our road system today.

It's a saying that goes; "If Germany had occupied Norway for 3 more years (during the occupation in 1940-1945), we would have had a 4 lane autobahn through the whole country."
It was more meant as a comparison of the grossly time consuming bureaucracy we have, that prevents us from getting anything done due to politicians pushing paper, instead of "putting hand on shovel."
Which leads to another saying by the folksinger "Øystein Sunde"; "De bruker tusenvis av kroner for a spare en tier." (Trans: They spend hundreds of dollars to save a quarter.)

Much of this comes from a personal aspect of things. Ive seen too many broken promises, and too many bad excuses to trust our politicians. And ill back that up with facts, should you want them.

 

[DeletedUser]

Ill honestly admit I cant find facts to back that 80% up, so ill have to withdraw that statement.
The Germans put down a noticeable amount of road infrastructure, that now is a large part of our road system today.

It's a saying that goes; "If Germany had occupied Norway for 3 more years (during the occupation in 1940-1945), we would have had a 4 lane autobahn through the whole country."
It was more meant as a comparison of the grossly time consuming bureaucracy we have, that prevents us from getting anything done due to politicians pushing paper, instead of "putting hand on shovel."
Which leads to another saying by the folksinger "Øystein Sunde"; "De bruker tusenvis av kroner for a spare en tier." (Trans: They spend hundreds of dollars to save a quarter.)

Much of this comes from a personal aspect of things. Ive seen too many broken promises, and too many bad excuses to trust our politicians. And ill back that up with facts, should you want them.

Don't mind if you do, but we're getting off topic here

Edit: You do not pay 25% sales tax on everything you buy.
That is incorrect.

 

[DeletedUser22493]

Indeed we are.
My opinion to tax is this. I don't mind it, as long as its used for the right purposes.

If every politician and bureaucrat sought to do what was best for its country, at the best of their abilities & understanding, then I would hold nothing against them.
Should they make mistakes, then those are honest mistakes. At least they did their best.

Unfortunately, that is not always the case.
To win an election these day, the honest are forced to make promises they don't know if they can keep, to have a chance to compete with the dishonest, who deliberately make promises they cant keep to get enough votes win.

Its an evil circle, and the reason I don't care about politics.

 

[DeletedUser]

Tax is important to mankind.. but like Kruger said.. hidden/stealth taxes tick me off, we are taxed on everything not just income. It's getting out of hand, yet the national dept still piles up.

 

[DeletedUser]

Hmm, so how is tax "important to mankind?" Is it, like, the 10 Commandments important, or more like remembering to put the toilet seat down important?