I can't seem to do it...

  • Thread starter David Schofield
  • Start date

DeletedUser

Ok... So here's the deal... I just don't get it.

I need someone here who can explain why Animals should have the same rights as humans, and I need someone to explain why I shouldn't be allowed to own semi-auto rifles and pistols. These are the only two subjects in which I just don't get the other sides view point at all, ok? I mean, I can probably learn why some people want to ban semi-auto guns, but damn, Animal rights is a tough one. I've learned from my opposing sides by being told what exactly they think and the true benefits of the choices by Hellstromm, Adelei, Divest, and JR, but Guns are a tough one (simply because I have assault rifles and I am a frowney face when someone mentions my guns shouldn't be allowed) and I just hate Animal Rights activists with a great animosity because they are repetitive in their explanation and don't say enough other than three main things: We have rights so should animals, Animals have feelings and are sentient beings, and Animals should not be abused unnecessarly. Over and over and that's it.

I am trying to be the most open minded person, but those two subjects strain me.

Oh, and Oisinallen was one of the first men to set me on the path to openmindedness. I appreciate him in all his glory and would be really glad if he came in and stopped by for us :)
 

DeletedUser

i agree with you on the whole animal cruelty thing and I'm against animal testing. but come on, what rights do animals really NEED? did an ostrich get executed for trying to practice Catholicism? did a jellyfish get denied a job for Parliament? and honestly, i dont think my pet dog is going to picket for her freedom of speech. lets get serious...
 

DeletedUser13636

Well David I have no plan to try and debate animal rights with you, but I do believe that animals deserve some level of protection. Think of it like this, what if humans were to become a less superior being and we were the ones who were getting mistreated. History already has many such examples that I will not list due to the political and racial aspects involved, but I am sure if you think about it you will know some of those instances. My point is if you think about it and try to empathize just the slightest bit then you should have no trouble understanding it. I do agree that some activists seem to take the issue to the extreme for sure, equal rights is taking it a bit too far in my opinion.

P.S.
Tell whoever told you that you could not have semi-auto rifles and pistols I said you could have them, unless you are mentally unstable that is. :unsure:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

i think animals should be PROTECTED. but equal rights is ridiculous.
 

DeletedUser13682

Animals were meant to be eaten, or used to help with labor, or to be our compainions. They deserve the rights that go with being meat, labor, or companion. There's no other way I can see it. I also don't see why 2nd Amendment rights should be repealed. I believe that there may be some changes to how people get accepted for gun licenses, and maybe stricter surveillence on weapons, but an outright ban? That we could not accept in America. We're too used to the status quo, it'd be like suddenly taking away our 1st Amendment rights.
 

DeletedUser13682

I thought it was funny. My response was another failed attempt to be funny.
 

DeletedUser13636

I thought it was funny. My response was another failed attempt to be funny.

Oh it was definitely funny, no doubt. :laugh:

And also just to let folks know, I am an Exterminator in real life so killing things is something I get paid to do, but I still empathize with the folks who want to protect life and prevent the suffering of a living creature.
 

DeletedUser

If it were possible for everyone (and everything) on Earth to have a well balanced diet without anything having to die, I'd say that killing animals would be a bad thing. The problem then would be that there'd be no room to move because everything would be overpopulated rather than just humans and mosquitoes.

I don't like the idea of killing animals, but can see why it's done. I just hate to see them made to suffer. If you feel the need to kill something, try to do it in a way that's as humane as possible. If you can't kill something without having to shoot it 6 times, maybe you should try target practice or skeet shooting before you actually hunt. I also don't see much sense in killing just for the sake of killing - if it isn't going to be eaten, isn't trying to live rent free in your home and isn't trying to kill you, what's the point?
 

DeletedUser

I also don't see much sense in killing just for the sake of killing - if it isn't going to be eaten, isn't trying to live rent free in your home and isn't trying to kill you, what's the point?

Humans are not the only ones who practise this. Lots of predators kill just for fun. I think that this is never going to change.
 

DeletedUser8950

Guns are not toys, or items of epic awesomeness, they are tools used to achieve a purpose-killing, obviously. People should recognize that tbh, to me most people who own guns don't have any idea about the context they're used in and what it's actually like to use them.
 

DeletedUser

A long and painful speech by me. Yays.

Guns are not toys, or items of epic awesomeness, they are tools used to achieve a purpose-killing, obviously. People should recognize that tbh, to me most people who own guns don't have any idea about the context they're used in and what it's actually like to use them.

I am well aware that guns are not toys, darknoon. I am well-aware of their initial purpose. Do I use guns to kill? Yes, but those guns I use to kill are #1. The shotgun, and #2. The Hunting rifle. I own other types of guns as well, Darknoon, and these guns are very controversial, and I know what context they are intended for usage in, and I do not use them for their intended context. I use them for recreation and leisure. You see, the Assault rifle, (had to say it.), is initially a Military Purpose rifle, designed for incredibly efficient slaughter of other human beings. However, my AR is used for target shooting in its civilian life, and it is semi-automatic only. You see, target shooting is pointless, but it is practice as well. Practice for what, exactly? In the VERY unlikely scenario that we here in America are to have a civil war, It will be necessary for my own survival that I have the ability to be proficient with one, as my life would depend on it. Now, that's one of the few useless scenarios that exist. Here are some more down-to-earth and real ones that take place here.
One, would be target competitions. Target competitions pit some of the best shootists against eachother in target shooting, in other words, using a class of weapon to fire multiple rounds into a target efficiently and accurately. I am interested in this competition, and I enjoy practicing for such occasions because when I grow older, I plan to enter in one myself to see if I can win prize money. It is a waste of a bullet, or so it seems. You see, the brass that any weapon fires has a reloading potential, therefore, if I fire and recover fourty brass cartridges, then I can later reload them with black powder, a primer, and the bullets themselves, resulting in another 40 rounds to fire through my gun.
Two, would be self defence. The assault rifles intended use is to kill, thus, it naturally fits this rule in terms of home defence. If I were to live in a dangerous negiborhood, I would want to have some way to protect myself and my house. By keeping my weapons locked inside of a 600 pound safe, as well as close to my bed, I would be able to defend myself, children, or wife in the case of a break-in. As assured by the Castle-Law, in effect in several American states, I have the right to kill home intruders. Thus, if someone broke in and tried to steal my LCD television, I would have the legal right to fire upon him. It would also be in my best interest to do so, as many American criminals are repeat offenders, or may come back with a grudge for being rushed out of their robbery, in which it would be best for me to simply put them down because being an American, I am well aware of what criminal Americans will do. I read it on MSNBC and news sites everywhere, criminals break in, beat up old couples, rape children, and escape with sometimes hundreds of dollars worth of assets and 30 percent of the time get away with the initial robbery scott-free. I wouldn't let that happen, and although a Pump-action shotgun may be just as effective, a Soviet AK-47 would be even-more such if there are multiple armed intruders as it is not only loud and fearsome, but deadly accurate at close ranges, and deadly in general.
Third, hunting. Hunting is a useful sport as well as way of life. Currently, I live on the boarder of a city, where I am in a rural area. 10-12 deer pass through my area daily, and it would be possible for me to attach a scope to any one of my assault rifles. Do I need all these rounds to hunt? No, but it pays if you miss a shot. It may seem like overkill, but most normal people know that it is simply common sense to not waste rounds into the dirt and conserve ammo when necessary. Firing a bunch of rounds into the body of a deer can ruin the meat, but an Assault (or battle) rifle can ensure plenty of rounds are avalible, and that not all are necessary for the kill. I could use an FN-FNAR to hunt, using a large .308 round to down a deer from 200 yards away, where If I miss, I can do a quick follow up and have something to eat. It is also even more effective up north in areas like Montana, Alaska, and west in Wyoming. Hunting larger game like Bear, Elk, Moose, and sometimes other breeds can require larger bullets, or more for that matter. Also in the case of bears, there can be a large amount of danger involved, if you are hunting for deer up north, then you would be SOL if you came across a starving or diseased bear with a bolt-action rifle, as seen on Animal PLanet, where the danger of being mauled and killed is quite high. If you have a charging bear running at you, you would want to be sure that you can kill it. A large caliber hunting rifle may do the trick, but if you miss or the single shot doesn't kill it, you may be pissing your pants too much before you are able to load another round into the chamber. Using an AR-10 or FNAR could easilly down it, and if it doesn't die in one shot or you miss, you have 10-30 more bullets at your disposal.

Finally, nearly 40% of gun-related crimes in America are committed with a legally acquired gun, mainly from retail stores where they sell with little or no looking into the customers history, or at gunstores with incompetent management. The rest are either illegally acquired, or borrowed, from a friend or family member and used to do the deed. These people force others to fear the firearm, and be well aware of the bad potential of the weapon.

Even if Assault rifles and pistols were banned from sales, illegal influx of weaponry into the United states would soar higher than ever, and we would see the true potential of criminals arise. And citizens that already own the weapons would refuse to hand them over for any compensation, even if that meant gunning down law officials, because those who refuse will generally become outlaws because they would see it as a martyrdom.

I know these types of people, and I know who I am. I wouldn't hand anything over to the government, because I interpret the Second amendment in a unique way of my own.

In my own opinion, when the Second Amendment is meant to be interpreted in a certain way.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

A Militia is ordinarilly thought of as a Civilian paramilitary force. I too believe such. As an American citizen, I find myself a necessity to this force, and I am already well regulated as background checks and mental stability scannings, and the limiting of fully automatic firearms and explosives are in my opinion good regulations. Thus, we are well-regulated as-is. Now, we are necessary to the security of a free state, a state free of foreign rule, a state of America and not any others. There was a good reason the emperor of Japan didn't invade, and that was because, as Yamamoto put it, "there would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." And the Japanese are world renounded for being pretty damned smart. That's the way it was back then, and that's the way it is now. Next, is the right to bare arms. In the time of the founding fathers of America, G.W. didn't want a standing army, but Sheys Rebellion changed that. The Federal government needed a standing army with the best equipment to stand guard over the states, and keep everyone orderly and prepared for any wars, home or foreign. But, we can't rely on the Army itself because it's just a bunch of soldiers trained to do what they do, we need to be able to stand up for ourselves as well. We can't do that when we are limited to bolt and pump and one-shots. We need to atleast be as close as possible to our own military's armaments. You see, the closest we are allowed is to have semi-automatic versions of our military weapons. Of course, people with full-auto permits are allowed otherwise, but that's a different story. As an American citizen, I have the right to bear arms as one of the well regulated militia men, and my right should not be infringed. Thus, I have 3 assault rifles, 8 pistols, and a few rifles. These are necessary to protection, my protection, even though it may be overkill, we can all diversify. Now, as I feel that I am digressing, I think it is time to end this ramble one a high note. We are all people, and we all should have the right to defend ourselves, our loves, and our homes when we are in danger. We should be allowed to stand a chance if our country were to become a totalitarian police state under martial law, regardless of how unrealistic it may seem. We are all humans, and just fists and feet don't cut it anymore. We can't be like the Boers, we have to be self-sufficient. We have to stand a chance if threatened.
 

DeletedUser

gun-crazy people make me go :O

equipping yourself with 10+ guns for a civil war is a very sick reason.. where I live, such a reason would only get me laughs when I'd apply for a firearm licence from the police.
I'm sorry, but where I live, we dont have a right to carry a pistol when we go out to buy groceries, so I really dont see any reason why people should have guns with them all the time, and why they'd need to protect themselfs from anything with a gun.

USA has the highest density of firearms in the world, 90guns/100ppl, my country is the 3rd on this list, 32/100, but most of them are hunting rifles, almost none of them are pistols.
We have universal conscription in the army for men, so almost everyone gets to shoot with an automatic rifle at one point in their life, so they do have at least some skills of handling their hunting rifles.


semi-automatic rifles, like a shotgun, are useful in hunting, and I dont see much reason to ban them.
But in my country there is stress to ban all semi-auto PISTOLS. These guns have been used in school shootings (2 top40 spreekillers in the past 2 years), mall killings, illegal activities...
That's the only reason I see these guns are useful for, small yet powerful, easy to conceal and cheap. You dont hunt with a pistol and if you want to target practice, you can do it with a single shot pistol.


Animal rights, I know, can be very hard to understand, if you are willing to shoot even a man for just breaking into your house to steal your TV; all life is sacred and we should respect it. We are not better than animals/the man who wants your material.
Killing them when you need food is cool, but shooting one for eating cherries from your garden / because you are superior to them, is not.


TL;DR: ban semi-auto PISTOLS, respect LIFE, americans make me scared
 

DeletedUser

Well David is right, banning something will NEVER solve the problem. Those who are in desperate need of firearm will find a way to obtain one.

But semi-auto pistols are used by either law-enforcement or criminals. If people want self-defense, then there are other types of guns for that purpose. The availability of those guns should defiantly be regulated.

Just recently I saw a documentary about guns. The thing that caught my attention was this:
1. People with guns kill.
2. People without guns die.
 

DeletedUser

Guns are used for 2 purposes, killing people and hunting.
Where I live, hunting with a pistol is illegal, so I really dont see any reason why civilians would need semi-auto pistols.

Except for criminal purposes.
But illegal weapons have nothing to do with this matter, since I feel that illegal things are an issue for the police to handle, not for civilians.
I'm myself trying to get a shotgun permit to prepare for the apocalypse (not kidding:razz:) but with a criminal record I'm not sure if it's going to pass...
Still I feel it would be better to give any robber that threatens me with a gun my tv if he wants and let the insurance cover it, than start a gun-fight with him.

I certainly feel more safe in a gun-free enviroment, than in a place where everyone and myself have guns.
"If you live in constant fear, you dont learn how to love"

If I were living in the USA though, I think I'd have a totally different approach to this matter. People there are so different; most are scared of terrorism and everyone already has a gun, so I would be scared to be in a minority, without a gun, so I would propably carry a pistol with me always too.
Even the cops there (in tv-shows) scare the life out of me, holding their guns ready to shoot, even when just stopping a stolen vehicle, since they always have to assume that the criminal is armed.

people get drunk and do stupid stuff. If you have guns available to you, you are more likely to use them, than when you dont have guns (tumble)

Rico
: The innocent only exist until they inevitably become perpatrators. Guilt or innocence is a matter of timing. (Judge Dredd)
 

DeletedUser

gun-crazy people make me go :O

equipping yourself with 10+ guns for a civil war is a very sick reason.. where I live, such a reason would only get me laughs when I'd apply for a firearm licence from the police.
I'm sorry, but where I live, we dont have a right to carry a pistol when we go out to buy groceries, so I really dont see any reason why people should have guns with them all the time, and why they'd need to protect themselfs from anything with a gun.

USA has the highest density of firearms in the world, 90guns/100ppl, my country is the 3rd on this list, 32/100, but most of them are hunting rifles, almost none of them are pistols.
We have universal conscription in the army for men, so almost everyone gets to shoot with an automatic rifle at one point in their life, so they do have at least some skills of handling their hunting rifles.


semi-automatic rifles, like a shotgun, are useful in hunting, and I dont see much reason to ban them.
But in my country there is stress to ban all semi-auto PISTOLS. These guns have been used in school shootings (2 top40 spreekillers in the past 2 years), mall killings, illegal activities...
That's the only reason I see these guns are useful for, small yet powerful, easy to conceal and cheap. You dont hunt with a pistol and if you want to target practice, you can do it with a single shot pistol.


Animal rights, I know, can be very hard to understand, if you are willing to shoot even a man for just breaking into your house to steal your TV; all life is sacred and we should respect it. We are not better than animals/the man who wants your material.
Killing them when you need food is cool, but shooting one for eating cherries from your garden / because you are superior to them, is not.


TL;DR: ban semi-auto PISTOLS, respect LIFE, americans make me scared

I didn't say that I was equiping myself with 20+ guns for a civil war, but they would come in handy if that were to happen. I am sorry that you have to go through hell to get a gun in your country. You deserve better than to have to go to the police for a damned license. In America, gunstore owners are in majority good, with a lesser amount out for money and that is it. If someone kills another person with a gun, then the gun that the gunstore sold is basically a defaming characteristic, and both civilians and the government alike will shun your buisiness. That's why gunstore owners have to run background checks through the telephone when someone is signing up to buy a weapon here. As for pistols...

Pistols, I too, see little/no use for. They are basically intended for conceal/carry purposes, and they aren't much use until you have actually encountered the criminals on the street that are out to get you, either via mugging, or are pickpockets, rapists, possibly just some gang, either way you would feel better when you are watching an assailant running away as you point a .44 mag revolver at him and can see him scurrying back into the dark depths of the city that he came from. Truth is, most people are afraid to pull a gun in public like that, and they would do it only if they felt it was necessary.

Guns are used for 2 purposes, killing people and hunting.
Where I live, hunting with a pistol is illegal, so I really dont see any reason why civilians would need semi-auto pistols.

Except for criminal purposes.
But illegal weapons have nothing to do with this matter, since I feel that illegal things are an issue for the police to handle, not for civilians.
I'm myself trying to get a shotgun permit to prepare for the apocalypse (not kidding:razz:) but with a criminal record I'm not sure if it's going to pass...
Still I feel it would be better to give any robber that threatens me with a gun my tv if he wants and let the insurance cover it, than start a gun-fight with him.

I certainly feel more safe in a gun-free enviroment, than in a place where everyone and myself have guns.
"If you live in constant fear, you dont learn how to love"

If I were living in the USA though, I think I'd have a totally different approach to this matter. People there are so different; most are scared of terrorism and everyone already has a gun, so I would be scared to be in a minority, without a gun, so I would propably carry a pistol with me always too.
Even the cops there (in tv-shows) scare the life out of me, holding their guns ready to shoot, even when just stopping a stolen vehicle, since they always have to assume that the criminal is armed.

people get drunk and do stupid stuff. If you have guns available to you, you are more likely to use them, than when you dont have guns (tumble)

Rico: The innocent only exist until they inevitably become perpatrators. Guilt or innocence is a matter of timing. (Judge Dredd)

Guns are not used for two purposes, guns are used for three. The first two you had right, but there is also target practice that they are used for. Now, I would go on, but my time is short. I think they should ban alchohol instead, more people die because of it than from guns, but rednecks would have been preparing for the day for quite some time and we will have the mafia on our hands. Only proper education can work, and the rebeliousness of the stupid children these days make them ignore the law.
 

DeletedUser9470

My views on this are fairly simple and seem to me right and logical:

1st owning guns: the only reason why anyone has a gun in the first place is to kill.
so the debate isnt owning guns really, its about killing.
killing to eat > good
killing for fun > bad
killing human beings > bad because cannot eat them!
so unless you live in an extremely remote area with no macdonalds round the corner, then all other reasons for having a gun are BAD.

if you cannot understand this then there is an extremely thick fog around your braincell that you have todeal with first. maybe use a gun? idk
lol
LET ALONE ASSAULT RIFLES! i see no extreme activists down your way that are constantly trying to blow you up!
it is because of people like you that USA have 11000 people die every year of a bullet wound!!
thats more than the entire irak war put together in 1 year on your own soil!!!
forget warring the rest of the world, sort your own war out first!

Also whilst you are at it please train your army to shoot these terrorists and to stop shooting the civilians...
I truthfully reckon that 90% of kills by US army are civilians, mothers and children included.
USA is for me and for many people around the world AN EXTREMELY RICH TERRORIST CELL.

2nd animal testing: for sure it isnt very nice to test on animals. but it is necessary.
if you are against animal tesing then you should put yourself up for getting things tested on yourself...
if you dont want to do this then you will have to put up with tests being done on animals...
I dont see yourself up there(animal rights activist) so im guessing right now you have still chosen the animal test and as such there is no debate here either.
grow up!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

2nd animal testing: for sure it isnt very nice to test on animals. but it is necessary.
if you are against animal tesing then you should put yourself up for getting things tested on yourself...
if you dont want to do this then you will have to put up with tests being done on animals...
I dont see yourself up there(animal rights activist) so im guessing right now you have still chosen the animal test and as such there is no debate here either.
grow up!

You sound like the Nazis: Its not nice to experiment with how many limbs a person can live with, put it has to be done. Thats why we have the war prisoners for...
 
Top