How do mechanics of Fortfighting actually work

Zeta-Navy

Pre-scriptum: sorry for the long read, but i tried to be as clear as possible

Folks,

I made this thread since in the ideas and brainfarts, and many discussions in the saloon about the new Fortfighting(FF) system there just shows a clear sign of a lack of knowledge of the more intimate workings of fortfighting, most know globally how it work, but to really know what suggestions and changes would do to the fortfighting, and how it comes that the current imbalance between defences and attacks came into place with the current new formula's its important to understand the inner workings.(also since the wiki on it is quite outdated)

how does hitting and dodging work
ok where to start, uhm lets start with the explanation of FF attack and FF defence.
contrary to what it sounds like its not 1 skill is used for when your the attacker and the other for when your defending.

FF attack is the stat used for if you land a hit or not, FF defence is a skill used to calculate if you dodge a hit or not. And both are used as attacking side or as defending side of an Fortfight (sorry can't make it much clearer then this)

those 2 stats together with distance penalty (will come back later to that) are used in the next formulas to decide if you hit or not:

A = FF Attack (the number next to the crossed axes at fort battle character stats) - malus for distance
D = FF Defence(the number next to the shield)

If A>D then the chance to hit is (A-D/2)/A.
Otherwise the chance to hit is A/2D.
the chance to hit is a percentage that works just like with jobs, to clarify for instance you doing transporting prisoners and got 48% for a shackle to drop, however you do 10 jobs and only find 1, or you do 10 job and then find 9. just like with jobs you need a bit of luck, however the higher the percentage the more chance you do actually land a hit

thus with for instance the formula gets you to hit 48% you still can miss 10 shots on a row or hit 10 times on row, but on average you hit about 1 outta 2 shots.

I will come back to this formula later, to explain ti further, also remember the chance to hit might differ every round, since you might be shooting at someone else with a difference FF defence etc.

How do skills influence Fortfight Attack and Defence

At the last paragraph i explained about FF Attack and FF Defence. This is how they are calculated:

Leadership^0.5 + Skill2^0.4 + Skill 3^0.6 + Sector Attack Bonus or Sector Defense Bonus + Special Bonuses + Default Bonus

Where:

Skill 2 is Aim or Dodge
Skill 3 is Stamina or Hiding
Sector Attack Bonus is the FF Attack bonuses provided by the structures (if any)
Sector Defense Bonus is the FF Defence bonuses provided by the structures (if any)
Special Bonuses are additional bonuses provided by structures (ie Tower Class Bonus)
Default Bonus is 25 FF attack and 10 FF Defence
If you just see that it looks like a bit of mumbo jumbo, also since the wiki and the game, use different terminology sometimes for the same thing it only gets more confusing.

As you can see for both stats always 3 skills are important. however which skill is important for what?

- Stamina is a skill solely used if you are in the attacking side(red) of a fortfight and affects your FF attack and FF defence then.
- Hiding is solely used if you are on the defending(blue) side of a fortfight and increases your FF attack and FF defence.
- Aim is only used for the calculation of FF attack (for both if your defending or attacking a fort)
- Dodge is only used for the calculation of FF defence(for both if your defending or attacking a fort)
- Leadership increases your FF attack and FF defence (for both if your defending or attacking a fort), also leadership determines order of movement, shooting and damage multipliers(more on those later)

this sums up to:
as attacking(red) side you use the following skills:
FF attack =stamina+aim+leadership
FF Defence = stamina+dodge+leadership

as Defending side you use the following skills:
FF Attack = Hiding + aim + Leadership
FF Defence = Hiding + dodge + leadership

To use 2 examples now
Example 1:
You are on the Attacking (red) side
you got 92 stamina 100 leadership 56 aim and 56 dodge, and you got no fancy special clothing.

Your FF attack= 100^0.5 + 56^0.4 + 92^0.6 +25(default bonus!) = 55 FF attack
your FF Defence= 100^0.5+56^0.4 + 92^0.6+10(default bonus!)= 40 FF Defence.

Example 2:
This one will be more complicated, since you are on the defending (blue) side since you are on your class tower which is build to level 4. Also you are in possesion of the Golden Gun set as special pieces of clothing.

a level 4 towers gives: +27 FF attack + 20 FF defence and if its your own class tower it gives another +20 FF attack and 20 FF defence.

your Golden Gun set gives also +3 FF attack and +3 FF defence, and since your on a tower also +2 FF attack sector bonus and + 2 FF defence Sector bonus.

Your skills are 144 leadership 148 hiding 88 aim and 16 dodge

Your FF Attack will be: 144^0.5 + 88^0.4 + 148^0.6 + 5 FF attack(from the Golden Gun)+ 47 FF attack(from the Tower bonus) + 25(default bonus = 110 FF attack

Your FF Defence will be: 144^0.5 + 16^0.4 + 148^0.6 + 5 FF attack(from the Golden Gun)+ 40 FF attack(from the Tower bonus) + 10 (default bonus)=85 FF Defence

A skill not mentioned in the formula, but by most considered the most important and determining skill of all Health points aka hp. The more health you have the longer you can stay alive, the better you can protect others, and eventually you will also have more dodges.

I will use the numbers of the example later to explain and elaborate some other stuff.

Distance penalty, order of movement, resistance and damage multipliers

This is stuff i canmainly copy paste from other threads.

Distance
The closer your character is to the person they shoot at, the better the chances are to land a hit. Distance is calculated by fields, sectors don't matter. The distance has no effect on the damage amount.
numbers:
http://wiki.the-west.net/wiki/Fort_battles#Distance_2

to give a small example between the person you are shooting at is 5 squares, for the calculation of the chance if you hit or not a malus of -7 FF attack is applied. is the distance 10 squares the malus is -16 FF attack etc.

Order of movement and shooting
from the wiki:

Both moving and shooting occur by the following rules:

1 All defenders move before attackers.
2 Higher ranks* move before lower ranks.
3 Alliance members move before freelancers.

Rank order: Generals, Captains, Privates, Recruits, Reservists, Traitors

When two players have equal priority the player with the highest leadership moves first. Should the tie be unbroken then the player with the highest stamina, followed by dodging and finally player ID moves first.
Also keep in mind you always shoot first and then move, only exception on this is when you are swapping someone which moves before you should, you then first swap and then shoot(but if this confuses you its a minor detail which is not important)

Resistance

Resistance is basically a number that tells you how much damage you resist of someone

for instance you got 20 resistance, a person shoots at you and normally does 400 damage, but only hits you for 380 damage, due to that resistance. resistance is calculated like this:

Resistance = 300 * (Stamina OR Hiding) / MaxHP

as you well know by now stamina is used if your on the attacking side of a fight(reds) and hiding if your on the defensive(blue) side

Damage Formula

Damage formula is a multiplier to your weapon damage, increasing slightly your damage bit or with high leadership and low health your damage quite a bit. The formula is:

weaponDamage + (weaponDamage * leadership / maxHealth)

seems quite clear, usually most folks will have 2-7% damage multiplier ofcourse simply because hp is so important that even with 3-4k hp and 300 leadership you won't get a very high damage increasing multiplier.

In general the extra damage you do normally negates the normal resistance someone has, only if someone has a special resistance clothing set or build, or build focussed on extra damage it really will be noticable.

Hitting and Dodging again

after all the info back to the first formula:

A = FF Attack (the number next to the crossed axes at fort battle character stats) - malus for distance
D = FF Defence(the number next to the shield)

If A>D then the chance to hit is (A-D/2)/A.
Otherwise the chance to hit is A/2D.
we gonna use the numbers of the 2 examples given earlier

Subject 1 is the attacker on the ground, and for this example there is a distance of 7 between subject 1 and 2, which means the malus is -10 for both subject 1 and 2

Subject 1 had 55 FF attack 40 FF defence
Subject 2 had 110 FF attack and 85 FF defence

The chance for subject 1 to hit subject 2 is( we use the second formula(A/2D) since A < D):

A(of subject 1)=55-10= 45
D(of subject 2)=85

chance to hit= 45/ (2*85)=26.5% meaning subject 2 has a 73.5% chance to dodge

The chance for subject 2 to hit subject 1 is (we use the first formula((A-D/2)/A) since A>D):

A(of subject 2)=110-10=100
D(of subject 1)=40

chance to hit= (100-40/2)/100)= 80% means subject 2 will have a 80% chance to hit and subject 1 has a 20% chance to dodge.


I hope this made clear how hitting and dodging actually work, and what the precise effects are of FF attack and Defence, i hope this makes you more understanble of what skills to choose, and how much an increase of 5 attack and defence might actually matter for your skills.

I will post 1 addititional post in reply here, on how the new FF system changed the balance exactly since i see many different explanations most in the good direction, but i will try to show it with simple numbers with the above mentioned formula's

if you want me to post pics in here, or see any flaws just let me know (in case of pics supply em)and i edit it
 
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Zeta-Navy

Ok This is the discussion bit, to understand what i am writing here you need to understand the first post. I will try to explain the effects of the new FF system and why it causes the current imbalance.

The problem with the old FF system was that the only skill you basically needed was hp, hp wins battles, and hp's grew so big almost no fight could end in a total kill or be won at all, towers gave enough bonus for the skilles hp tanks to dodge enough anyway. The devs saw this and changed the FF system to make skills more important, and hp though still most important skill a bit less important. This caused hp to indeed lower to some extend, and total kill victories returned more and attackers win more, but due to a design flaw they win almost everything. I will try to explain here a bit of the effect of the changes, and why the withdrawal on beta of the change from stamina to fms is a horrible mistake.

Lets start with an example of the old vs new system with the formula's of dodging and hitting of the first post.

A = shooter's attack (the number next to the crossed axes at fort battle character stats) - malus for distance
D = target's defense (the number next to the shield)

If A>D then the chance to hit is (A-D/2)/A.
Otherwise the chance to hit is A/2D.
In the old systems all skills were multiplied with ^0.4 , in the new system it got changed for stamina and hiding to ^0.6 and leadership to ^0.4. although it seems not a big change, the effect is huge. the FF attack and Defence increases a lot, even with a not very skilled build, this also has as effect that attackers will hit defenders easier, since the bonus of towers relatively got less with the new system then the old system, i don't have to explain i hope that a bonus of +40 FF defence is a relatively bigger improvement to +40 ff defence then to +55 defence. Anyway just some numbers to clarify

Examples of old vs new system

I will use 2 examples 1 for the old 1 for the new system, the subjects got the same skills basically, subject 1 has 130 stamina, 56 aim and dodge and 88 leadership, subject 2 has 130 hiding, 56 aim and dodge and 88 leadership, and both got the GG set bonusses as well. So both will have the same skills in the old and new system

with the old formula subject 1 and 2 have 48 FF attack and 33 FF defence with the above mentioned skills, and in the new formula they got 63 FF attack and 48 FF defence. As you can note despite not even being heavily skilled the change is already very substantial, if you compare very skilled build in the old system with the same in the new system the difference is even bigger. Also HP tanks without skills even with bonusses of towers, have often a lower FF defence then the attackers FF attack meaning they dodge horribly, making their hp way less good then before

example 1 old system
Subject 1 is the attacker and Subject 2 is the defender and is on his level 4 class tower the distance between the subjects is 3, causing a penalty of -4 FF attack:

Subjects 1 FF attack = 48 and the FF defence =33
Subjects 2 FF attack = 95(47 bonus from tower+class bonus) and the FF defence = 73(40 bonus from tower+class bonus)

Since A < D for subject 1 we use the A/2D formula
(48-4)/(73*2)= 30% chance to hit for subject 1, means subject 2 has 70% chance to dodge

Since A > D for subject 2 we use the (A-D/2)/A (the A=95-4=91)
(91- (33/2))/91 = 82% chance to land a hit for subject 2 and only a 18% chance to dodge for subject 1

example 2 new system
Subject 1 is the attacker and Subject 2 is the defender and is on his level 4 class tower the distance between the subjects is 3, causing a penalty of -4 FF attack:

Subjects 1 FF attack = 63 and the FF defence =48
Subjects 2 FF attack = 110(47 bonus from tower+class bonus) and the FF defence = 88(40 bonus from tower+class bonus)

Since A < D for subject 1 we use the A/2D formula
(63-4)/(88*2)= 34% chance to hit for subject 1, means subject 2 has 66% chance to dodge

Since A > D for subject 2 we use the (A-D/2)/A (the A=110-4=106)
(106- (48/2))/106 = 77% chance to land a hit for subject 2 and only a 23% chance to dodge for subject 1

As these examples make very very very clear, is that the new formula, despite that skills are still equal etc makes that attackers got a better chance to hit and dodge those in defence, even those on towers. So far the goal seem to be reached, defenders hit and dodge a bit less good, and pure hp tanks became significantly worse and need to lower hp as well to maintain some use, means lower hp and shorter fights. So far a brilliant implemention of the devs, a simple change that basically did what they wanted to achieve.

The big flaw

If you see the numbers above you see the change isn't huge, by far not huge enough to explain why attackers are so much pounding the defence these days. well that is due to a simple design flaw which was quite unnoticed when skills barely mattered but now is very noticable. Strength used to give health, and stamina, but stamina was not to important 243 stamina gave +9 FF attack and defence and 56 stamina gave +5 FF attack and defence. after the change though 243 stamina gave like +27 FF attack and defence, and 56 stamina abt 11 FF attack and defence. as you can see those numbers are really different. So where in the past most already had invested much if not all ap in str, these days its the only wise thing to do. since it gives 2 really strong fortfighting skills,

in order of importance you can see it this way: hp ->ld->hiding&stamina->aim and dodge, the reason why ld is above hiding and stamina despite the ^0.5 is that it is used in both the attacking and defending side of a fortfight, used as determinant for moving and shooting and for damage multiplier. lets give those skills in order points meaning, hp=4, ld=3, sta\mob=2 and aim&dodge=1

Then check the attribute points you can see investing in str gives 7, in mobility gives 3, in dexterity gives 1 and in leadership 3 points. As you can see that simply is not evenly distributed. But since everyone has huge stamina attackers on the ground got really huge stats even pure hp tanks. Causing attacks to walse over the defences, and yes they do have invested in hiding. But as you could read above attacks already gotten stronger simply due to the higher figures and defences weaker. and not to mention though you ofcourse shoot at towers, generally a large part of the defence shoots at big distance at you, and from a wall or the ground, and on the ground they simply got less good stats, thus miss a lot much more then most attackers do these days when shooting at the towers.

The devs however were bright and saw this as well and on beta wanted to change the stamina skill to fms as fortfighting skill (ofc they would change all bonusses on clothing as well). the thing is with such a change, everyone has hiding atm, and no one has fms as fortfighter, thus suddenly defences were totally overpowered... not weird ofcourse since the free reskill they gave was and stamina sp reskill, where everyone gets stamina from their AP. the thing is, that change is really good.

It will cause people to redistribute their AP and what you will see if that most have about the same amt of hiding as fms, mainly from AP as well, but what you will also see is another general decrease of health, since being pure health really gives no skills anymore, you jsut become bullet meat. the thing is such a change needs a proper free str ap reskill to work, so people actually reskill, since yeah some can use nugs etc, but if only 50% has fms and 95% has much hiding defences are way more skilled and thus overpowered. But as i wrote earlier the new system already automatically makes attacks stronger then they were in the old system, but the stamina as strength skill is just to overpowerring attacks, so many attacks are walkovers it gets boring, you can play superbly as a team the attack as complete idiots and you often enough still lose, which simply is bad for the game.

I agree maybe the change that attacks gotten slightly better by the higher figures alone might not be enough for a balanced playing field, but a small tweak on towers bonusses like just a plain -3 FF attack an defence can already do wonders for a balanced FF world in combination with the change to FMS skill(those afraid for all powerfull duellers, they often lack the hp to get into most fights, and due to their low hp they always got to hide at big distance to be safe, meaning the distance penalty will largely compensate most of that big bonus, not to mention the lack of LD compensates that bit as well)

I hope these 2 posts make any sense
 
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jarograv

Well-Known Member
I like this idea, defenses seem like they will be quite overpowered, which some might argue they have earned through constructing a fort, however on active FFing worlds like Colorado most forts have been built by both sides and have been constantly changing hands with the recent buff to attackers. Reducing the tower bonus could even the playing field giving attackers a chance in the next version of TW.

p.s.- I also approve Zeta's way of bypassing the guidelines for posting :p
 

DeletedUser34315

Where did you get that?

A = FF Attack (the number next to the crossed axes at fort battle character stats) - malus for distance
D = FF Defence(the number next to the shield)

If A>D then the chance to hit is (A-D/2)/A.
Otherwise the chance to hit is A/2D.

I've never seen that before, it's an interesting formula.
 

DeletedUser20647

Where did you get that?

A = FF Attack (the number next to the crossed axes at fort battle character stats) - malus for distance
D = FF Defence(the number next to the shield)

If A>D then the chance to hit is (A-D/2)/A.
Otherwise the chance to hit is A/2D.

I've never seen that before, it's an interesting formula.
Old stuff: http://wiki.the-west.net/wiki/Duels#Exchange_of_fire

Assumed that it works for battles as well, which is likely.
 

Zeta-Navy

Old stuff: http://wiki.the-west.net/wiki/Duels#Exchange_of_fire

Assumed that it works for battles as well, which is likely.
that formula i posted, is from the beta forums and confirmed by diggo the head mod there: http://forum.beta.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=23627&postcount=97
so i am 99% sure its correct. i didn't really posted quite new stuff here, but its just an assembly of many lose parts from different post forums and stuff glued together to paint a total picture to make it hopefully more comprehensive

ps jaro what guidelines(i got no clue what i did wrong, if its a double post try fitting all that in 1 post the forum crashes then)
 
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jarograv

Well-Known Member
hehe I meant you choosing not to put it in the ideas & brainfarts, nonetheless its good info you compiled here :)
 

Zeta-Navy

hehe I meant you choosing not to put it in the ideas & brainfarts, nonetheless its good info you compiled here :)
meh it was a bit of everything, it is an elaboration of previous brainfarts, but also something for question and guides and for saloon discussion so figured saloon is the place to be
 

DeletedUser20647

that formula i posted, is from the beta forums and confirmed by diggo the head mod there: http://forum.beta.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=23627&postcount=97
so i am 99% sure its correct. i didn't really posted quite new stuff here, but its just an assembly of many lose parts from different post forums and stuff glued together to paint a total picture to make it hopefully more comprehensive

ps jaro what guidelines(i got no clue what i did wrong, if its a double post try fitting all that in 1 post the forum crashes then)
The formula you posted is exactly the same as what is explained in the link I posted. Distance not included, of course.

Was just answering GG though, nothing wrong with the thread.
 
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DeletedUser11791

Hello Zeta,

Thank you for the explanation of how my skills in battle work. I am not sure i have understood it all (but I will re-read untill i do).
Now I understand better why my extra HP has not been as effective as I thought it would, in general that is. If i understand your explanation, there is a better balance between hp/leadership and stamina/hiding to be found. And can you explain how damage inflicted is influenced by high HP numbers?
How to tweak my skill distribution is the next question. I am a premium advent and blocking is the skill i would like to improve upon.
(Are the devs still working on the battle formula's in new updates? I heard rumors that they are constantly changing the formula which could make own changes worthless.)
 
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Zeta-Navy

to be honest new formula should come soon enough i reckon, i am not fan of it from what i read, but it will make this thread outdated

the problem for you is quite easy i know you as fat premium advent in dakota, the problem is simply that dakota is a premium dueller invested world with also tons of pure leadership folks, which will still kill you in no time. since the class and the pure damage build is so overpowered it really hurts advents, on a world like dakota where literally 40% of the FF'ers are duellers you simply can't avoid getting critted a lot, thats why a pure hp build doesn;t gives you the lengthy time on a world as dakota as it might do on a W11-15
 

DeletedUser34315

Pure health shouldn't be so powerful. I like that duelers and premium, pure leadership soldiers can cut through HP very fast- and I'm a pure tank.
 

DeletedUser11791

So will it help me to move sp into leadership? Reduce max health?
 

Zeta-Navy

So will it help me to move sp into leadership? Reduce max health?
no, if i were you just keep premium character active stay full hp and once the new FF formula comes check with that what to do. Its been out for weeks\months on beta already and i guess it comes with the 2.08 update which is already on all public beta's
 

DeletedUser35968

Aiming:max90% 50 + Leadership0.3 + Aiming0.4 + Hiding0.5 - Distance0.6 + (AttackBonus / 2)max5% + (OwnSectorBonus / 2)max5% - (TargetSectorBonus / 2)max10%

Dodging:max40% 5 + Leadership0.3 + Dodging0.4 + Stamina0.5 + (DefendBonus / 2)max5%

Damage: WeaponRange + Trapping0.7

Resistance: ResistanceBonus + Trading0.7

Found this one on beta forum. What does Trapping is mean by? Setting the traps?
 

canufeelit

Well-Known Member
Quote:
A = FF Attack (the number next to the crossed axes at fort battle character stats) - malus for distance
D = FF Defence(the number next to the shield)

If A>D then the chance to hit is (A-D/2)/A.
Otherwise the chance to hit is A/2D.
i would suggest that before this formula is applied there is a random percentage raised or lowered to A AND D, to increase the chance window. my guess would be around 20% max
 
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