has affirmative action gone too far?

DeletedUser

My definition is pretty much the same as the wikipedia one tbh, "policies that take race, ethnicity, or gender into consideration in an attempt to promote equal opportunity" and mine "legislation put in place to reduce/remove discrimination of any sort"

Pure semantics here, but I think there is a big difference:
Most anti-discrimination legislation does not take race, ethnicity or gender into consideration. It usually simply states that descrimination on such grounds is illegal, without providing seperate rules for different groups.
:p
 

DeletedUser

As per Government Site

IMO that pretty much slots straight into the difinition does it not? Different name, same thing.
Nope, not the same thing.

This is in regards to an equal opportunities programme instituted by the city government of London, to provide training and services so that minorities and others receive equal 'opportunity.'


I would never call someone any of those words. My point was regarding an earlier post that we have gone from ****** to black to coloured to African American (etc.), I was simply trying to understand how African American is any less insulting then Black, and ascertaining why I can be called white yet cannot with no racist designs state that someone is black. Surely I should be afforded equal treatment?
Okay, whitey. There, you've been afforded equal treatment. How does it make you feel?

Seriously, what does it matter to you what one person, or group, prefers to to be called? If someone finds something offensive, then show some courtesy and don't call them by that which offends them.


Pretty much true, I agree with you on that the top class of society keeps us fighting as it is easier to lie and manipulate us when we cannot turn our combined attentions to them, that though is possibly a different debate ;)
I am quite sure that is not what Billy meant. You're converting racism/classism into an elitist conspiracy. Rather silly actually.
 

DeletedUser

Nope, not the same thing.

This is in regards to an equal opportunities programme instituted by the city government of London, to provide training and services so that minorities and others receive equal 'opportunity.'

Okay Mr pedantic, here is a nice listing of all EO laws in the UK

Okay, whitey. There, you've been afforded equal treatment. How does it make you feel?

Seriously, what does it matter to you what one person, or group, prefers to to be called? If someone finds something offensive, then show some courtesy and don't call them by that which offends them.

Billy himself states that he is Black, why therefore can I not say that he is? I am not being racist, he dislikes coloured, which is fair enough for obvious reasons, yet if I was to say he is Black I would more than likely be called racist. Please explain where I have called someone something offensive? Just to flip your own question back at you what does it matter to you if I prefer not to be called white but caucasion?

My point is that if Black is offensive how is white not offensive? Rather then coming out with a stupid answer (calling me whitey) why not actually address the topic at hand and explain why white is acceptable when black is not.

I am quite sure that is not what Billy meant. You're converting racism/classism into an elitist conspiracy. Rather silly actually.[/QUOTE]
 

DeletedUser

As per Government Site



IMO that pretty much slots straight into the difinition does it not? Different name, same thing.



Of course, yet that should be obvious from the advert. There should be no need to actually state that white people will not get the job. If the job description is to work in a refuge then any man is not going to apply, however what about Gays? Why would they not be able to work there? What about a physcologist(sp?) that has specialised in that area? Surely they are more then qualified for the job even with the fact they are male?



I would never call someone any of those words. My point was regarding an earlier post that we have gone from ****** to black to coloured to African American (etc.), I was simply trying to understand how African American is any less insulting then Black, and ascertaining why I can be called white yet cannot with no racist designs state that someone is black. Surely I should be afforded equal treatment?

As you say there are idiots in the UK yet generally people are accepting, which is a very positive thing and shows that society in general is moving on.



Pretty much true, I agree with you on that the top class of society keeps us fighting as it is easier to lie and manipulate us when we cannot turn our combined attentions to them, that though is possibly a different debate ;)

Wow. I will have to concede that you do not get the fact that positive discrimination DOES NOT equal affirmative action. But answer me this - why is it wrong for business organisations to fairly reflect proportionately those that exist in society? I do not understand why you would have a problem with that.

However, you are way off the mark when it comes to ring fenced posts. Why would a woman fleeing domestic violence be comfortable with a gay man as the refuge worker? Can you tell just by looking at a guy that he is gay? Not all gay men mince and wear leather chaps. Or is it simply another one of your stereotypes kicking in? Women will be more comfortable working with other women in that situation. The man's sexual orientation has got nothing to do with it. The same will go for black people who have been the victim of a racially motivated attack. A white male worker may engender fear amongst the victims.

WE have not gone from ****** to black. White's used the term "******" as a derogatory term to name Negroes. It was simply a *******isation of the word negroe, by those in the southern states. It wasn't that it was no longer socially acceptable to refer to black people as ******s. It was something that was fought for throughout the 20th century as part of the civil rights movement - undertaken by both blacks and whites. It's not that African American is less insulting than black. It's what people are more comfortable being referred to as. I don't like being called "coloured", I am black, although the pigmentation of my skin is more akin to a light brown. But my identity is black. The reason why you do not see it as an issue is because generally the colour of your skin per se is not an issue. Whereas I still get stared at (my own fault admittedly - I moved to Cornwall - not many black's down here). I have still been called a ******, and one I haven't heard for a long while - jungle bunny. On that occasion (my wife and children were present) I chinned the guy. His friends still apologised to me and my wife, they were as horrified as we were at his behaviour. I digress - but Furry, you brought up the African American issue.

I hate getting involved in these debates. I end up appearing as the aggrieved token black man, with an axe to grind. However, sometimes I get riled by peoples ignorance. That said, this forum generally has got some truly enlightened people posting on it. Many thanx to those - you know who you are.

Peace,

Billy
 

DeletedUser

Hellstromm, I agree that self policing does not seem particularly proactive but in my experience most larger companies do follow the guidelines pretty much as they are laid out here, if only to reduce liability. I imagine that, similarly, employers over there follow the laws... if only to reduce liability.

Despite laws, guidelines and best practice, culture shifts very slowly. Anecdotally, having worked in a large, and very old, engineering firm, the activity to support the development of the female staff as well as promote a female friendly work environment (for example) was was very apparent, but it was also quite evident that much of this was cosmetic and didn't reflect the real attitudes of senior management.

However, it was also very evident that the requirements of our Equal Opportunity laws was forcing corporate change. (For starters even in the 80s there, women were required to wear below-the-knee skirts and pantyhose!) With the internal complaint procedures in place (which they had to have) management was forced into a position where they had to take disciplinary measures against a director for ongoing sexual harassment. Not doing so would have clearly have left them wide open legally. Forcing employers to keep a paper trail does have some effect.

As for quotas, with our demographics, I can't see how they would work here. Some organisations set quotas of women for themselves, but in terms of race, depending on the location we either don't have the population to make it viable or we have too many to make it necessary.

Here in Melbourne, we have such a highly multicultural population that having a "white" business is all but impossible. Just checking the latest stats, (lazily from Wiki) 34% of Melbourne's population was born overseas. Add to that the huge numbers of 2nd and 3rd generation people from various ethnicities and the anglos are easily outnumbered.

But for more "proactive" measures, there are several grant systems and tax rebates available for multicultural employers, as well as particular ones for employing indigenous Australians. We also have a wide range of programs in place to support disadvantaged groups in education as well as in small business and gaining employment, which I believe constitutes "affirmative action".

We just don't have the workplace quotas.

EDITED TO ADD:
I hate getting involved in these debates. I end up appearing as the aggrieved token black man, with an axe to grind. However, sometimes I get riled by peoples ignorance.

Billy, you don't sound at all like an aggrieved black man to me, token or otherwise. If anything, it is useful to hear about how these issues are actually experienced and your opinions as to the benefit or harm should be given extra consideration because you have an additional perspective on them than my own experience can provide.

(And before anyone screams reverse discrimination at me, I said consideration, not agreement.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

Wow. I will have to concede that you do not get the fact that positive discrimination DOES NOT equal affirmative action. But answer me this - why is it wrong for business organisations to fairly reflect proportionately those that exist in society? I do not understand why you would have a problem with that.

I don't. However I have a problem with decisions being made based only on race/religion/sex which if you have a set quota you are forced to do. In an ideal world all job selection would be on merit alone. Be it a woman that is best qualified, a man, a muslim, a christian, a jew etc. etc.

However, you are way off the mark when it comes to ring fenced posts. Why would a woman fleeing domestic violence be comfortable with a gay man as the refuge worker? Can you tell just by looking at a guy that he is gay? Not all gay men mince and wear leather chaps. Or is it simply another one of your stereotypes kicking in? Women will be more comfortable working with other women in that situation. The man's sexual orientation has got nothing to do with it. The same will go for black people who have been the victim of a racially motivated attack. A white male worker may engender fear amongst the victims.

Oh look, you seem to have categorised me as a bigot, very nice. Please show me where I am being bigoted in anyway shape or form.

The use of a gay man was simply to show that not all men should be excluded.

WE have not gone from ****** to black. White's used the term "******" as a derogatory term to name Negroes. It was simply a *******isation of the word negroe, by those in the southern states. It wasn't that it was no longer socially acceptable to refer to black people as ******s. It was something that was fought for throughout the 20th century as part of the civil rights movement - undertaken by both blacks and whites. It's not that African American is less insulting than black. It's what people are more comfortable being referred to as. I don't like being called "coloured", I am black, although the pigmentation of my skin is more akin to a light brown. But my identity is black. The reason why you do not see it as an issue is because generally the colour of your skin per se is not an issue. Whereas I still get stared at (my own fault admittedly - I moved to Cornwall - not many black's down here). I have still been called a ******, and one I haven't heard for a long while - jungle bunny. On that occasion (my wife and children were present) I chinned the guy. His friends still apologised to me and my wife, they were as horrified as we were at his behaviour. I digress - but Furry, you brought up the African American issue.

Just quoting one of your fellow debaters from the same side as you, and fyi it wasn't me that brought it up:

We have gone from the N-word to colored to black to African American.

I hate getting involved in these debates. I end up appearing as the aggrieved token black man, with an axe to grind. However, sometimes I get riled by peoples ignorance. That said, this forum generally has got some truly enlightened people posting on it. Many thanx to those - you know who you are.

Peace,

Billy

The only part of your argument that I take exception to is this:

Or is it simply another one of your stereotypes kicking in?
 

DeletedUser

Furry, I am not going to get into a tit for tat post war (he says, having posted again), it will be the death of the thread (maybe it should die - views too entrenched). The reason why I question your "hug a minority" credentials, is the crack about it's okay if you are a gay man to work with women victims of domestic violence. You just don't get it - it's about whether women will feel comfortable working with a man. Not whether a gay man could do the job as he will be less likely to perpetrate domestic violence. Most men will not violently abuse their female partners. That is not the point.

Like you say;

".... I have a problem with decisions being made based only on race/religion/sex which if you have a set quota you are forced to do. In an ideal world all job selection would be on merit alone. Be it a woman that is best qualified, a man, a muslim, a christian, a jew etc. etc."

The whole point is that we do not live in an ideal world. People are often discriminated against in employment. Women, blacks, people with disabilities, often get passed over. Positive discrimination is NOT an ideal solution. It does help redress the balance however. Businesses should represent the communities they aim to serve - your ideal world scenario does not exist.

Bigotry and stereotypification are not the same. But hey, if the cap fits...

I won't say any more on this issue. I will be accused of having a chip on my shoulder next...
 

DeletedUser

Furry, I am not going to get into a tit for tat post war (he says, having posted again), it will be the death of the thread (maybe it should die - views too entrenched). The reason why I question your "hug a minority" credentials, is the crack about it's okay if you are a gay man to work with women victims of domestic violence. You just don't get it - it's about whether women will feel comfortable working with a man. Not whether a gay man could do the job as he will be less likely to perpetrate domestic violence. Most men will not violently abuse their female partners. That is not the point.

So what about the fact that a male physcologist may be used? That was one of my original points yet you dismiss that and focus on the gay man. A transvestite also.

Like you say;

".... I have a problem with decisions being made based only on race/religion/sex which if you have a set quota you are forced to do. In an ideal world all job selection would be on merit alone. Be it a woman that is best qualified, a man, a muslim, a christian, a jew etc. etc."

The whole point is that we do not live in an ideal world. People are often discriminated against in employment. Women, blacks, people with disabilities, often get passed over. Positive discrimination is NOT an ideal solution. It does help redress the balance however. Businesses should represent the communities they aim to serve - your ideal world scenario does not exist.

I am well aware of that, please do not attempt to twist my words to make me look like an idiot. If you were able to look at what I wrote without already having labelled me in you head the you would see that I am saying that in an ideal world, I never say this world is ideal.

If you look my response to Vi's question about what would be better then AA I state that I cannot come up with a better idea, but I feel that AA goes to far at times. There is no such thing as positive discrimination. The fact that various minorities were discriminated against doesn't give anyone the right to discriminate against others. The limit of AA should be to redress the balance inso much as it is unbalanced. Using AA to discriminate against anyone is simply taking us further away from that.

Bigotry and stereotypification are not the same. But hey, if the cap fits...
but the go hand in hand. Again you attempt to demean my opinions by calling my a bigot and accusing me of prejudice.

I won't say any more on this issue. I will be accused of having a chip on my shoulder next...

I have not said that, nor have I insulted you in anyway that I am aware of, if I have feel free to explain how and I will apologise if needed. Yet YOU continue to insult me. See how that looks?
 

DeletedUser

I won't say any more on this issue. I will be accused of having a chip on my shoulder next...

I know exactly what you mean, BillyClub.

I pretty much left this conversation when I was accused of being racist against Caucasians... It's just not worth it...

You give the impression of being someone that is actually racist against the caucasions. This statement is rubbish. Ofc not all caucasions are oppressed but some still are, some are oppressors however that is one of the most crazy statements I have ever seen.

Pretty funny considering that I am Caucasian myself...
 

DeletedUser

I know exactly what you mean, BillyClub.

I pretty much left this conversation when I was accused of being racist against Caucasians... It's just not worth it...



Pretty funny considering that I am Caucasian myself...

So you deny this post

Those that banned xmas decorations for fear of offending muslims were christians but that didn't stop them discriminating against their own faith did it?
 

DeletedUser

Can I just say, it seems to me like all of you 3 are misreading each other's statements and taking them to mean more than they do.

From my reading, until everyone got heated, no one had said anything personal or offensive or racist.

Even Adelei's "poor, oppressed white man" just came across as a critique of the argument rather than a personal attack to me. I say... chill. :)
 

DeletedUser

Even if you were a mod Giz, still nobody would respect your opinion, unless you started to show some sense and put some thought into your posts.
 

DeletedUser

Giz, you've been asked some pretty direct questions and used the excuse that you had to go to bed and that is why you dropped out of the discussion last night. Can you stop spamming and maybe start getting on topic and answering?
 
Top