Ethnic minorities

DeletedUser

And what about the victims of violence? Aren't they not to pitty for their injuries? They are not responsible for what their government do or at least they don't neccessarily support oppression of ethnic groups. Most Chinese people, for example, would never agree that the Uigur are being oppressed, and they really believe in what they say.
It just happens that they live in the same place, which the ethnic groups claim to be their own. Do they have to be injured because of the place they live in and the nationality or ethnicity they have? And you want to support violent people using aggression against civilians for political goals?
 
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DeletedUser

So, what you're basically saying is, the Uigur should remain oppressed?
 

DeletedUser

I say that they should seek other ways than using violence. Ghandi understood something that they don't. And they don't neccessarily have to form a new state in order to have their rights. You might not agree, but I think that such thing as creating an Uigur state won't happen.
 
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DeletedUser

And what other ways would those be? You do realize you're talking about the Chinese government, where the death penalty is imposed on people who cheat on their taxes, where they shot and killed 2,500+ "non-violent" mourners/protesters in Tiananmen Square, where they executed "non-violent" Tibetan monks for being Tibetan monks, etc, and so on.
 

DeletedUser

And would they do when the Uigur escalate their riots? They would come with huge armies and tanks with the pretext of fighting terorists. Is that what these ethnic groups want?
 

DeletedUser

If you don't stand up for your rights Parcific then you might as well lay down and be walked all over. There are things in this world worth dying for, a higher cause if you will, to ensure a better future for those that follow.
 

DeletedUser

If they die, they won't neccassarily leave something good for those who follow, maybe only hate, lasting for generations, blood, revenge, more blood and a long war.

Besides, you're stating the philosophy of suicidal bombers, these Oriental terrorist groups, these politically extreme Islam Fundamentalists. They too believe to leave something good to those who follow, but just not according to western values. Thus they die and taking with them many more innocent people. Are they then martyrs? Are they then heroes?
 
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DeletedUser

You really are a tree hugger aren't you. If someone was oppressing me I would fight back. This is the only life you get. I'd rather die for something than live for nothing. Especially if it will get my children one step closer to them having a better life without being oppressed.

So do you think the civil rights movement should have never happened. African Americans should still ride on the back of the bus and drink out of a different water fountain, be strung up at the whim of a racist and be denied proper education? Maybe women shouldn't have the vote. The American Revolution was a mistake obviously as well.

Please think before you post. Then think again. Maybe do some research. Your way of thinking is not living in reality and is more harmful than good.
 

DeletedUser

So do you think the civil rights movement should have never happened. African Americans should still ride on the back of the bus and drink out of a different water fountain, be strung up at the whim of a racist and be denied proper education? Maybe women shouldn't have the vote. The American Revolution was a mistake obviously as well.

Martin Luther King was one of the few politicians who fought for their rights with peace, not wars. His Speech "I have a Dream" has reached far more than guns, bombs, violence, wars can ever get among the American people. What would have happened, if the black Americans assembled somewhere in the city and then hit the next passer-by they see. They won't reach, what Martin Luther King reached by his speech, with violence.
If you think you're fighting for a "just cause", beware that these "just causes" don't permit you to use dreadful means. If you still use violence, then you yourself will become unjust.

And don't call me a "tree hugger", it takes more courage and wisdom than you think to see beyond these desperate but sometimes favoured means of humen, to convince people that violence is the worst idea.

Are we in a kind of "Pro-Violence, Pro-War, if the goals are good enough"-forum? We are speaking of political principles. If you say "I'm against war, but with this and that exceptions", then wars will come. And exactly in the way of the exceptions and gradually become the huge bloody battles we generally see in history. Didn't the American public believe that their sons were fighting for a just cause during the Vietnam War, and later admitted their mistake? One must learn from mistakes and not forget them.

Especially if it will get my children one step closer to them having a better life without being oppressed.

Do you like your children to see you die and become orphans? Do you like to see your children become ravaged by hatred and vengeance against those people who you killed and later killed you? Do you like to see your children burry the seeds of new violence, so their children will suffer from it?
For the sake of your children, I hope you don't.
 
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DeletedUser

Yep. If I was being oppressed and my children were being oppressed I would die in the hopes of giving them a better future. If my people were being starved, executed at random, tortured, denied basic human rights and treated worse than animals while the ruling class lived like royalty I would fight back. If you wouldn't fight back that makes you a coward or an idiot. To sit back and accept such behavior teaches your children they have no worth. Attitudes like yours helped Hitler get away with what he did; As long as it isn't happening to 'me' then it's best to just keep my head down and hope for the best. That attitude disgusts me.

Edit: On a side note I really can't wait til Divest pops back up on the board. :D
 
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DeletedUser

Your attitude support Islamic extremist who believe that the Western governments are oppressing their culture, social norms and so on. Thus, they allow themselve do horrible things like suicide bombing, hijacking planes and hitting them against buildings so numerous innocent people die and they can have political pressure on their enemies. They believe that these dreadful deeds are sacred sacrifices for their "fight for freedom".
This kind of attitude disguests me.

Besides, how can you know if these ethnic groups are treated like animals or not. They have little political rights and thus need to fight for more, but neccessarily in a peaceful way like the Civil Rights Movement. Aren't Han Chinese supposed to fight for political rights, democracy and human rights too, since their Communist government is so oppressing. So what can Uigurs gain by them injuring people sharing similar fates anything else than hatred? It'll only lead to a war which can't be won, because Asian people tend to do huge and unlimited "sacrifices" in wars, with a determination which is almost fanatical.

And a part from that, minority groups like Uigurs or Tibetans aren't slaves and are not forced to eat animal food and do animal's jobs. One day, you'll see Asian people, including these ethnic groups, live with western standard and also surf on the Internet, playing games like The West. You might get astonished, because you think they ought to be living in the huts of animals due to all these oppressions. And that's not true. Haven't you noticed the changes in Asian and also some of the other developing countries in the recent 10 years? When life get better, people will care more about politics and improve the bad situtations left behind by the old Communist structures from the soviets. Not only minority groups like Uigurs or Tibetan will fight for their rights, but also Han people wil start to realise that democracy is for their own good. If they have no faith in democracy, then according to cemocratic principles, they don't need to have it as their form of governence. But if they do, they will fight for it like other people did in the past, only without using violence, because they know they would loose any faith from the public by doing so. That would be an Asian verion of Civil Rights Movement? You think these movements were violent? No, they aren't. And did they reach their goal? Yes, they did, while other people, usind violence for political ideas, fail.
I know Asian people quite well, they won't like democracy to be "enforced" or "given as a present" by anyone, they want to fight for it themselves. Asian countries, with the exception of North Koera, are not like what we thought they were in the Cold War.

But by using violence, everything will turn for the worst, because people will loose reason and start to behave like savages and animals. Rejecting violence is not cowardice, but being civilized. In the past, wars contributed to development of mankind, though they demanded bloody sacrificed. But today, wars have become obsolete, because they do more wrong than good to everybody and might result in the destruction of mankind. A couple of atom bombs and we people can discuss about history in the afterworld.

You just fail to see, that "fights", especially political ones, don't have to be violent to be successful. On the controly, peaceful "fights" like that of Ghandi or Martin Luther King are more likely to succeed and leave more good to mankind.
 
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DeletedUser

You are confusing human rights with religious extremists. There is a difference from fighting back against an authority that enslaves you and religious extremists that use terrorist methods against innocent people. I don't see how you can equate executing people for cheating on their taxes to blowing up a building and killing 3000 people because they don't believe in your particular God.

When life get better, people will care about politics and improve the bad situtations left behind by the old Communist structures
How is life going to get better? By calmly accepting their fate and hoping things change for the better? Sometimes that just doesn't happen and things only get worse. People in the minority that are already being treated badly don't have any power in order to negotiate for better treatment. Sometimes their shoddy treatment isn't even known about outside of their own country due to news black outs and tight government control on the media. Without major uprisings their plight can be looked over entirely by other nations and peoples. Their story doesn't get out there and therefore no one in a position of power can negotiate on their behalf and condemn the oppressors.

MLK and Ghandi were great men. They believed in peace. What that got them was assassinated. That isn't their fault by any means. The world needs people like them. The world also needs people that will fight when peace does not work.

If you could would you go back in time and assassinate Hitler in 1933 to stop the Holocaust or would you sit and try to talk him out of it. How long would you talk to him and urge him to change his policies before realizing it was an utter failure. How many people would have to die before you would decide that enough was enough and talking was not the answer.
 

DeletedUser

Sometimes political and religious ideologies have great similarities and have similar effect on people. I don't mean fighting for one's right is wrong. But while they do so, people can do much horrible things. For example, the principles of the French Revolution are universally correct, but it still led to the reign of Terror, leading to despotism and mass execution while contracting the principles they fought for.
Political "fights" can be fought, as long as no violence is envolved. Gandi and Martin Luther King are good examples. The Germans unificated peacefully without any civil war, starting by doing the "Montagsdemonstrationen" (Monday Demonstrations) in Leipzig with candles in their hands. They were suppost to be crushed by the Stasi police as it happened in the past, but the police, realizing the word of the people and being overwhelmed by the peacefulness of the people, joined them. If they started using violence, they would end up beaten up by the police and history would be different, turning for the worse. After having being the victims of a Nazi-governence, the Germans have learnt something which other nations didn't. And that is the value of peace.
I hope more people will be as judicious as that.

So you think Western countries should take active part in order to accelerate political processes in others countries with so much foreign cultures and background. America did try to "bestow" democracy and human rights to countries like they did with the Germans many times. Once in Vietnam, later in Iraq and Afganistan. Wasn't the Iraq war supported in the first place because western people thought it would liberate people in Iraq from the oppression of Sudam Hussein? Now Iraq war is "won", or at least Saddam Hussein is hung. But Iraq has become one of the worst place on Earth, with people dying now and then like rain falling now and then.
And then, western people start to condemn the Iraq war, but would that change the situation in Iraq? Will regret revive the dead on both sides? Will condemnation of a war fought bring back peace? No, no use, too late.

And are you kidding? You couldn't be possibly comparing China/Chinese with the Nazis? Have you been in that country? Have you known the Chinese people? Do you know what their wishes are? Do you know their culture and history? Especially their history concerning their fate after the Cold War? I can't believe it that so much prejudice exist against a group of people.
 
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DeletedUser

The war in Iraq was supported initially because of fear mongering. Parts of our government lied to the us and other branches of the government in order to get support for the war. I never supported that war and know many who haven't. We were told they were behind 9/11 (which they weren't) and we were told they had WMD (which they didn't). It was only later after these lies started falling apart that emphasis was placed on the humanitarian effort of the war. Well excuse me, bombing for peace is like having sex for virginity. It just doesn't work that way. GWB and Cheney clearly had intent to invade Iraq from the get-go and 9/11 gave them the excuse to do it.

I really don't know much of what is going on in China. I'm talking in general terms here. You have made blanket statements that war is never an option. If you can make blanket statements I can speak in general terms as well. Since I do not know enough about the China situation to debate specifics with you about it I won't be addressing that situation. What I can do is ask you about a specific past event where history is well documented and seek your opinion on that. But you still haven't answered my question. You have deflected it. Answer the Hitler question. Would you go back and assassinate Hitler if you could. Would you not agree that the world may have been a better place if Hitler had died in say 1933, that the horrors he set in motion and promoted most likely would not have happened if he had been dead.
 
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DeletedUser

And if the media tells you now, that ethnic groups in China have the right over using violence due to the great oppression, stating many examples of their sufferance. Due you think people will believe it and support the violence just like before the Iraq war?

We had the Hitler discussion before and my answer was: Assassinating Hitler can be only justified, when there are no other means. Even right after the power seizing of Hitler, the German people had the choice to oppose the hitler regime. But later, they lost every chance to do that and thus the assassination was the only way left. That was desperate, but justified.

But I don't think you can imply that with these recent ethnic clashes, because these are two different things. Ethnic conflics are better solved without violence, which would only deepen them. You may say that the riots are only fights for rights. This is not entirely true, because hatred against the Han people is already created. You don't want to amplify it, do you?
 
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DeletedUser

I don't believe anything the media tells me, not at face value, and certainly not from just one source. It is one reason I won't debate the China issue with you. I simply don't know enough about it.

I think most people will believe whatever is spoonfed to them, especially if it is coming from sources they trust. The news media, especially here, does not recommend or state that people have the right to do anything. They report the news. In recent years the US media has been used to spread propagandist information from our own government. I'm sure that isn't new at all but I certainly don't base any opinions I have just on news reports. If they are fed bullcrap as news they report bullcrap as news.

But again, nice dodge on the question.
 
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DeletedUser

Thise thread is a farse.
I have skimmed through it from my last post, and don't really find it interresting.

A small anecdote on Tibet versus China:
Is Tibet better off as an independent nation?
We could discuss that in another thread, or not.
Either way, think about it.
 

DeletedUser

I don't believe anything the media tells me, not at face value, and certainly not from just one source. It is one reason I won't debate the China issue with you. I simply don't know enough about it.

I think most people will believe whatever is spoonfed to them, especially if it is coming from sources they trust. The news media, especially here, does not recommend or state that people have the right to do anything. They report the news. In recent years the US media has been used to spread propagandist information from our own government. I'm sure that isn't new at all but I certainly don't base any opinions I have just on news reports. If they are fed bullcrap as news they report bullcrap as news.

But again, nice dodge on the question.

I share your view on media, they are tools of propaganda. I don't believe them too, because they always have some political aim behind them, trying to convince the people to vote for the politicians and their ideas.
I read different sources too, bith Western and Asian. And they differ each other very much. But sometimes there are identical points, and these points might be the essence of the reports, namely the facts. Everything around the facts are decorations in order to make the facts in favour of the propaganda of the media.
Taking the recent riots as example. One of the commune points of the Western and Chinese media is, that more than hundred people have died and more people injured. While the Western media doesn't go deeper anymore, creating the impression that the dead might be Uigur protestors killed by the armed police, the Chinse media really emphasis on the number of the dead and injured and constantly repeat it to the Chinse people, stating that the Uigur protesters are savage and violent and have injured and killed that many people. So what's the truth, difficult to say, but we need to seek the truth! So I think, that there were casualties on both sides, that are the Uigur protesters, the Han civilians and the Chinse police force. Seeing the riot to be so violent, I can't really support it.

And I have travelled through China I lot and I have no prejudice against its people, because like very society, there are lots of bad guys, but far more good guy in it. And I have to confess, I don't like the Chinese governmental structure. The army is sworn "partly" to the Cummunist Party and "partly" to the people. That sucks, for an army is not supposed to be under the command of a political party. The power is concentrated in the hand of some powerful politicians, while the People's Representative's Congress, the only constitution of the state that resembles much one of a democratic state, has only the power to make suggestions, but no decisions, and are even "encouraged" by the government, to watch upon the officials. Imagine that a parlament need to be told, what they have to do! That's hillarious! Worse than the Paulskirche parlament, which was rated as parlament of "dreamers and sleepers". And there is no real voting system, because the Chinese people haven't thought of taking the political power yet, they only look upon the government to pass policies in favour of them.

But I still think that there are already starting points for changes and reforms. Only everything is inmature and need to be developped. When more people receive education and are above poverty, then they will also care for politics and political rights.

I have sympathy with the minority groups too, but I don't think they can reach anything with injuring people. That's only a good way to let out anger, but a bad way to win political goals. It's obvious, that the Chinese government is well prepared for riots and even foreign sanctions. The only weak point of them is the sentiments of their people, which, sometimes, can really put pressure on them. But right now, with ravaging minority groups, it has quite good control of the sentiments of their people and thus gain their support, even when it incarcerates so many people.
So I believe, creating faith between the minority groups and the majority Chinese and then putting pressure on the government has a higher chance of success than injuring civilians in order to put pressure on the Chinese government.

Besides, I don't like the idea of people from one ethnicity fighting against people from another ethnicity. That's a huge conflict, but there's nothing idealistic about that for me.


Ps.: I don't want to dogde the Hitler question and I have once the same discussion about that topic with another group. I disagree with assassinating Hitler in 1933, because the Germans could have got rid of Hitler and the Nazis by other ways more effectively at that time. the Nazis never had the majority of the German people, but there was just no organized opposition, because the Germans were too split up. In 1933 the best way to deafeat the Nazis was to assemble together, storm into the Nazi buildings and arrest all Nazi officials. However, the German majority didn't realize, that Hitler will do so much crime in the next ten years, even though everything what Hitler wanted were stated in "Mein Kampf". And the Germans wanted to have war, because they felt hummiliated by the defeat in the WWI. If Hitler has only been assassinated, the German people would still get blindfolded by the Nazi propaganda and Himmler, Goebbles or some person like that would have been the successor.
Around 1943 the situation was different. There was no other way to end the war, because Hitler wanted to fight it to the end. Any other attempt to stop the Nazi couldn't work anymore, because the German people had become too weak to turn against the Nazis or had become absorbed by the Nazis due to all these propaganda. Then, the assassination, the last resort, is justified, because it will end the war and prevent the death of millions of people.

I actually think that you are defelcting the main topic by asking the Hitler question. You have to differentiate the assassionation of a lunatic despot with a conflict between ethnic groups, created by prejudices, history, political and religious ideas and so on. With the assassination of Hitler, you have good prospect to end a war and same millions' life. But with a group of people injuring people from another ethnicity, that will sooner or later turn into war or terrorism/city-guerrilla-like warfare, which will claim lifes of thousands of people, and if it escalates, even life of millions.

So are you really about to say "Because the Germans are justified to kill Hitler, people from one ethnicity are also justified to kill people from another ethnicity to reach political goals"? If so, I'll not agree with you, because these are two totally different situations.

I have nothing against them "fighting" for their ideals, but I think the way they do it is wrong.


PPs.: So let's talk about general terms: I reiterate, that wars have done good to mankind's development in the past, while demanding a bloody sacrifice, but wars in the 21th century do more harm than good. That's because almost every big military nations have nukes now. The weapons of mass destruction needn't neccessarily be developed during peace time, because some weapons of mass destruction like biologic weapons can rapidly and cheaply manufactured. The atom bombs were produced during the WWII and not beforehand. You can not prevent destruction of mankind by preventing these weapons to be produced in peace time. You can only prevent it by preventing wars to break out in the first place.
If these weapons of mass destruction get on the loose, then say good by to Earth and mankind. All territories get contaminated and all people die, and there will be no children left to "life the better life after the war". And if there are historians in the afterworld, they would say that the war was triggered off by an ethnical conflict, which gradually escalated and become a huge international conlict due to the Snow Ball Effect. And eventually all tension bursts out in form of a world war, leading to the extermination of humans. But their discussion would be of no use. It is the duty of everyone to prevent anything like that.
 
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DeletedUser

Parcific, you flip-flopped so many times in this thread, I'm not even sure whether you even believe any of the rambling you've posted.
 
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