Countering the Resistant Spec Build

DeletedUser

This is spurning from this topic here:
http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?t=18519

If you've read, or happen to have encountered a high resistant spec'd fighter, the question I am posing to the community and experienced players is this:

How can you effectively beat this build WITHOUT being resistant spec'd?

Currently, from that thread-the main crutch of the argument seems to come from the fact that people are heavily making use of this spec'd build, and if you ask them, it's not all that great-but yet they use it, and use it quite effectively.

On the contrary, I am finding that at equal levels, I barely do more than 23-30 damage per hit. And vs higher levels, I do roughly 2-10 damage per hit. I have hit 1 particular player every round only to do 23 damage, so do the math.

They all claim that there is a cryptonite to this build, and that is the answer I am looking for. Essentially, all I have sumised is that to outdo the 2 combined resistant stats, I have to dump points into 1 stat (be it shooting or vigor) to outweigh their advantages in resists.

Right now, my plan is to respec with the shaman, and fight fire with fire-given that Hernando's sword is laid out to get. If only we could imagine how the movie Tombstone would have played out with people running around with Machete's and Conquistador swords...
 

DeletedUser

To counter the resistance build you have very few options:

1) Pump your vigor/shooting to as high as possible so that's it's more than double the player's toughness/reflex, if you want to get into the 100s damage range for each hit.

2) Pump your dodge and aim to the point where you can dodge every hit and hope to land at least 1, but also have enough vigor/shooting to hit for damage. If defending, hope that the resistance dueler misses every round and you'll win. Resistance duelers typically have very low aim compared to other duelers.

3) Go a resistance build yourself.

On average, there really are not that many resistance players compared to everyone who plays. Therefore, if you encounter the everyday resistance dueler, then you can just live with it because there aren't that many relatively speaking. If they continuously hit you, then I guess either have one of your town members go high shooting and retaliate whenever, or find a player with high shooting to help you.

Remember, most resistance builds are melee duelers. Therefore, they will put points into toughness more than reflex because reflex isn't used for any good job. You will also find less players with high vigor compared to players with high shooting since vigor isn't used for any good job. So range duelers with high shooting will always have a stronger chance of winning.

Trust me, since i'm a resistance dueler after all, that high shooting, high aim, some dodge is the only way to have a legitimate chance of beating a resistance dueler. The only duels I ever lose are to those players, range duelers who attack me in work gear, and sometimes i'll attack others and miss every round since my aim is so low and they will win.
 
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DeletedUser

well i have beaten many resistance duelers wid my beta acc. with high dodge and moderate aim...and moderate shooting......also be sure to pump up tactics/appearence.....

tats wat i believe can counter most effectively..though resistance duelers with high aim about 70+...are very hard to beat wid this build....for those wid high aim...better be a resistance one urself :)
 

DeletedUser

I think the best way to beat them is a high shooting/vigor dueler. For a firearms dueler in particular I generally prefer to have my base shooting to be at least twice my level, with good equipment as well this should put your shooting skill equal to the combined resistance total of any dueler of equal or lower character level, unless they are specifically pumping reflex. If you have good enough dodge then you should be able to land enough more hits than them to win a duel. The other big advantage here is the late game jobs a high shooting skill will open up.

My two soldiers, which I started at the same time, are a resistance melee and a high shooting firearm soldier, and while the resistance is currently much more effective at dueling, the firearm soldier will soon be stronger, with both much better jobs and more SP and AP from quests. My firearm soldier also still has much better gear to look forward to, while my resistance fighter has close to the best melee gear already.

I'm not going to deny the power of resistance builds at low to mid levels, my resistance soldier is currently 1 character level and 7 dueling levels higher than my ranged soldier, but soon, thanks to jobs and quests, the ranged soldier will be ahead on character level.
 

DeletedUser

I think resistant spec'd duelers are much more common on some of the later worlds-where this was a known deal from the start. I would say there will be much more, as melee duelers seem to be much more common than firearm.
 

DeletedUser

George Hurst said:
I think the best way to beat them is a high shooting/vigor dueler. For a firearms dueler in particular I generally prefer to have my base shooting to be at least twice my level, with good equipment as well this should put your shooting skill equal to the combined resistance total of any dueler of equal or lower character level, unless they are specifically pumping reflex. If you have good enough dodge then you should be able to land enough more hits than them to win a duel. The other big advantage here is the late game jobs a high shooting skill will open up.

My two soldiers, which I started at the same time, are a resistance melee and a high shooting firearm soldier, and while the resistance is currently much more effective at dueling, the firearm soldier will soon be stronger, with both much better jobs and more SP and AP from quests. My firearm soldier also still has much better gear to look forward to, while my resistance fighter has close to the best melee gear already.

I'm not going to deny the power of resistance builds at low to mid levels, my resistance soldier is currently 1 character level and 7 dueling levels higher than my ranged soldier, but soon, thanks to jobs and quests, the ranged soldier will be ahead on character level.
Click to expand...


I would argue that your last point is incorrect if you play a resistance character right I've been in and around the top 10 on w6 for months with this kind of build
 

DeletedUser

Azuk said:
I would argue that your last point is incorrect if you play a resistance character right I've been in and around the top 10 on w6 for months with this kind of build
Click to expand...
I have to admit I do not duel actively enough to have a chance of being anywhere near the top of the rankings with any pure dueling build, I tend to only duel a few times every couple of days, picking targets that will give me over 150 XP each.
 
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DeletedUser

Let's say, hypothetically, of course, that you have a firearm dueler with respectable dodge and some, but not a lot of points in toughness. Do those points in toughness do anything against a melee dueler who is going to have a lot of points in vigor? Given that they will be lower than the opponent's attacking values, do they lower his damage, or are they basically worthless? Also, I see some people with astronomically high shooting points. Is there a point of diminishing returns for having a ton of shooting points, or are they all needed to oppose the relex/toughness scores of other duelers out there?
 

DeletedUser

help please

OK so my soldier is lvl 15, I am putting all att in strength, I was planning on doing a melee soldier, but by accident have been putting skill points into shooting, i have 11 there and 10 on my aim. reflex is 5 and appearence is 6. What do I do? Where should I be putting my skill points for melee, or is it too late and should I just do a ranged soldier now?. thanks guys...
 

DeletedUser

Agent673 said:
OK so my soldier is lvl 15, I am putting all att in strength, I was planning on doing a melee soldier, but by accident have been putting skill points into shooting, i have 11 there and 10 on my aim. reflex is 5 and appearence is 6. What do I do? Where should I be putting my skill points for melee, or is it too late and should I just do a ranged soldier now?. thanks guys...
Click to expand...

Continue putting points in Strength, your points in Aim, just leave it as it is. The points you put in Shooting can be transferred/re-skilled later on once you complete the quest for the Shaman.
 

DeletedUser

You can't really beat them other than playing the same build. Though the build is really resistance melee.

It all hinges on the fact there's only two stats that don't have diminishing returns in duelling. Doing damage (vigor,shooting) and resisting damage (toughness,reflex). A melee build can get both with one attribute point (plus free health), a ranged duellist cannot giving an inevitable point advantage to melee builds. This is accentuated by there being a lot of high vigor gear and melee weapons having higher maximum damage.

On world 8 about 90% of the attackers I see are wielding sharp machete's.
 

DeletedUser

How to counter the resistance build:

IMO, the best counter is a pure dexterity based aim/shooting/dodging build. A soldier is probably the most suitable class.
Most/all of your attribute pints should be in dexterity, the rest in charisma. You should ignore all non-dueling skills, as well as toughness and reflex (and obviously vigor).


1. You should have high enough dodging to avoid all hits from your opponent (higher than the aim of your opponent).

2. High enough aim to hit your opponent most/all times (higher than 2* the dodging of your opponent).

3. High enough shooting to overcome your opponents resistance (higher than 1* the reflex + 0.5* the toughness of your opponent).

How do you know when you have achieved this? When you win every duel.

Also, it is enough to reach 1 and 2 to beat the resistance build. The closer you get to 3, the more damage you will do. With all three requirements, you will knock out your opponent on a regular basis.
 
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DeletedUser

D. Saint said:
How to counter the resistance build:

IMO, the best counter is a pure dexterity based aim/shooting/dodging build. A soldier is probably the most suitable class.
Most/all of your attribute pints should be in dexterity, the rest in charisma. You should ignore all non-dueling skills, as well as toughness and reflex (and obviously vigor).


1. You should have high enough dodging to avoid all hits from your opponent (higher than the aim of your opponent).

2. High enough aim to hit your opponent most/all times (higher than 2* the dodging of your opponent).

3. High enough shooting to overcome your opponents resistance (higher than 1* the reflex + 0.5* the toughness of your opponent).

How do you know when you have achieved this? When you win every duel.

Also, it is enough to reach 1 and 2 to beat the resistance build. The closer you get to 3, the more damage you will do. With all three requirements, you will knock out your opponent on a regular basis.
Click to expand...

Bingo! Thats basically the best way to do it.
 

DeletedUser

D. Saint said:
How to counter the resistance build:

1. You should have high enough dodging to avoid all hits from your opponent (higher than the aim of your opponent).
Click to expand...

That's not how it works. If you have twice the opponents aim in dodging (a massive investment of points, which will leave you with a really weak attack or defence) you're still going to get hit 33% of the time and those hits are going to really hurt against a strength based melee build.

You can win as a firearms duellist, you have to rely on getting lucky with dodges because you won't have the same degree of resistance, but the superior points economy and gear for melee duellists means they'll always have the advantage.
 

DeletedUser

Honestly, I posted how to beat a resistance dueler in Post #2. why do people just repeat what's already been said?
 
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