Blind Patriotism

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DeletedUser1121

War rarely solves things, and instead creates a multitude of newer problems that will invariably need to be resolved at a later time. So no, there is no good from blind patriotism, because following blindly the leadership, without caring to research causation, results in standing behind simple answers to complex problems. I.e., war.

Couldn't agree with you more. But we are doomed since leadership always needs simple answers. There isn't a politician that can fix this kind of issues for the simple reason they aren't trained how to. Diplomacy is a very very hard thing to do right. Politicians don't only need to think about the issue they are trying to solve. They also need to think about their own spot on the next elections. And then there (most of the times) is an opposition that just goes against a deciscion because of the simple fact the other party approve them
 

DeletedUser

Just because one has a bold, unwavering point of view does not make them immature.

No, but it does not make you mature. I can easily tell by your writing just what age you are. Please don't pretend to be something you're not.

A "Bold Unwavering Point of View" does not make you some sort of authority, nor a "great man." About the only thing it makes you is a stubborn demagogue.

Please argue with logic and not with insults. (That is the true measure of maturity.)

Well, arguing with logic, I wager, will not work with you, much like diplomacy won't work with Bin Laden. Since you yourself have said your point of view is unwavering, what's the point of rational discussion?



Obviously Bin Laden and others have a different point of view. I can even understand their point of view. (I can even understand your point of view.) However, you and they are wrong.

Ah yes, there's that "logic" creeping in, isn't it.


Like I said, we (and they) have every right to wage war in any corner of the world to defend ourselves.

Would you care to explain why the USA hasn't invaded Ireland or Spain in this war on terror?

However, you will be hard pressed to win the argument which says that 9/11 was an act of defense.

Anyone would be hard pressed to win any argument with you, as you are "unwavering."

You're not here to discuss, but simply to regurgitate rhetoric which was imprinted into you.

What's the point?
 

DeletedUser

I find the ethnocentric attitude of so many americans absolutely irritating the so often heard statement ' other countries are just jealous of the USA' is ridiculous really what is there to be jealous of in my opinion USA does not have a lot to be proud of if you look at their crime rates, their health care system, their education system the whole socio-economic structure is appalling, their gun obsession and the list goes on... Personally I believe the iraq war is america's shame and the only reason it occurred was because of the oil. As for the whole arguement about fanatics and it being right to attack due to he fanatics well yes iraq etc are religious fanatics but who are we to say that something that is a fundamental part of their culture and has been for many centuries is wrong when so many americans are fanatics about their patriotism a fanatic all the same.
 

DeletedUser

I can easily tell by your writing just what age you are.

If you judge by my writing, I am one of the oldest people on this forum. Yes, I am tooting my own horn there, but it is a fact. I could send you PMs that I have gotten from others complementing my writing ability. These PMs come from my antagonists. Even in college, I score high.

Well, arguing with logic, I wager, will not work with you, much like diplomacy won't work with Bin Laden. Since you yourself have said your point of view is unwavering, what's the point of rational discussion?

Let's follow that premise:

Logic doesn't work on Justin; therefore, insult him.
Logic doesn't work on Bin laden; therefore, _______.

You fill in the blank. I do believe you've criticized that approach.

My belief has not changed yet. Therefore, it is correctly described as unwavering. If you can argue effectively (with logic) that I am wrong; my belief will change.

However, I don't think you even know what you are trying to argue with me about. I've never defended the war in Iraq; in fact, I would criticise it IF that were the topic here. It is not.

Would you care to explain why the USA hasn't invaded Ireland or Spain in this war on terror?

No, I'm not the President. I'm not defending the "War on Terror."

Anyone would be hard pressed to win any argument with you, as you are "unwavering."

You are evading the question.

You're not here to discuss, but simply to regurgitate rhetoric which was imprinted into you.

I think I've made it clear that I do not follow the elitist Republicans.
 
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DeletedUser

If you judge by my writing, I am one of the oldest people on this forum. Yes, I am tooting my own horn there, but it is a fact. I could send you PMs that I have gotten from others complementing my writing ability. These PMs come from my antagonists. Even in college, I score high.
Thank you for making my point.


Let's follow that premise:

Logic doesn't work on Justin; therefore, insult him.
Logic doesn't work on Bin laden; therefore, _______.

You fill in the blank. I do believe you've criticized that approach.

Yes, I have. Can you figure out why?

My belief has not changed yet. Therefore, it is correct described as unwavering. If you can argue affectively (with logic) that I am wrong; my belief will change.
You will simply deem any argument that is contradictory to your beliefs as illogical.


I think I've made it clear that I do not follow the elitist Republicans.
In name, perhaps.
 

DeletedUser

I find it funny that some people complain about patriotism in the west, claiming it's racist etc & etc, yet at the same same endorse it in non-western countries.
I also find it funny that anti-patriots complain about people being dogmatic in their beliefs when they're dogmatic about their beliefs to bring western society into a cesspot of filth & libertine degradation.

No I don't support certain actions that's taken place in western countries, however when I constantly hear or read the anti-patriots dogmatically campaigning for libertarian anti-values, then I'm just that much more in favour of patriotism in the west.
 

DeletedUser

I find the ethnocentric attitude of so many americans absolutely irritating the so often heard statement ' other countries are just jealous of the USA' is ridiculous really what is there to be jealous of in my opinion USA does not have a lot to be proud of if you look at their crime rates, their health care system, their education system the whole socio-economic structure is appalling, their gun obsession and the list goes on... Personally I believe the iraq war is america's shame and the only reason it occurred was because of the oil. As for the whole arguement about fanatics and it being right to attack due to he fanatics well yes iraq etc are religious fanatics but who are we to say that something that is a fundamental part of their culture and has been for many centuries is wrong when so many americans are fanatics about their patriotism a fanatic all the same.

As an American I agree with most of what you have stated about our domestic issues. Although, your statements are fueled by the same ethnocentrism that you find irritating.

Keep in mind an American can't be judged by one belief or action. The US is the most diverse population on the planet which means we have a wide spectrum of views and beliefs.

I don't mind all the US hate when its mainly based on uninformed opinions from judgmental people or propaganda induced brain washing. Jealously describes some Im sure, but its arrogant/judgmental to assume. People that don't judge others by invisible borders/race/color are the one to be jealous of. They are better than the rest, but will never tell you.

Everyone thinks Iraq was over oil. It definitely was a factor but not the reason. Remember Iraq was sanctioned from selling any oil except for aid need by the citizens of Iraq. Their oil had little to no impact before the war and now is controlled by OPEC and banked by Iraq. No one ever mentions if the Middle East region's oil flow was disrupted, the world markets would CRASH overnight! The rich would be broke and the rest would suffer for decades. But that rarely gets mentioned, because many don't know or refuse to face the facts.

Popular opinion seems to forget Saddam killed 5,000 people with a chemical weapon. Sure its not Hitlers numbers, but how many have to die before its ok to remove a leader that practices genocide. He attacked Kuwait for OIL and left an environmental disaster when Iraq troops were driven out. He dodged UN inspects to the point they were rendered useless. The Iraqi citizens were silenced by Saddam army while he raped the country. His kids tortured Iraqi Olympians after a loss and countless citizens for no reason at all.

The world is a better place without Saddam and the Taliban. We owe it all to our brave coalition troops, whom some paid the ultimate price. I find it ridiculous that more free countries aren't helping these countries rebuild their infrastructures. Its draining our economy and killing our troops and civilians, but yet we're the bad guys.

Is it so bad to want all people to be free regardless how long they have been pawns to their government or lack of? Crimes against humanity or suppression aren't cultures, just dark periods of history. The US had slaves at one time, Im glad we changed the South's "culture". Women have been second class citizens since the beginning of time. Should we not fight for equality for EVERY woman or have we reached our quota?

In the last 100 years, the US has come to the aid of many European and Asian countries. Who bankrupted Russia in the cold war which freed many countries from the communist rule and possibly prevented WWIII? What would the world look like if the US didn't enter WWI, WWII or ignored military build up by the aggressive Russians and Chinese?

I guess if the "what have you done for me lately" world isn't in danger, its time to pass judgement on every level. Lucky for you it rolls off our backs and we'll be the first ones to help your country from disaster or military aggressions, but deep down you knew that. Lets hope you appreciate our sacrifices during those times at least.

Here's my judgement of the US. We don't make colonies out of our foes, we help them. We don't sneak attack anyone, our intentions are well published. We spend millions to lessen collateral damage when fighting in urban and rural areas while others bomb civilians as a tactic. We are installing a Patriot missile base to protect our allies from short ranged nuclear attacks at our expense. American volunteers are helping people world-wide in great numbers. We have taken great measures in controlling our carbon footprint.

We aren't perfect by any means, but more importantly, we have the freedom to improve.
 

DeletedUser

Everyone thinks Iraq was over oil. It definitely was a factor but not the reason. Remember Iraq was sanctioned from selling any oil except for aid need by the citizens of Iraq. Their oil had little to no impact before the war and now is controlled by OPEC and banked by Iraq. No one ever mentions if the Middle East region's oil flow was disrupted, the world markets would CRASH overnight! The rich would be broke and the rest would suffer for decades. But that rarely gets mentioned, because many don't know or refuse to face the facts.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-05-30-wolfowitz-iraq_x.htm

"For bureaucratic reasons we settled on one issue, weapons of mass destruction, because it was the one reason everyone could agree on."
 

DeletedUser1121

Here's my judgement of the US. We don't make colonies out of our foes, we help them. We don't sneak attack anyone, our intentions are well published. We spend millions to lessen collateral damage when fighting in urban and rural areas while others bomb civilians as a tactic. We are installing a Patriot missile base to protect our allies from short ranged nuclear attacks at our expense. American volunteers are helping people world-wide in great numbers. We have taken great measures in controlling our carbon footprint.

We aren't perfect by any means, but more importantly, we have the freedom to improve.

I do appreciate all the help the Americans give to people and countries who are surpressed by their enemies. If they wouldn't have, i would be speaking German now.

There is just one thing they need to work on imho. Everytime you defeat a dictator or regime, there tends to be a power vacuum. This vacuum needs to be filled by strong and determined local leaders. What you see is that after the have freed the country, they don't know what to do next. America needs to figure out the consequences of their actions. This would create more goodwill in the end.
 

DeletedUser

And the one that was completely made up.

I'm not arguing that point at all.

My point is that we have so many people arguing, post facto, that Iraq is a "humanitarian" mission, when it was precisely NOT that.
 

DeletedUser

If Iraq is a "humanitarian" mission then the west is a puzzle game!

Anyway blind patriotism is a bad thing but that was not the reason of Iraq war.
 

DeletedUser1121

Well, getting rid of a dictator who killed thousands with some of the dirtiest weapons imaginable could be rated as a humanitarian action.

And some of the quests are quite hard to solve :p
 

DeletedUser

who killed thousands with some of the dirtiest weapons imaginable
That was endorsed & supplied by the USA government.

The only thing that Saddam did wrong was forget his place as a puppet and he was no longer useful to the US.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

But this is just another sign of hypocrisy and it has nothing to do with patriotism. A true patriot would have opposed US actions. Opps one of them did, Timothy McViegh.
 

DeletedUser

Oh that is just crap. Timothy McViegh was not a true patriot, he was a homegrown terrorist. You don't blow up a building with American citizens (including children) in it to try and convey your dissatisfaction with your own government's actions. And, for that matter, did you ever bother to listen to the "reasons" he posed as to why he did what he did?

Australian Warlord, your posts have been on the verge of nonsensical rants, but this demonstration of hicktown logic has left you with no credibility whatsoever. Think before you hit that "Post" button, thanks.
 

DeletedUser

Timothy McViegh was a loyal American citizen who joined the army to serve his country. He became disillusioned with the government's actions and considered them anti-American. It was the basis of this belief that led him to the Vietnam Viets and ultimately the bombing as a message to the American government that their actions were improper.

Every single step of the way you have the message of dissatisfaction of the government, not the country. Hellstromm, you should learn the difference between the two terms.

There's a major difference between opposing a government & opposing a country. I have every single right to oppose my government as a Aussie citizen (as long as I don't do anything like McViegh) and how dare you tell me that me opposing certain actions of my government makes me un-Australian.

I'm a proud Aussie & I oppose my government. How dare you demand me be submissive to my government to classify myself as a Aussie.
 

DeletedUser1121

Calm down boy. count to ten or something.

Let's get a few things straight here. Patriotism is the love of one's homeland.
You are right when you say it isn't the love for a political movement in that land.
Now, is it patriotistic (is that a word?) when you blow up a building with people from the country you love in it, just to send a message to something that has nothing to do with patriotism? That isn't patriotistic (there, just typed it again) that is just stupid and evil.


Another note, can you tell me where exactly did Hellstromm said that you weren't a patriot? Where did he say you weren't a proud aussie and you need to be submissive to your goverment?
Australian Warlord, your posts have been on the verge of nonsensical rants, but this demonstration of hicktown logic has left you with no credibility whatsoever. Think before you hit that "Post" button, thanks.
The only thing you just did was proving that Hellstromm was right 100% about you.
 

DeletedUser

And Desi, here we see why you're such a failure on this topic, just like Hellstromm.
What I described was a simple pathway of thinking that can lead to violent patriotic & nationalist activities against the government. You're blinded by your own ignorances to understand this separation of government from country.

Of course if I went one step further then I would have said 'The demand to make us submissive to the government is a attack against me as the citizen and is a virtual declaration of war against all citizens.'

And there you have a nationalistic patriot engaging of violent activities against the government. But of course you live in China, where the government is the nation.
 
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