Oisenallen vs David Schofield

[DeletedUser]

No, a thought process is not a deed.

Titus 3:5
"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,"

 

[DeletedUser]

Then let me ask you this; Is meditation a deed?

 

[DeletedUser]

For someone who has such a merciful god, you appear to be rather merciless in your thoughts, Justin.

 

[DeletedUser]

And by ignoring my last post, I assume you cannot argue with it.

It's great having an Australian, an Irishman, and (I assume) an American on the same side, as between us, we will undoubtedly think of everything.

 

[DeletedUser]

Then let me ask you this; Is meditation a deed?

No meditation is not a deed or a work. It is pleasing to God, but it is not a deed or a work. Even science could tell you that!

For someone who has such a merciful god, you appear to be rather merciless in your thoughts, Justin.

I'm not sure I get your meaning there. If you're talking about my beliefs on capital punishment (actually, I should say, "the Bible's teachings on capital punishment") then your conception of God is flawed. God is perfectly merciful, gracious, and just.

And by ignoring my last post, I assume you cannot argue with it.

What are you talking about, my man? Did you read my post?! I clearly explained to you that you do not get to heaven by being a kind and charitable person. I then went through the "parable of the sheep and the goats" and explained it to you.

 

[DeletedUser]

That was the post before my last post. Read my most recent post before this one.

And you did not explain the story. I explained the story. All you said was: "The Goats and the Sheep is a part of the Bible that I don't believe (even though I believe everything the Bible says) and also it contradicts some other parts of the Bible (even though I have already said that the Bible doesn't contradict itself)."

Then you plucked the whole "anti-christ" thing out of nowhere and decided that that was the message of the story.

 

[DeletedUser]

Do you get into heaven by offering up your virgin daughters to be raped by an angry mob?

Genesis, Chapter 19, Verse 8.
8. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Or maybe you get into heaven by committing incest with those same daughters?

Genesis, Chapter 19, Verses 30-38.
30. And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. 31. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
32. Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
33. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
34. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
35. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
36. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.



If those are good works you have to do to get into heaven then no thank you. Sounds more like something you'd see on the national news where everyone would be disgusted by these actions.

 

[DeletedUser]

Justin, now you don't have to read my last post, as Denisero just summed it up for you.

Thank you, Denisero.

 

[DeletedUser]

No meditation is not a deed or a work. It is pleasing to God, but it is not a deed or a work. Even science could tell you that!

Why is mediation pleasing to god?
One can maditate upon anything, everything, and nothing. Commonly used in BUddhism to reach enlightenment.

 

[DeletedUser]

If we try to earn salvation we nullify God's grace. The definition of "grace" is "unmerited favor." In other words, you're getting something you don't deserve. If you try to deserve heaven by doing good works, you are rejecting the finished work of Christ. You are, in effect, telling God that what He did on the cross was not good enough -- that you've got to do more. God doesn't want your help in saving you! What you've done is the problem in the first place; to God, your good deeds are filthy garments

So to get into heaven, we should simply sit back and relax as slavery, torture and injustice inhabit God's "perfect world". That is either extremely lazy, or just plain evil. Any decent person will tell you that.

No god could endorse such evil. But then again, no god could oppose homosexuality either.

 

[DeletedUser]

Justin, you have repeatedly ignored the question of why you consider yourself to have the right to cast the first stone, when your bible tells you specifically that you do not have that right.

 

[DeletedUser]

First, you never did say if you agree that everyone who tells a lie, envies someone else or works on Sunday should be executed. As they say, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If an act isn't illegal, you can't be executed today no matter how immoral your actions are. If an action is immoral, your best bet is to refrain from doing it and assume that those who do it will answer for it at some point.

Please state for my personal edification where the idea of being executed originates. (And I am not saying that you are the one stating it, only that I am late into this thread and do not want to read back over 20+ pages.)

For clarification the Ten Commandments are incumbent upon the Children of Israel, not on the "Nations" which are Gentiles. Note that is says in Deuteronomy 5:1, "And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them..."

For Christianity Paul defines their laws in Acts 15:28; "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; that ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

The "laws" Paul proposes agree with what is commonly known as the Seven Laws of Noah which are the laws Judaism teaches are to be followed by non-Jews.

Concerning any executions, no executions may be issued except by a Sanhedrin. There is not an official Sanhedrin today so there are no executions issued according to Torah law.

Also, Sunday is not the Sabbath. Just because the Church of Rome chose to change it and Protestants accepted that change does not make it the Sabbath. Shabbos has always been and will always be from sundown Friday until sundown Saturday.

Next, I didn't say that you pick and choose which parts of the Bible you like or dislike; I said that you've taken it upon yourself to decide which sins are deserving of punishment, and which aren't. Christ was said to have died for "our" sins, not just yours. What makes you think that someone else's sins are more deserving of punishment than your own are?

You say that homosexuality is enough to make a person deserve death, but how is that (which is NOT mentioned in the 10 commandments) worse than lying or working on Sundays (which are both mentioned in the commandments)?

Finally (although I could add many more flaws in your argument), faith without good works isn't really any better than good works without faith, unless the faith starts shortly before death. If you are a true believer, you will want to do as the scripture says. If you are professing to be a believer but continue to knowingly commit the same sins, I think you're missing something somewhere along the way.

Again this is just to post my own personal stance and is not an indictment of you or anyone else in this thread.

The "Ten Commandments" are not the total summation of The Law. There are 613 laws which are to be followed by observant Jews (many of which are only pertinent to different types of people.)

In my studies and from what I have read posted elsewhere by Orthodox Rabbis (who certainly should know what their law means) "homosexuality" is a sticky wicket. Who is a homosexual? A person's sexuality is not always clear. It is not just their physical nature. There are possibly five different "sexes": a man born with a male body and a male soul; a man born with a male body and a female soul; a person whose sex is unclear (hermaphrodite); a female born with a female body and a male soul; and a female born with a female soul.

A person committing "homosexual" acts just for the sexual pleasure (such as someone in prison, etc) would be the most obvious violator of the commandment against a "man laying with a man". Someone acting on impulses with which they were born may or may not be actually engaging in homosexual acts. That is for the Almighty to decide. Any "executions" will not come from the Courts of Man but by the Hand of Heaven.

On a side note, there is no commandment against a woman laying with a woman".

Again, please understand this was note directed at you, per se, but just a general posting using your comments as a segue into the thread.

Be well, chaver.

~mo

 

[DeletedUser]

Thanks. I was just responding to Justin, who said that certain sinners deserved to die and should be executed. Judaism is one of many religions that I haven't really learned a lot about; it's always good to hear the beliefs and philosophies of others.

 

[DeletedUser]

That is for the Almighty to decide. Any "executions" will not come from the Courts of Man but by the Hand of Heaven.

Glad that you have segued into the thread, Moishe. I was actually going to raise the issue of Judaism and capital punishment with Justin but I didn't think it would be the most persuasive argument with him, even though the source for his opinions are often the books of the Torah.

I offered up some New Testament passages which say the same as what you have stated above, but perhaps your can offer more information based on the Torah/Old Testament books.

 

[DeletedUser]

Glad that you have segued into the thread, Moishe. I was actually going to raise the issue of Judaism and capital punishment with Justin but I didn't think it would be the most persuasive argument with him, even though the source for his opinions are often the books of the Torah.

I offered up some New Testament passages which say the same as what you have stated above, but perhaps your can offer more information based on the Torah/Old Testament books.

As I stated in another thread capital punishment is not a strong consideration. The only reasons it is mentioned in the law is to indicate the severity of the crime. A rebellious son is a very serious matter. And I do not mean that normal, growing teenage rebellion. I mean becoming an outlaw type.

The only way one could get the "death penalty" would be by a Sanhedrin. And a Sanhedrin that gave out the death penalty even once in seven years was considered cruel. Some even say seventy years.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thanks. I was just responding to Justin, who said that certain sinners deserved to die and should be executed. Judaism is one of many religions that I haven't really learned a lot about; it's always good to hear the beliefs and philosophies of others.

Who are we (humans) to say who deserves to die? Judaism is so opposed to murder that it is considered a crime to kill someone chasing you intent on taking your life if you can stop them without killing them. Even in war it is considered better to wound the enemy than kill them if possible.

A religion which stresses so much emphasis even on the merciful slaughter of food animals (many Jews are involved in ensuring that animals killed for food do not suffer) would certainly show mercy on fellow humans. It is not a wonder that so many are involved in social issues and even considered as -gasp- leftists.

 

[DeletedUser5046]

just one thing i learned from te 'favorite book of judas'


• do you believe that there really is a God?

• money is important at the 'judment' -when you die


*i should finish reading it. . .*

 

[DeletedUser]

To each their own adventure. I side with Joshua, "Chose you this day whom you shall serve but as for me and my house; we shall serve the Lord."

Be well, my friend!

~mo

 

[DeletedUser]

As I stated in another thread capital punishment is not a strong consideration. The only reasons it is mentioned in the law is to indicate the severity of the crime. A rebellious son is a very serious matter. And I do not mean that normal, growing teenage rebellion. I mean becoming an outlaw type.

The only way one could get the "death penalty" would be by a Sanhedrin. And a Sanhedrin that gave out the death penalty even once in seven years was considered cruel. Some even say seventy years.

When did Israel ever celebrate the year of Jubilee? The Lord commands that it be done, but it is never recorded in the Scriptures as having been celebrated. Whether or not Israel did what God commanded them is pointless. God's rules are to be obeyed whether or not people consider them cruel.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.

There are TWO sexes! Man and woman. That other stuff is a bunch of liberal crap. God formed you in the womb; He didn't mess it up.

I find it interesting that liberals can give such an argument and yet believe only in what they see (matter in motion). They deny that there is a God or angles or demons; yet they can realize that mankind has a soul (that somehow can get in the wrong type of body). Try to figure that out. They contradict themselves.

(I'm not calling you a liberal atheist, Moishe; I am just referring to the atheists who use that argument that you brought up.)

 

[DeletedUser]

I was actually going to raise the issue of Judaism and capital punishment with Justin but I didn't think it would be the most persuasive argument with him

What are you talking about? All that Moishe said was that the death penalty was rare. The Torah clearly says that certain people are to be put to death. Whether or not the ancient Jews did it or not is another matter.

Also, if people are being executed by the government for murdering, sodomizing, rebelling against the teachings of their parents, and kidnapping, criminals would be struck with fear. If they get caught, they're next on the electric chair. We would see a dramatic decrease in crime. And like Moishe said, it would not have to happen to much.

Also, I'm glad that somebody has finally joined this thread who understands what kind of person the rebellious son who aught to be executed is. However, his actions don't exactly have to be what we would describe as "criminal."

Duet. 21:18-21
"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.