Seven Days: Literally or Figuratively?

DeletedUser

Time time span for bible days are unclear; however if you take into account creatures were created first then there would be plenty of time for dinosaurs to have come and gone before man's creation. These paragraphs are written from God's perspective, and time is different for him.
*bzzzt* but thanks for playing. Genesis 1 firmly trumps your argument:

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. ~ Genesis 1:1-4

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. ~ Genesis 1:5

And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. ~ Genesis 1:8

And the evening and the morning were the third day. ~ Genesis 1:13

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. ~ Genesis 1:14-18

And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. ~ Genesis 1:19

And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. ~ Genesis 1:23

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. ~ Genesis 1:31​
Now, Genesis makes it abundantly clear that each day included a day and a night, and it is also made clear these are the same days and nights that define our present timeline. I.e., 24 hours. Peter's relativistic statement had nothing to do with how 7 days refers to anything other than 7 actual days (24 hrs or thereabouts) in the creation process. Any other interpretation is merely opportunistic redress to fit within the evidence as presented by scientific discovery on the very same issue that you keep on attacking --- science.

It is always interesting to see someone bash scientific discoveries and research, then turn around and adjust the language of their particular religion to accommodate the very science they demonize. But hey, can't we all just get along?

Obviously not...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

inb4 Which version of the bible is that? It doesn't sound like canon.
oh willy.......you amuse me to no end......:laugh:
 

DeletedUser

When it comes to Genesis, they all pretty much present it the same. That particular presentation was the King James Version. Here's examples of how they are written in other English Bibles:

Genesis 1:13
And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day (NIV)
So the evening and the morning were the third day. (NKJV)
And evening passed and morning came, marking the third day. (NLV)
And there was evening and there was morning, a third day. (ASV)
 

DeletedUser

Seven Days: Literally or Figuratively?

Seven days no sorry you both wrong. All those Hellstromm you are closers the Making of the earth if we go be the Bible is clear 6 days not 7.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Genesis 2:1 And the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

So as you can clear see Creating the earth and everything on it was 6 days. The 7th day is Gods day of Rested in witch he did not make anything.
 

DeletedUser16008

Yeesh talk about being a hypocrite, willy you keep spouting bible verse as if its something special then say this.
Time time span for bible days are unclear; however if you take into account creatures were created first then there would be plenty of time for dinosaurs to have come and gone before man's creation. These paragraphs are written from God's perspective, and time is different for him.

So now The Bible uses allegory to explain the creation of the earth. It is a story, so employs figures of speech and other literary devices to tell the story of how God created man e.g. Genesis "days" could also be read as "ages". ?

This makes no sense at all. Creationists are supposed to support arguments for creation instead of evolution. The stale old excuse that evolution has no evidence and that the earth is young… suggests that maybe the book of Genesis is just some sloppy poetry, don't take it literally, don't take it too seriously ? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

That's an argument against creationism not for it and also suggests the rest of the bible is just a story book and not to be taken literally ..... which of course it is.

Either the bible is A: a collection of stories and not to be taken too seriously or literally but a useful reminder and reference for humanity or B: its the word of god literally and therefore should have one version only with no room for interpretations or varying translation.

A = tolerant, intelligent, caring, useful, inspiring,socially productive, open minded individuals who have no problem getting along with people or life and can accept science into the mix as being part of a bigger wonder, indeed a lot of scientists believe in God

B = intolerant, brainwashed, self caring, preaching, socially repressive, close minded individuals who would rather live in a medieval fantasy world than grow and learn about the one around them..

There are so many holes in the bible its ridiculous to take it literally on any level. Believe in god by all means but to put blind faith in bits of paper and words as verbatim written by many mentally unstable, fame seeking, power grabbing oracles and self serving priests from a time where fantasy stories, magic and miracles were used to explain anything not understood is bordering on collective insanity.

They are but tales, rumours and stories passed on for hundreds of years before being committed to writings nothing more. No wonder there are so many different versions being peddled, its a great sell as nothing can be proved or disproved depending how words are twisted, thats convenient. The perfect scam, as they say theres one born every minute.

Back to the main topic ...6 or 7 days my ass
 

DeletedUser

Victor Kruger as you can see in my first post I say if we Go be the bible I was make a point that they ware wrong in say 7 days sine the ware quieting from the bible. That say I am more then welling to talk about other possibility as to how the world come about. Ever Faith believe the world come about in a different way here is be one other example:

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]Long, long ago, the world slept in the arms of the dark void. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]From this place of nothingness, Spirit drew together and created Our Lady of Infinite Love. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]The Lady danced among the heavens, Her feetbeating out the rythmn of all creation. Sparks of light catapaulted from Her hair, giving birth to the stars and planets. As She twirled, these heavenly bodies began to move with Her in the divine symphony of the universe. When Her dancing quickened She formed the seas and mountains of Earth. She chanted words of love and joy, and as these sounds fell to the Earth, the trees and flowers were born. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]From the pure, white light of Her breath came the colors of the universe, turning all things to vibrant beauty. from the bubbling laughter in Her throat sprang the sounds of the pristine running water of the streams, the gentle lapping vibrations of the lake, and the roaring screams of the oceans. Her tears of joy became the rains of our survival. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]When Her dancing slowed and She sought a companion to share the wonders of the world, Spirit created The Lord as Her lifemate and companion. Because She so loved the Earth, Spirit made Her companion half spirit, half animal, so that together the Lord and Lady could populate our planet. The Lord's power moves through her and She showers the Earth and all upon it with Her blessings. Together, the Lord and Lady gave birth to the birds, animals, fishes, and people of our world. To protect and guide the humans, the Lord and Lady created the angels and power spirits. These energies walk with us always, though we may not often see them. Their speech creates a tapestry of positve energy, from which we draw strength. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]To each bird the Lady gave a magic song, and to each animal the Lord bestowed the instinct to survive. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]The Lord is the master of the animal and plant kingdoms, and therefore wears the antlers of a stag crowning His great head. This aspect of half man, half animal shows His joy in both the human and animal creations of the Spirit. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]As the humans began to grow and prosper, the Lord and Lady saw a need for healers among them. And so they drew forth energy from the realm of angels, the realm of the power animals, and the realm of the humans to create the Witches. The Witches brought with them the wisdom of the Lord and Lady, the ability to heal, and the art of magic. The Lady taught the Witches how to cast a magic circle and talk to Spirit, and the Lord taught the Witches how to communicate with the energies of air, fire, earth, and water, and commune with the animal and plant kingdoms. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]At first, the humans accepted the Witches and treated them fairly; but because the Witches are different, humans began to fear the Wise Ones of the Lord and Lady, thus the Witches became the Hidden Children, conducting their rites of positive energy in secret lest they risk capture and death at the hands of uneducated humans. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]As the world grew darker with ignorance and hate of human creation, The Lady took the body of the Moon to represent the gentle light of her perfect peace, and the Lord took the vibrant rays of the Sun as his symbol of strength in perfect love. And once a month, when the Moon is full, the Witches celebrate and remember the blessings our Mother has bestowed upon us. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]We call forth Her energy to help us take care of ourselves, our families, our planet, and our friends. Four times a year the Witches celebrate the festivals of fire and honor the Lord and His love for us - these are called the cross-quarters. At the four quarters of the seasons, the Witches honor the cycle of life and the gifts of the Earth with festivals to both the Lord and Lady - signifying the balance they have brought us - the Equinoxes and the Solstices. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]The Lady has many names - Isis, Astarte, Bride, Diana, Aradia, Hecate - and the Lady walks within and beside each woman of every race. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]The Lord has many faces, from the strong Cernunnos to the delightful Pan. He guards and guides us and resides in each man of every race. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]When thunder roars in the heavens, and lightning cracks from the ground, the Lord and Lady dance the divine myth of creation so that we may remember them and know that we are never alone. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]When the Sun rises each morning, we bask in the joy of His love for us, and when the Moon moves through Her phases, we understand the cycle of birth, growth, death, and rebirth. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]When it is our time, the Witches enter the Summerland. From the Spirit that moves and flows through the Lord and Lady we continue to learn the mysticism of the Universe so that we may return, life after life, to serve our brothers and sisters. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]In each lifetime, Spirit guides us through learning experiences, preparing us along the way for our individual missions. Sometimes we are born among our own kind, and in other instances we must seek out our spiritual family. Many of us do not remeber our chosen path until we reach adulthood, but others know instinctively of their heritage from the time they form their own thoughts. [/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]We are the Witches, the representation of the growth of wisdom on our planet. We are the Hidden Children, back from the dead. We are the people, the power, the change, and we have incarnated in every race and every culture. We are the angels of Earth. [/FONT]







 

DeletedUser16008

Why do i get the feeling im in that weird & freaky area of you tube ? ... again :rolleyes:

Ice that sounds about as plausible as the bible thanks for the alternative.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser17143

I tried reading what Icesfire said but I felt a seizure coming on from the text. It really plays with your eyes.
 

DeletedUser

I tried reading what Icesfire said but I felt a seizure coming on from the text. It really plays with your eyes.
That font is called Courier. Back in the old days of steam engines and typewriters it was the font that everyone used and it really does mess up your eyes. That's why old folks all wear glasses.
If Hellstromm comes along just pretend we were talking about the topic.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

yidboi, sorry about that hopefully you be able to read this front better:
[FONT=Courier New, monospace][/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Long, long ago, the world slept in the arms of the dark void. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]From this place of nothingness, Spirit drew together and created Our Lady of Infinite Love. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Lady danced among the heavens, Her feetbeating out the rythmn of all creation. Sparks of light catapaulted from Her hair, giving birth to the stars and planets. As She twirled, these heavenly bodies began to move with Her in the divine symphony of the universe. When Her dancing quickened She formed the seas and mountains of Earth. She chanted words of love and joy, and as these sounds fell to the Earth, the trees and flowers were born. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]From the pure, white light of Her breath came the colors of the universe, turning all things to vibrant beauty. from the bubbling laughter in Her throat sprang the sounds of the pristine running water of the streams, the gentle lapping vibrations of the lake, and the roaring screams of the oceans. Her tears of joy became the rains of our survival. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When Her dancing slowed and She sought a companion to share the wonders of the world, Spirit created The Lord as Her lifemate and companion. Because She so loved the Earth, Spirit made Her companion half spirit, half animal, so that together the Lord and Lady could populate our planet. The Lord's power moves through her and She showers the Earth and all upon it with Her blessings. Together, the Lord and Lady gave birth to the birds, animals, fishes, and people of our world. To protect and guide the humans, the Lord and Lady created the angels and power spirits. These energies walk with us always, though we may not often see them. Their speech creates a tapestry of positve energy, from which we draw strength. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]To each bird the Lady gave a magic song, and to each animal the Lord bestowed the instinct to survive. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Lord is the master of the animal and plant kingdoms, and therefore wears the antlers of a stag crowning His great head. This aspect of half man, half animal shows His joy in both the human and animal creations of the Spirit. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As the humans began to grow and prosper, the Lord and Lady saw a need for healers among them. And so they drew forth energy from the realm of angels, the realm of the power animals, and the realm of the humans to create the Witches. The Witches brought with them the wisdom of the Lord and Lady, the ability to heal, and the art of magic. The Lady taught the Witches how to cast a magic circle and talk to Spirit, and the Lord taught the Witches how to communicate with the energies of air, fire, earth, and water, and commune with the animal and plant kingdoms. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]At first, the humans accepted the Witches and treated them fairly; but because the Witches are different, humans began to fear the Wise Ones of the Lord and Lady, thus the Witches became the Hidden Children, conducting their rites of positive energy in secret lest they risk capture and death at the hands of uneducated humans. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]As the world grew darker with ignorance and hate of human creation, The Lady took the body of the Moon to represent the gentle light of her perfect peace, and the Lord took the vibrant rays of the Sun as his symbol of strength in perfect love. And once a month, when the Moon is full, the Witches celebrate and remember the blessings our Mother has bestowed upon us. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We call forth Her energy to help us take care of ourselves, our families, our planet, and our friends. Four times a year the Witches celebrate the festivals of fire and honor the Lord and His love for us - these are called the cross-quarters. At the four quarters of the seasons, the Witches honor the cycle of life and the gifts of the Earth with festivals to both the Lord and Lady - signifying the balance they have brought us - the Equinoxes and the Solstices. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Lady has many names - Isis, Astarte, Bride, Diana, Aradia, Hecate - and the Lady walks within and beside each woman of every race. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Lord has many faces, from the strong Cernunnos to the delightful Pan. He guards and guides us and resides in each man of every race. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When thunder roars in the heavens, and lightning cracks from the ground, the Lord and Lady dance the divine myth of creation so that we may remember them and know that we are never alone. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When the Sun rises each morning, we bask in the joy of His love for us, and when the Moon moves through Her phases, we understand the cycle of birth, growth, death, and rebirth. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]When it is our time, the Witches enter the Summerland. From the Spirit that moves and flows through the Lord and Lady we continue to learn the mysticism of the Universe so that we may return, life after life, to serve our brothers and sisters. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In each lifetime, Spirit guides us through learning experiences, preparing us along the way for our individual missions. Sometimes we are born among our own kind, and in other instances we must seek out our spiritual family. Many of us do not remeber our chosen path until we reach adulthood, but others know instinctively of their heritage from the time they form their own thoughts. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We are the Witches, the representation of the growth of wisdom on our planet. We are the Hidden Children, back from the dead. We are the people, the power, the change, and we have incarnated in every race and every culture. We are the angels of Earth. [/FONT]




Victor Kruger, You don't buy the Faith alternatives Then you most like the Scientific alternative of something exploited and the make everything. well If there nothing before there was an explosion then there was nothing the could have exploited so the Alternative out too. So how do you thank our world came to be?
 

DeletedUser16008

Victor Kruger, You don't buy the Faith alternatives Then you most like the Scientific alternative of something exploited and the make everything. well If there nothing before there was an explosion then there was nothing the could have exploited so the Alternative out too. So how do you thank our world came to be?

I assume you mean the big bang encompassing the making of not just our planet ?

Assertion: Big Bang theory must be false, because something cannot come from nothing

Creationists who make this assertion assume (i) that Big Bang theory says that the universe came from nothing, and (ii) that is impossible for something to come from nothing. Both of these assumptions are problematic.

(i) Does Big Bang theory say the universe came from nothing ?

Big Bang theory uses Einstein's general theory of relativity (just a theory?) to trace the history of the universe back to a moment in time when the entire universe was concentrated in a point of infinite density, called a singularity. This account of the history of the universe is simplified, because it ignores quantum mechanics: at a point in time called the Planck time (now thought to have been 13.7 billion years ago), the universe was small enough to be subject to quantum mechanical effects. To know exactly what impact these effects would have had on the universe before Planck-time would require a theory of quantum gravity, which combines general relativity with quantum mechanics.
We can thus consider from two standpoints the question of whether Big Bang theory says the universe came from nothing: from the simplified standpoint that uses general relativity alone, and from the more complete, but murkier, standpoint that uses quantum gravity.

(ia) General relativity alone. One consequence of relativistic physics is that space and time (unified as spacetime) are themselves inseparable aspects of the universe. Therefore, if we go by general relativity alone, the origin of the universe was the origin of space and time themselves, so there cannot have been time prior to (or space outside of) the initial singularity; indeed, the very idea of "prior to" (or "outside of") the singularity makes no sense. This, in turn, shows that the vision of the universe somehow "coming from" a primordial nothingness, far from being a stipulation of Big Bang theory, is inconsistent with it.
For the universe to have "come from" nothing, it would at least have to be the case that at some point in the past, there was nothing, and then, at some later point in time, the universe suddenly existed. However, as we have seen, Big Bang theory without quantum mechanics entails that the universe existed at every moment of time there has ever been. One cannot in one breath talk about the universe existing at the first moment of time, and then, in the next breath, imply that there was a time before this first moment of time in which nothing existed.
Physicist Stephen Hawking sums all of this up when he points out that to talk about causation or creation implicitly assumes there was a time before the big bang singularity. We have known for twenty-five years that Einstein's general theory of relativity predicts that time must have had a beginning in a singularity fifteen billion years ago. (Hawking 1993:46)

(ib) Quantum gravity. What happens when one takes into account the importance of quantum mechanics in the early history of the universe? Right now, it is difficult to say, because there is no consensus within the scientific community on a theory of quantum gravity. However, according to physicist Lee Smolin, there are only three possible consequences any theory of quantum gravity could have:
A There is still a first moment in time, even when quantum mechanics is taken into consideration.
B The singularity is eliminated by some quantum mechanical effect. As a result, when we run the clock back, the universe does not reach a state of infinite density. Something else happens when the universe reaches some very high density that allows time to continue indefinitely into the past.
C Something new and strange and quantum mechanical happens to time, which is neither possibility A or B. For example, perhaps we reach a state where it is no longer appropriate to think that reality is composed of a series of moments that follow each other in a progression, one after another. In this case, there is perhaps no singularity, but it may also not make sense to ask what happened before the universe was extremely dense. (Reformatted from Smolin 1997:82)

Possibility A gives us the same situation as that described by standard (no quantum mechanics) Big Bang theory: a universe which exists at every instant of time, and hence cannot have "come from" nothing. Possibility B gives us a universe extending back infinitely in time, likewise eliminating the supposed problems raised by the universe "coming from" nothing. Possibility C (which is the kind of scenario proposed in the quantum cosmological speculations of Hawking 1988) once again gives us a universe that cannot "come from" nothing, as the very notion of time-ordering ceases to have meaning in the early universe.
Apparently, then, under every possible option for a Big Bang supplemented with quantum gravity, it would still be inaccurate to characterize the Big Bang as stipulating that the universe "came from nothing." On each possibility, there is no moment of time at which the universe did not exist.

(ii) Can something come from nothing ?

Even were we to assume, against physics, that there was some time prior to the origin of the universe when there was nothing except time, it is unclear what problem this would supposedly raise. There certainly is no logical contradiction in imagining there being nothing at one point in time and then there being something at a later point in time; it is not as though we are talking about "nothing" somehow metamorphosing into an existent something. Although the proposition that something cannot come from nothing (like the proposition that the Earth is flat) traditionally has been a matter of "common sense," it actually (like so much "common sense") reflects only popular prejudice and lacks rigorous logical support. It is not that we know something can come from nothing; it is just that the opposite cannot simply be taken for granted.

(iia) Is something coming from nothing ever observed? One argument against the idea of something coming from nothing is that we never observe such things happening. I suspect this kind of reasoning is always in the back of the mind of the average person, and explains why the idea is so counterintuitive. However, if we are referring to empty space when we talk about "nothing," then it actually is not true that we never observe things come from nothing: the quantum mechanical uncertainty principle allows for particle-antiparticle pairs to appear spontaneously out of empty space for very brief periods of time. These virtual particles (or quantum vacuum fluctuations) are ubiquitous, and create measurable effects such as the Casimir-Polder force and the Lamb shift. Some physicists have even invoked the same kind of mechanisms to generate theories of the origin of the entire universe from a background of empty spacetime (Tryon 1973).
One can, of course respond that virtual particles do not in fact appear out of literally nothing, because they occur in a background of spacetime in which quantum mechanics operates. While true, this response undermines the claim that we know from observation that nothing can come into existence out of nothing, since the closest thing to nothing that we are ever able to observe is empty spacetime.

One can also argue that perhaps, for all we know, virtual particles are created by God, who chooses, for unknown reasons, to create them in a lawlike fashion, and via means that are invisible to scientists, so that quantum vacuum fluctuations only appear to be spontaneous. This is possible. It is also possible that blunt force trauma never causes anyone to die—rather, what happens is that every time someone's brain suffers appropriate trauma, a hyperdimensional space spider chooses, for unknown reasons, to kill that person in a way that is invisible to scientists, so that things like hammers and bullets, and falls from cliffs, only appear to kill people. The price of taking seriously the possibility of mysterious, invisible causes at the level of a God responsible for virtual particles, is agnosticism about all cause and effect claims. It should be quite understandable that science eschews such things.

(iib) Does something coming from nothing require self-creation? Another argument against the idea of something coming from nothing is that the idea supposedly requires self-creation, which is impossible since nothing can have causal power before it exists. For instance, creationists often assert that to say that the universe came from nothing is to say that it created itself. But this is not so: the idea of the universe "coming from nothing" commits one only to the view that at one time there was nothing, and then at a later time, the universe existed. Talk of causation, much less self-causation, does not need to enter the picture at all.

(iii) Also worth noting

Vilenkin (1982), in an extension of Tryon (1973), has proposed that quantum mechanics alone could allow for the transition of a universe with no geometry (no points) to a universe with a geometry. For the moment, I do not know what to make of this proposal, because I do not understand how one is supposed to parse the idea of a "transition" without time; however, I mention it as something for others to be aware of.

References

Guth AH. 1997. The Inflationary Universe. Reading, MA: Helix Books.
Hawking SW. 1988. A Brief History of Time. Toronto: Bantam.
Hawking SW. 1993. Black Holes and Baby Universes. New York: Bantam.
Leslie J (ed). 1998. Modern Cosmology and Philosophy. Amherst, NY: Prometheus.
Smolin L. 1997. The Life of the Cosmos. Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Tryon EP. 1973. Is the universe a vacuum fluctuation? pp. 222-225 in Leslie 1998.
Vilenkin A. 1982. Creation of universes from nothing. Physics Letters 117B:25-28.
 

DeletedUser16008

The Multiverse Theory

There are different meanings for this term. The most popular idea, at least according to my knowledge, is the multiverse theory based on eternal inflation. This happens in an infinite background space-time in which tiny inflationary bubbles appear and grow leading to "island universes".

The main motivation for this idea is to explain fine tuning and coindicences (such as e.g. the cosmological constant problem) making use of the mediocrity principle applied to our universe with its laws of physics. The physics of multiverses based on inflation is not necessarily related to supersting theory and branes but does not exclude the possibility of a relation, especially with the idea of the string theory landscape.

The idea that other universes - as well as our own - lie within "bubbles" of space and time has received a boost.

Studies of the low-temperature glow left from the Big Bang suggest that several of these "bubble universes" may have left marks on our own.

This "multiverse" idea is popular in modern physics, but experimental tests have been hard to come by.

The preliminary work, to be published in Physical Review D, will be firmed up using data from the Planck telescope.

For now, the team has worked with seven years' worth of data from the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe, which measures in minute detail the cosmic microwave background (CMB) - the faint glow left from our Universe's formation.

'Mind-blowing'
The theory that invokes these bubble universes - a theory formally called "eternal inflation" - holds that such universes are popping into and out of existence and colliding all the time, with the space between them rapidly expanding - meaning that they are forever out of reach of one another.

But Hiranya Peiris, a cosmologist at University College London, and her colleagues have now worked out that when these universes are created adjacent to our own, they may leave a characteristic pattern in the CMB.

Dr Peiris' team first proposed these disc-shaped signatures in the CMB in a paper published in Physical Review Letters, and the new work fleshes out the idea, putting numbers to how many bubble universes we may be able to see now."I'd heard about this 'multiverse' for years and years, and I never took it seriously because I thought it's not testable," "I was just amazed by the idea that you can test for all these other universes out there - it's just mind-blowing."

Crucially, they used a computer program that looked for these discs automatically - reducing the chance that one of the collaborators would see the expected shape in the data when it was not in fact there.

The program found four particular areas that look likely to be signatures of the bubble universes - where the bubbles were 10 times more likely than the standard theory to explain the variations that the team saw in the CMB.

However, Dr Peiris stressed that the four regions were "not at a high statistical significance" - that more data would be needed to be assured of the existence of the "multiverse".

"Finding just four patches is not necessarily going to give you a good probability on the full sky," she explained to BBC News. "That's not statistically strong enough to either rule it out or to say that there is a collision."

Dr Peiris said that data from the Planck telescope - a next-generation space telescope designed to study the CMB with far greater sensitivity - would put the idea on a firmer footing, or refute it. However, the data from Planck cannot be discussed publicly before January 2013.

Data from the Planck telescope should resolve the question once and for all George Efstathiou, director of the Kavli Institute of Cosmology at the University of Cambridge, called the work "the first serious attempt to search for something like this... from the methodology point of view it's interesting".

He noted that the theories that invoked the multiverse were fraught with problems, because they dealt in so many intangible or immeasurable quantities.

"My own personal view is that it will need new physics to solve this problem," "But just because there are profound theory difficulties doesn't mean one shouldn't take the picture seriously."

Dr Peiris said that even if these bubble universes were confirmed, we could never learn anything further about them.

"It would be wonderful to be able to go outside our bubble, but it's not going to be possible," she explained."They're born close together - that's when the collision happens - and this same inflation happens between the bubbles. They're being hurled apart and space-time is expanding faster than light between them."

But Professor Efstathiou said the search was inherently worth it. He explained: "It would be a pretty amazing thing to show that we have actually made physical contact in another universe. It's a long shot, but it would be very profound for physics."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14372387

End of the day I have no idea nor do I NEED a definitive answer but everything certainly wasn't done in 6 days IMO
 

DeletedUser

Hi Icesfire, can you do us all a favor and change the text you present to that of Verdana, font size 2.

Also, in the future please post where you copied that from: (Teen Witch: Wicca for a New Generation By Silver RavenWolf).

Finally, how about staying on topic? Thanks
 

DeletedUser20688

Icesfire said:
The Lady has many names - Isis, Astarte, Bride, Diana, Aradia, Hecate - and the Lady walks within and beside each woman of every race.


I had a level 12 Cleric of Hecate once. He could cast clerical and m-u spells (in 1st edition mind you). That character was way ahead of his time.

EDIT: I apologize, here's my true gist.

I have a question/comment:

Victor Kruger said:
However, if we are referring to empty space when we talk about "nothing," then it actually is not true that we never observe things come from nothing: the quantum mechanical uncertainty principle allows for particle-antiparticle pairs to appear spontaneously out of empty space for very brief periods of time.

That highlighted word has always been the big "if" when I (unfortunately) delve into these types of discussions. That word is the main problem. Science is a wonderful thing. I have never challenged that. However, the human mind and the sensory organs that give it input are not so wonderful in the scope of truly perceiving the entirety that is existence. Of course, there is no question that the human mind has deduced many evident truths about the universe (Einstein, Bohr, etc.) but does that prove or necessarily make it possible that the Human mind ever will? Is science capable of providing humanity with the means of overcoming its own lack of perception? I'm not making any case for religion or faith either if anyone is expecting some kind of segue. I guess my point is that humanity has to constantly devise new ways to enhance its senses to try and perceive more of the universe but in the meantime scientists, theologians, and philosophers (armchair and professional alike) vie for the best position as "Top Know It All" and pontificate why the rest of us are so stupid.

By the way, I think this article is relevant to this thread: Universe from 'nothing' rattles faith
If I'm not mistaken VK, the subject of the article is actually alluding to cosmic phasing death spiders : "Applying the highbrow ideas of quantum theory, he describes an empty space pulsating with energy, and shaking with electromagnetic fields and what he calls "virtual particles" which bob in and out of existence. It is not always easy, he concedes, to get your head around his big ideas. It isn't helped that the timescales involved are simply immense and human lives in the scheme of things so brief." -- or that you are all just so stupid compared to the scientist.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

Well, my 2 kopeks worth.

I posted in another thread about a verse in the Bible stating;

2 Peter 3:8
Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

Peter was speaking about the end of days here (when will it come), but this verse can still be applied to any mention of time & God. So using that verse to explain the original event of creation makes it easy to say that the Seven Days of Creation likely wasn't a literal seven days, but more likely a metaphor for millions of years. Since science has demonstrated quite well that the Earth is millions of years old the creation event had to have been millions of years in the making though to God is was the blink of an eye in time.

Bear in mind though that there is another verse that says NOTHING is impossible for God.

The Bible is replete with metaphors as well (Jesus' parables among them) so one should read with an open heart as well as a discerning mind. So as a Christian, I'm not about to wear out my keyboard preaching that the Earth is only 6000 years young. 2000 from Creation to Flood. 2000 from flood to Christ. 2012 from Crucifixion to Present day. Faith is one thing, but blind faith in the face of solid evidence is just silly.
 

DeletedUser

A day is the length of time it takes the earth to spin on its axis relative to the rest of the universe. You can't have a day before you have a spinning earth.
Biblical apologists deal with this by making God's 'day' of indefinite length ("for God, the blink of an eye is a thousand years....." yadda yadda yadda).
But an elastic unit is not unit at all. It's like me saying "the universe is 14.256 polocots old", and when you ask "how long is a polocot?", I say "depends.....". Not very helpful.
Knowing how the universe began would not make people any nicer or happier, which is the purpose of faith. The cheap science got tacked into the mix and has been a pointless distraction ever since.
 

DeletedUser

A day is the length of time it takes the earth to spin on its axis

Unless we're talking about metaphorical day. If you recall, the first words in Genesis say that in the beginning there was nothing (no Earth spinning yet, no sun, nothing) only God existed then for Whom a day is as a thousand (or million or billion, etc.) years. Further more, on the first Day God said "let there be LIGHT" not a spinning earth.

From the Amplified Bible;

Genesis 1

1IN THE beginning God (prepared, formed, fashioned, and) created the heavens and the earth.
2The earth was without form and an empty waste, and darkness was upon the face of the very great deep. The Spirit of God was moving (hovering, brooding) over the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light; and there was light.

4And God saw that the light was good (suitable, pleasant) and He approved it; and God separated the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6And God said, Let there be a firmament [the expanse of the sky] in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters [below] from the waters [above].

7And God made the firmament [the expanse] and separated the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse. And it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heavens. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be collected into one place [of standing], and let the dry land appear. And it was so.

10God called the dry land Earth, and the accumulated waters He called Seas. And God saw that this was good (fitting, admirable) and He approved it.

11And God said, Let the earth put forth [tender] vegetation: plants yielding seed and fruit trees yielding fruit whose seed is in itself, each according to its kind, upon the earth. And it was so.

12The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed according to their own kinds and trees bearing fruit in which was their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good (suitable, admirable) and He approved it.

13And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be signs and tokens [of God's provident care], and [to mark] seasons, days, and years,

15And let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light upon the earth. And it was so.

16And God made the two great lights--the greater light (the sun) to rule the day and the lesser light (the moon) to rule the night. He also made the stars.

17And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth,

18To rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good (fitting, pleasant) and He approved it.

19And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly and swarm with living creatures, and let birds fly over the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.

21God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, which the waters brought forth abundantly, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good (suitable, admirable) and He approved it.

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let the fowl multiply in the earth.

23And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creeping things, and [wild] beasts of the earth according to their kinds. And it was so.

25And God made the [wild] beasts of the earth according to their kinds, and domestic animals according to their kinds, and everything that creeps upon the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good (fitting, pleasant) and He approved it.

26God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness, and let them have complete authority over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the [tame] beasts, and over all of the earth, and over everything that creeps upon the earth.

27So God created man in His own image, in the image and likeness of God He created him; male and female He created them.

28And God blessed them and said to them, Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it [using all its vast resources in the service of God and man]; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and over every living creature that moves upon the earth.

29And God said, See, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the land and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food.

30And to all the animals on the earth and to every bird of the air and to everything that creeps on the ground--to everything in which there is the breath of life--I have given every green plant for food. And it was so.

31And God saw everything that He had made, and behold, it was very good (suitable, pleasant) and He approved it completely. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

A day is the length of time it takes the earth to spin on its axis relative to the rest of the universe. You can't have a day before you have a spinning earth.
Biblical apologists deal with this by making God's 'day' of indefinite length ("for God, the blink of an eye is a thousand years....." yadda yadda yadda).
But an elastic unit is not unit at all. It's like me saying "the universe is 14.256 polocots old", and when you ask "how long is a polocot?", I say "depends.....". Not very helpful.
Knowing how the universe began would not make people any nicer or happier, which is the purpose of faith. The cheap science got tacked into the mix and has been a pointless distraction ever since.
No yadda yadda about it, the word used was not the English word day, rather it was translated from a Hebrew word that describes a period of time that could be a literal day or just a period of undefined time. So to say the earth was created in 6 separate phases is the gist of project management. Project are usually separated into phases that are defined by mile stones. This is what these scriptures describe.

The order of the things created are correct by modern scientific knowledge, and that is strong evidence to the validity of the bible. Just by the phases alone the statistical probability is 6^6 against, that's more than 46k to one probability, not including individual events.

Just because you don't see a point does not make it pointless.

As far as making people nicer, what is the alternative? Is it better to say we are all animals and survival of the fittest is the only law that matters? What sort of life does that lead to?
 

DeletedUser

In Genesis 1, God creates animals and afterwards, man.
In Genesis 2, God creates man first and then the animals.

Wriggle away, my friend.:D
 
Top