That time of year again.

[DeletedUser]

Christmas. I just... lets leave that for later.

Anyway, here's a thought I ave: As Christmas are a CHRISTIAN holiday, all atheists and non-Christians who celebrate it are mere hypocrites.

I know some may not agree, so what's you take on this?

 

[DeletedUser22575]

Christmas. I just... lets leave that for later.

Anyway, here's a thought I ave: As Christmas are a CHRISTIAN holiday, all atheists and non-Christians who celebrate it are mere hypocrites.

I know some may not agree, so what's you take on this?

What we now celebrate as Christmas was originally a "pagan" holiday that was adapted and converted to Christian use for religious purposes more than likely to make conversion easier.

So the question is..who was really the hypocrites?

 

[nashy19]

Christians don't have much to do with Christmas.

Gifts, Santa, mistletoe, Christmas trees... there's a huge list of things.
and if you honour those traditions you should think you're hypocritical yourself.

"As Christmas are a CHRISTIAN holiday" satire gone wrong?

 

[DeletedUser]

and if you honour those traditions you should think you're hypocritical yourself.

I hate Christmas. I hate everything there is to hate about it.

Now as to the point of the origins of Christmas, it is a mi of pagan and christian traditions.
So maybe there should be 2 set of Christmas: one with santa and all the crap for atheists and one for christians, free o all those pagan traditions.

 

[nashy19]

I hate Christmas. I hate everything there is to hate about it.

Now as to the point of the origins of Christmas, it is a mi of pagan and christian traditions.
So maybe there should be 2 set of Christmas: one with santa and all the crap for atheists and one for christians, free o all those pagan traditions.

Christmas is different in different countries, sometimes very different. Here in the UK we do mainly lights, presents, family/friend (all that warm stuff), Christmas trees... ok we do way too much to list. My point is the only Christian stuff I see is the rare Jesus decoration in somebodies garden, I don't go to church and despite my nan being a Christian (and hosting) there's no prayer or Christian talk at all. In your country it could be a completely different experience.

Also Pagan traditions have nothing to do with Atheism, they're just traditions that we like to have.

If there were two Christmases I think the Christian one would be extremely unpopular in my country.

 

[DeletedUser]

Christmas origins are a mishmash of various winter celebrations, inclusive of Scandanavian Yule, Roman's Saturnalia, etc. Btw, calling things "pagan" because they aren't Christian is disparaging and demonstrates, once again, many Christians think they are superior.

Anyway, there's nothing about Christmas that is Christian. It was falsely associated with the birth of Christ, for which there is no stated birth date/time, as yet another forum of proselytism. Christianity has a long history of converting non-Christian celebrations into Christian ones (such as in the cases of Easter and Halloween).

So really, it's an amalgamation of celebrations, hijacked by Christians, and then exploited by merchants. I abhor the consumerism of Christmas, but otherwise I think it's a fun event that makes a lot of people happy. I suppose the biggest negatives are increased alcohol intake (resulting in an increase in deaths), and affirmation of loneliness (resulting in yet more deaths).

 

[DeletedUser]

Then I think we should take all the christian stuff out of Christmas. Free religion after all.

 

[DeletedUser]

Sure, go right ahead. Good luck with that.

 

[DeletedUser]

Then I think we should take all the christian stuff out of Christmas. Free religion after all.

It'd be called Mas then. Christmas litteraly means Christ's Mass (sort of self explanitory...).

If you look back at history, you will find that the romans celebrated on the 25th in honor of one of their Gods (other traditions span much farther back, but I will start here). The day was full of drunken parties and celebrations for this pagan God. If I recall, this was called Saturnalia. Christians were horrified of course, and wanted to keep the 25th a solemn day of fasting in honor of Christ. So to compete with this, the Christians decided to turn their celebration as festive as Saturnalia, with lights and parades and the such to attract followers.

Now, what I find interesting is that Jesus was probably not born in December at all. If you look at the bible, you will find this verse: "abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flocks by night" (Luke 2:8). This would be impossible in December, where the herders would very rarely take their livestock out durring the night as it would be far too cold. I would guess that the Christians back then declared the celebration of Christ's birth in December to counteract the wild and paganous celebration of Saturnalia.

To Nashy, in the U.S., early settlers were actually prohibited to celebrate Christmas using floats and trees and such like today, especially around New England. They wanted to observe it as a solemn holiday honoring Jesus. I find it ironic that today many states are moving to a position to ban religion icons entirely during Christmas (especially around New England).

Now I do think that Christmas was very much designed by pagans, but the Christians won in the end with that. Does anyone celebrate Saturnia nowadays? No. Is Christmas very similar in celebrations compared to Saturnia? Yes. But one thing is changed now thanks to Christians. What the Christians did was turn what was basically a holiday of wild drunken orgies into a celebration of the Christ, the king of peace. Now we have a peaceful holiday, one to give presents out and spend time with our families and friends.

And on the topic of only having taking Christ out of Christmas for free religon, I'm going to guess that you are kidding. If you aren't a Christian, then simply have fun with your eggnog, and pretty christmas lights, and all of that. If you are a Christian, then do all of that and also go to Church, and set up a nativity scene if you really want to. Both sides are happy that way, so what's really the issue with taking out everything Christian about Christmas? What I find funny is that people want to change Christmas into "Mas", or better yet Saturnia. People want to ban nativity scenes, take away Christ from the very holiday celebrating his birth and baptism. People only want eggnog, Christmas music, and candy canes.

If you guys want Saturnia back then have it. But you're going to have to rename the holiday.

 

[DeletedUser]

It was falsely associated with the birth of Christ, for which there is no stated birth date/time,

now don't get me wrong, (because i am atheist ) but the bible pretty much points towards jesus being born (even though he was never born) in spring, for instance, shepards having their flocks out, which they only do in spring, and their are several other references. this suggests that the christian christmas was originally in the spring, but when christianity begun to colonize many pagan countries, their was already a pagan winter celebration on 25 december, and the christians, realizing that if they abolished the winter celebration and replaced it with a spring celebration they would be unpopular, so they simply moved christmas onto 25 december.

merry christmas everyone.

 

[DeletedUser]

Over here we still call it "Jul".
When the vikings celebrated Jul, or Yule as Hellstrom wrote it, they had a feast for several days. The blöth to Jul was done by drinking special seasonal mead and eating pork.

That tradition still stands.
Jul is a celebration. The highlight of Jul is the jul-dinner.
We drink special christmas beer, brewed for the very occasion.
Many still brew their own just for this one time of year.
We eat pork ribs, sausage, and what not. The customs vary over the country, but in eastern part, where I'm from, we eat our pork.

We have the Juletre, or christmasthree imported as a custom from Germany I believe.

For me Jul has never been about religion nor will it ever be.

It's about tradition, celebration, and family.
Giving us something to look forward to on this the darkest time of the year.

 

[DeletedUser]

exactly. any winter celebration has nothing to do with religion, but is merely an event to celebrate the coming of spring and the end of the year. and of course an excuse to get as much food and drink into you as is possible.

 

[DeletedUser]

So any of you haven't experienced religion being forced on you? Like some of you pointed out, the traditions vary in different parts of the world. As for me, I still have to deal with all the religious parts of the holiday. Which is kinda funny, as my country is one of the most 'pagan' of them all.

In school every year around Christmas time we have read texts about the birth of Jesus and etc. Most of the Christmas songs played in my school have been with religious meaning. Going to church with the whole school has also been a tradition.

And EU is supposed to be about the freedom of religion. So you have to understand me why I feel sceptical and annoyed every year. For me the New Year's eve is something that I look forward to. There is no pressure from anyone and you can truly enjoy it with friends an family.

 

[nashy19]

In school every year around Christmas time we have read texts about the birth of Jesus and etc. Most of the Christmas songs played in my school have been with religious meaning. Going to church with the whole school has also been a tradition.

Singing and church trips, only at a very young age.
I've never had to read texts like that, Religious Studies is a proper subject here (expect in faith schools).

 

[DeletedUser]

Singing and church trips, only at a very young age.
I've never had to read texts like that, Religious Studies is a proper subject here (expect in faith schools).

Well I have had to read those stupid texts (that provide false information) more than I can remember. And the fact that I have studied 3 foreign languages means that I have had to read them in 4 different languages. Talk about the freedom of choice.

 

[DeletedUser]

It'd be called Mas then. Christmas litteraly means Christ's Mass (sort of self explanitory...).

If you look back at history, you will find that the romans celebrated on the 25th in honor of one of their Gods (other traditions span much farther back, but I will start here). The day was full of drunken parties and celebrations for this pagan God. If I recall, this was called Saturnalia. Christians were horrified of course, and wanted to keep the 25th a solemn day of fasting in honor of Christ. So to compete with this, the Christians decided to turn their celebration as festive as Saturnalia, with lights and parades and the such to attract followers.

Wow, talk about an imagination. TTR, there's absolutely nothing about it anywhere that Christians decided to counter Saturnalia with a so-called Christian values festival. In fact, your description of Saturnalia is so far off as to be laughable.

"Saturnalia became one of the most popular Roman festivals. It was marked by tomfoolery and reversal of social roles, in which slaves and masters ostensibly switched places, much like the Lord of Misrule in later Christian celebrations." ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia
​

I would guess that the Christians back then declared the celebration of Christ's birth in December to counteract the wild and paganous celebration of Saturnalia.

And a wrong guess it is. It is widely held they posed the celebrations at that time for the very same reasons they did so for other religious events, which was not to "counteract wild and paganous" celebrations, but to make it easier to convert others to their faith, by transposition, i.e., trickery.

 

[DeletedUser]

For me Christmas is a very nice tradition. My mom made it special every year. One cute thing she does, even though me and my sister are all grown up, is sneaking the gifts under the tree. When I believed in Santa, it made me feel great. When I stopped believing in Santa, it started to become cute. I tried many times to find the gifts and catch her sneaking them under the tree, but never succeeded. She's just to good.
My point is: Christmas traditions start in your family. I think many families make it unique and adapt it to their own taste. It is up to you if you want to carry on your family traditions, if you want to make them funner or easier. But it is also up to you to inspire (or not) your children to carry it on. I think that bringing joy on your kids faces and in their hearts will make you feel special and inspire your kids to do the same with their kids. Is not just about gifts. Is about the fun of preparation too. For me it would be special to have a daughter to help me with the cookies. Or a son to help me decorate. I do not decorate much, specially not the outside of my house (I think that is so cheesy). But I do love having the Christmas tree and I will try to steal my mom's secrets of sneaking the gifts under the tree.
I don't care about other people's traditions, if they are religious or not, if they do have any or not. But I do care about my traditions, the ones I inherited from my parents, the ones I will come up with myself and the ones my children will have when they will have their own families. That is what Christmas is about for me!

 

[DeletedUser]

Most people are hypocrite to some extent,in fact we couldn't have a civilized society,healthy relationships,functioning businesses,or democracies or even a minimal degree of good behavior without at least some form of hypocrisy going.
What is generally acceptable or not acceptable is simply the measure of it,ie: the degree or the extent of it.

As to Christmas,any excuse to party,have a good time with your family and friends,exchange gifts,reunite with loved ones,help feed/cloth the poor cannot be all that bad even if you are not a Christian.
Some Traditions/celebrations are worth adoption even by the unintended target imo.

 

[DeletedUser]

Wow, talk about an imagination. TTR, there's absolutely nothing about it anywhere that Christians decided to counter Saturnalia with a so-called Christian values festival. In fact, your description of Saturnalia is so far off as to be laughable.

"Saturnalia became one of the most popular Roman festivals. It was marked by tomfoolery and reversal of social roles, in which slaves and masters ostensibly switched places, much like the Lord of Misrule in later Christian celebrations." ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia
​

Also from the wikipedia source, Saturnalia was a time to eat, drink, and be merry. Gambling was allowed for all, even slaves. Saturnalia involved the conventional sacrifices, a couch (lectisternium) set out in front of the temple of Saturn and the untying of the ropes that bound the statue of Saturn during the rest of the year

Sacrifices. Gambling. A riotus celebration of feasts, drinking, and "merriment". Sounds wild to me. I may of have exagerated my point though, as they did give gifts and visit families, but nonetheles it was a wild celebration according to Christians at the time.

And a wrong guess it is. It is widely held they posed the celebrations at that time for the very same reasons they did so for other religious events, which was not to "counteract wild and paganous" celebrations, but to make it easier to convert others to their faith, by transposition, i.e., trickery.

http://www.articlesbase.com/holidays-articles/the-history-of-christmas-608091.html

in 350 A.D, the Bishop of Rome, Pope Julius I, fixed December 25 as the official day for Christmas. This date, the day of the winter solstice, was wisely chosen with the intention to outweigh the popular pagan Roman holiday of Saturnalia. ​

Eventually it was decided that the celebration would be tamed and made into a celebration fit for the Christian Son of God.
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As I look at it, I imagine that the Christians looked at the celebration as a threat to steal followers from the Church to the very popular and very paganus (sacrifices infront of the temples as I have previously stated) celebration of a Roman God. Of course the Christians wanted to stop the stealing of their followers durring this time, so they adoped the customs of the festival and celebrated the birth of Jesus instead of the Roman god.​

And although the festival originated to improve morale of defeated romans after a battle against the Carthaginians, it well seems that they were the group trying to steal followers of Christianity with this pagan celebration full of candles, drinking, and merriment.​

 

[DeletedUser]

I may of have exagerated my point though, as they did give gifts and visit families, but nonetheles it was a wild celebration according to Christians at the time.

You're still exaggerating. And you really don't know what was considered, "wild" by Christians at the time, now do you?

http://www.articlesbase.com/holidays-articles/the-history-of-christmas-608091.html

in 350 A.D, the Bishop of Rome, Pope Julius I, fixed December 25 as the official day for Christmas. This date, the day of the winter solstice, was wisely chosen with the intention to outweigh the popular pagan Roman holiday of Saturnalia.​

hehe, this so-called article was written by a guy named, Dimitry, who provided no sources in his article and no information about himself. Remember that old rule about research TTR? It's the same one journalists live by --- verify your sources.

Anyway, I reviewed this Dimitry's article, and it's rife with incorrect information. But, if you really want to believe a stranger's unsubstantiated tripe, by all means.
​