Update 1.33

[DeletedUser]

and now we have new rules which forbide us from loaning the rare items from or to other player just to get som exp or benefits or achievements. if you find some player who has large number of rare items you should report him. who the heck writes this stupid rules. is it some child up to 8 years old or some one mentaly instable, every item i bought for a low price or normal or over prised is to gain achievement so i can get more collectors stuff. how can they determine the right price for some rare item. you have purchase price and if i get for this price, jeeeej lucky me if it is against the rules, the devs should make a higher price on rare items. and how much is too much, make some formula up to 20 times its purchase value and thats it, dont make silly rules just because you are incompetent or you dont have enought time to make some adjustments to the game


im fourious about today new rules, if this keeps up im gonna leave the game instead of buy more nuggets to get some advantage in the game, seems to me the devs should make some thing clear in their head first

:shootout:

 

[DeletedUser]

Think logically. If I find Nat's Machete on Traveling merchant job and am not into dueling nor I need that weapon at all, what rule says that selling it to another player in my town is forbidden?
Even if that's still questionable, tell me, why is that weapon auctionable in the first place?
The rule is hardly about shinies. See... In the example above I did sell Nat's machete to another player, but he could still buy the same thing from someone else. Besides, who says he already gathered all other weapons in order to get an achievement?

The new rule is there to prevent you from opening another acc in order to gather friendship points. Nothing more.
Lemme explain it more... My nick is JoxerTM, right? And now let's say I don't want to use that nick anymore on w16 so I open another account under nick Unhingedsux. But instead of playing fair, I use that new acc, my acc, through a ref link provided by JoxerTM acc so my JoxerTM acc gets benefits - from my second acc!
You want another example? Ok... Let's say a certain person opens an acc ladygaga2 and connects it to her previous acc - nitnotnet - through ref link. Is that fair? Of course not!
That's what the new rule is about.

 

[DeletedUser]

if this rule only apply to cheating with second account, then i over reacted, that should be punished. but from rules i dont see that this is just limited to second account.only this line reffers to second acount

Additionally, it is prohibited to create secondary accounts in order to provide or receive unmerited rewards via the referral system.

anything else is for all players:
§6) Pushing
Pushing refers to an exploitative use of ingame features to provide experience, cash, and/or items to other account(s). Specifically, a player may not participate in a prearranged duel, bounty, or market trade to provide and/or obtain inordinate amounts of experience points, items or ingame cash.

as far as i see this its against the rules if i buy large amount of item at sales price just to get the achievements point or am i wrong

 

[DeletedUser]

You're wrong. If you were right then the rule would be written like this:

1. You're not allowed to buy a shiny item needed for an achievement, instead you MUST get that item by yourself anywhere except from the market (from a quest if it's a quest reward, from a job if it can drop on a job or from a steel box).
2. It's forbidden to buy a steel box as it may happen you get a shiny from that steel box needed for an achievement.
3. It's forbidden to sell key#3 to anyone as you're helping another player to get XP, cash and a nice weapon. You have 10 keys #3 from steel boxes? Sell them to NPC trader, but on the market.... That's out of the question.

 

[DeletedUser22493]

Correct me if im wrong here, but its a bit of a gray-zone. You can always sell a shiny item for a reasonable price, and then sell it back for the same price.

Or do the loop-de-doop. Sell to a friend for the items real market value, who sells it to a friend, who sell its to another friend, who in the end sells it back to the original owner for what he sold it for in the first place.

I mean, why do we even have the town and alliance market if not?
§6) Pushing

Pushing refers to an exploitative use of ingame features to provide experience, cash, and/or items to other account(s). Specifically, a player may not participate in a prearranged duel, bounty, or market trade to provide and/or obtain inordinate amounts of experience points, items or ingame cash. Additionally, it is prohibited to create secondary accounts in order to provide or receive unmerited rewards via the referral system.

 

[DeletedUser]

i agree and one more silly rule:
If you notice that a character has too many unique items you must report it.

ok now should someone really report me

 

[DeletedUser]

Rebow, gray zone it is, that's true. But understand that devs want more players not to solo. Collections, that can be solved by "itemborrowing" between townmates can only help the cause.

Orientius, honestly I don't study other players' equipped items. That rule is definetly silly.
And I won't report you as I don't see an odd or impossible to get item there.

 

[DeletedUser]

Hate to say this Joxer, but it's the unspecified nature of the word 'inordinate' that makes this a stupidly worded, badly designed rule.

Who determines what is ordinate and inordinate?
What are the circumstances when I decide to sell 100 coal at the minimum sales price to just my townmates to help them acquire coal for making bayonets? Am I ok under the arbitrary rules when 10 townmates buy the coal, but in trouble when only 1 townmate buys it?
Is a buyer in trouble when he/she buys 100 coal for a good price when there's been no contact between the buyer/seller?

Someone buys key 1. Key 1 minimum price is $7500, but the buyer actually pays the sellers 'buy-now' price of $500,000. Under rule 6, explain to me how this couldn't be interpreted as cash pushing?

In real life: Ebay says you can be a seller. Sell as much stuff as you want. Do you think Ebay would be in business if it had a rule which said:

You are free to make a profit, but if you make an inordinate amount of profit, we will report you to the tax man.

Change the subjective wording of 'inordinate' to something specific and objective, and you have a well understood, well defined, and ultimately respected rule.

 

[DeletedUser]

But understand that devs want more players not to solo. Collections, that can be solved by "itemborrowing" between townmates can only help the cause.

thats my point, i have made 50% more friends now in the last month than i did ih whole last year dueling, working and ff. and the credit goes to item borrowing from other players. dont really see how could you get this many items solo

 

[DeletedUser]

Supraxus, I'll take your question:

Someone buys key 1. Key 1 minimum price is $7500, but the buyer actually pays the sellers 'buy-now' price of $500,000. Under rule 6, explain to me how this couldn't be interpreted as cash pushing?

The buyer has GG already? If yes, that's push. Unless the buyer returns the key on the market trying to get 600.000K by reselling. Or even a million. So if it's push is easy to determine by support.
The buyer doesn't have GG, that's not push. However there is another case here - if the buyer doesn't have key #2 because of a bad choice in The Raid quest. It's still not push - the buyer is probably a newb who doesn't know that key #3 can't help him if he picked a wrong choice in a quest so he'll just resell it later.

Support can always see if something is push or not.

 

[DeletedUser]

You're right, support an always see the context of a trade by looking at the buyer and seller 'histories'. But what an administrative pain in the . It's like government creating red-tape jobs so employment numbers go up. I for one would prefer support people helping out on support and not 'policing' trades...

Just change the rule. Note I'm not saying get rid of it (a feeling which I personally have), just define it better...

And btw, why can't I own 10 key 1's and 2's if I decide I want to collect them? That's my business on how I spent my legitimite 'in-game' cash. WHO determines that I can or can't own 50 of any items? Actually, why would Inno care really?

 

[DeletedUser]

ok thx for your answer JoxerTM, but rules should be clearer, there is no place for gray like in our country law, no one gets convicted for stealing accept those poor thats stealing bread for survival

 

[DeletedUser22493]

Id really like a mod come here an explain this to us.

Im not going to justify pushing by saying it brings more people to the game.
But there really is a grey zone. Ive "pushed" items and products for low prices to town and alliance friends, just to help them out. Not bigtime-shoveling-money-up-their-ass, but just a nice deal to help a beginner out, and prevent them from loosing interest.
A few products to help them with a quest, a cheap fort gun if they don't have one.
Don't get me wrong here, im not buying anyones membership. Everyone's got to make their own future. But a helping hand is something else.

Why? Were friends, we help each other out! Team-work! I can honestly say that without that, and its attitude, my town and alliance would have been long gone.
Some actually like helping others, more then anything else.

Ofcourse, I can see how "bigger" pushing arrangements is negative. Like selling a rare worth 100k for 10k.

But I don't want to go around feeling like a criminal because im nice to my own friends.
Please define what pushing is, in a few more words then whats in the rules.

 

[DeletedUser]

I have to agree with everything that Rebow said, and I'm one of the persons that play this game in big part cause I get to arrange good deals for my friends, townies and allies, to help them out with their goals.

I'm going to make it simple for whatever official voice will come and reply to this using a few examples from my current game:
* buying 20 pcs of rum for $150 each and reselling them to a crafter for $7 each
* buying a precise percussion rifle for $9000 from an alliance member that has them in their town gunsmith and put it on the market for me
* reselling that same gun when I have outgrown it for $4500 to someone in my town/alliance
* buying 7 pieces of wood for $1050 each from a townie that needed money and later selling back two of them for the same price and letting the rest of the loan go to the town treasury in a town I don't longer live in.
* buying an equipment set for a specific job for purchase price and reselling it for sales price to a certain player so that player can harvest a specific product for a third player
* selling a lump of dirt for $1 for exchange for a pickaxe at $44?

Are any of these examples 'inordinate'? All of the above examples contain some prearranged element, all of them somehow moves money from my account to several other accounts (granted, some of it will get back to me either directly but much later, or by creating an atmosphere of sharing/helping that I can use later on)

I'm not after finding the 'sweet spot' where I can 'push-but-not-too-much-so-I-don't-get-banned', I'm trying to figure out if this game is worth my time at all. All the above are things I would consider essential to my playing style.

/Edlit

 

[DeletedUser363]

If you notice that a character has too many unique items you must report it.

This one just made me laugh :laugh:

 

[DeletedUser]

I just say if limits were implemented within a code, no one would say a word. However there always will be misinterpreting of rules as 100 people will almost certainly have 100 (maybe less) different points of view. So I think is no point to enforce such a silly rules as support can see them different as players do and therefore create an unnecessary discussion and confrontation on forums. I think this whole pushing rule paragraph is useless and silly. Everybody has a chance to help or get help from friends. Its not my problem that I can't/don't want to make any friends in the game. Good luck support with hunting players who don't obey push rule.

 

[Diggo11]

To clarify, the example regarding abuse of bugs is exactly that. If you suddenly find a player equipped with a developers item such as the Rocketin' Turtle, or perhaps they go around bragging they own thirty six golden guns on chat whilst key three can only be found once per player, they have clearly exploited a bug and it need be reported. Finding the entire collectors set obviously would not need to be reported, unless perhaps the owner is level fifty or at some other impossibly low level.

You're right, support an always see the context of a trade by looking at the buyer and seller 'histories'. But what an administrative pain in the .

Hehe, not when you have the right tools. This is the reason why we do not set some magical number on how much or often becomes illegal, the day after we may see numerous n-1 trades occurring, however it also allows us to consider context. People who push usually do so en masse, and we're not "out to get" every single player who unintentionally stretches the limits once or twice. That's just one example of how context allows us to enforce the rule where largely applicable, avoiding nitpicky and largely unnecessary bannings.

Im not going to justify pushing by saying it brings more people to the game.
But there really is a grey zone. Ive "pushed" items and products for low prices to town and alliance friends, just to help them out. Not bigtime-shoveling-money-up-their-ass, but just a nice deal to help a beginner out, and prevent them from loosing interest.
A few products to help them with a quest, a cheap fort gun if they don't have one.
Don't get me wrong here, im not buying anyones membership. Everyone's got to make their own future. But a helping hand is something else.

Ofcourse, I can see how "bigger" pushing arrangements is negative. Like selling a rare worth 100k for 10k. But I don't want to go around feeling like a criminal because im nice to my own friends.

Hehe, you could make a nice poster guy there. We don't mind you selling your old gear to friends and helping them out with some cheaper gear, in fact I'd encourage that! However, as you so nicely put it, shovelling money up their arse is the "not-on" activity we don't want to see happening. With the exception of pants and belts, The West was largely designed such that money was the limiting factor rather than your level. Whilst it offers move variety in saving up for the stronger items or buying heaps and heaps of the weaker ones, it also means the game quickly becomes unbalanced if every new player suddenly has Athos Foil and a lump sum of $100,000 to spend as they please. In short - giving new players a helping hand is good, giving new players an excessive helping hand to the detriment of other new players is bad.

I just say if limits were implemented within a code, no one would say a word. However there always will be misinterpreting of rules as 100 people will almost certainly have 100 (maybe less) different points of view.

There are inbuilt limits, sales price to foreign price, but only for items available from the shops. "Special" items can be sold at their purchase price or any higher and unrestricted value, and there lies the opportunity some have, are and will continue to exploit. That's where support comes in...


In short, if you wouldn't be happy with a "no-give-backs" on your trade then don't commit to it. That's a pretty fair indicator on whether you know you're making a trade that is excessively biased.

 

[DeletedUser]

Finding the entire collectors set obviously would not need to be reported, unless perhaps the owner is level fifty or at some other impossibly low level.

I'm sure gaga could do it
but anyways, thanks for the clarification, it falls in line with what I expected you would say. Collaboration is good, but exploits aren't.

 

[DeletedUser22493]

Thanks for the clarification. Should be no problem to follow.

 

[DeletedUser]

My dear Suzy, what does that 10% exactly do? Increases? Really? Or in fact - restores?

As for +2 to APs... LOL
Now that's some huge bonus, just by itself it's definetly a reason to waste time on dailies. Imagine how useable it is. Practically with those +8 APs you'll pwn the game. And all you need to do is just to solve a few quests, not a biggie for such an awsome animal, right?

Hehe, I like your cynism Joxer
Actually it was confirmed several times now that there is a setbonus for the full collectors set. Even if some of the single itemboni might be useless (collector's pants ^^) there is still hope that the full setbonus might be very rewarding, making the camel the single ultimately important item. Borrowing all these rare items from different people who own them (if you don't own all of them yourself) might be no big deal, but solving 1000 dailies is. Since the reward might be appropriate better start collecting daily quests now.