Website westcalc.info – job and fort battle clothing calculator

Elmyr

I'm starting to reconsider the benefits of balanced fort skills with bonus to have the best results. When forts were first implemented, the only gear I really had for fort skills on one world was dueling gear, so aim and dodging. I had a battle yesterday where I literally got home with one minute left to join, so I was still wearing dueling gear, and I had the best stats I've ever had, with 3600 damage.

I used to say the rules were ambiguous and everyone said I was wrong, "all that matters is the bonus", but I'm starting to thinking my old theory was correct and each skill plays its own role, taken as a whole, and the bonus is just that, a bonus, and not the only number that matters.
 

D. Saint

One battle is hardly a statistical sample. The result you had with might have been caused by a number of reasons.
Come back when you have done a hundred, or so, battles in dueling gear.. ;)

But I'll admit it's an interesting theory.
 

kman288

there should be an option to calculate the bonuses with optimum dodging or optimum aim. it may not be the most use of clothing, but just because it looks less efficient doesn't mean it actually is when considering the gains. if you chose to have optimum dodging, and basically ignore aim, then it would seem like your screwing yourself over, just because it looks to be inefficient. however, if you can dodge very well in a fort battle, then you may be useful as a distraction to protect your allies from getting hit, and can get right up in the faces of the enemy.
 

Elmyr

One battle is hardly a statistical sample. The result you had with might have been caused by a number of reasons.
Come back when you have done a hundred, or so, battles in dueling gear.. ;)

But I'll admit it's an interesting theory.
I'm not using one battle, I'm using every battle I was in before I really had for gear and I wore dueling gear instead, and that usually includes aim. It's still not enough data for a reliable sampling, but it's more than one battle. :p

Oh yeah, and the last battle I was in I wore nothing but aim gear, right down to a blue bow tie and figaro's razor...the results were not good. ;)
 

westcalc.info

In the experiments i made with my friends,in the very start of the fort battle thing,when we wear dueling equipment we were not as good as when we wearing fort clothes,customized for every one.When we were wearing the suggested clothes we had better statistics than the others in the same battle.For me definetely dueling equipment does not work because i'm a dueler in the world i play and i have already high aim and dodge.I wish only theese two skills matter ,because they are useless for jobs,but it doesnt.
If the battles were not just bonus calculations, the developers wouldnt have tried to balance the battle system just by doubling the buikding bobuses.They would have changed something else,if there is something else more important than bonus.Also there more factors that i believe battle mechanics are just bonus and distasnce calculations but i dont have the time and the fluency to explain it right now.

@keyman288
I had implement such features in my script because i thought it would be usefull to have high dodge when you are in the front line and high aim when you are hiding behind other people.But it costs more excecution time and the gain was very small so i never made them public.The deferense to the bonuses was too small to worth it because for 66,6% both aim and dodge bonuses are determined from the same factors.maybe i'll implement it again in case i was wrong.The thing that i have in my priorities but havent still found the time to code it is to enable an option to the players to determine a minimum health points gain and calculate the best equipment giving at least that minimum health points.
 

Bendos

The problem is that these levels don't exist. Having 71 Aim is only marginally better than having 70 aim - not a 'level' better.

Zet (one of the developers) said in a comment to the developer blog that the bonus was calculated as a floating point number and not an integer. So the levels or step-numbers in the help file only indicate that there fort skills give decreasing marginal returns, that is an extra point gives less bonus the more points you already have.
I was under the impression that the fort skills were stepped to 3,10,23,43,71 and that any value in between was ineffectual. i.e. rather than maximising aim to say, 60, I should change gear and reduce aim to 44 and increase dodge to 23 from day 19. i.e. I am trying to get the most skills at their highest stepped level. Something that Westcalc didn't do. Is this right? Or should I just maximise overall fort skills?
 

westcalc.info

I am trying to get the most skills at their highest stepped level. Something that Westcalc didn't do. Is this right? Or should I just maximise overall fort skills?
That is what the script was doing in the past,but as D.Saint metioned the comment at the developers blog,i changed the calculation method,so the results reflect the information we got.Dr.Drud has explained the relation of the bonuses and the skill points levels perfectly in the previus posts.
 

Elmyr

I was under the impression that the fort skills were stepped to 3,10,23,43,71 and that any value in between was ineffectual. i.e. rather than maximising aim to say, 60, I should change gear and reduce aim to 44 and increase dodge to 23 from day 19. i.e. I am trying to get the most skills at their highest stepped level. Something that Westcalc didn't do. Is this right? Or should I just maximise overall fort skills?
http://devblog.the-west.net/?p=163#comment-195
 

Bendos

That is what the script was doing in the past,but as D.Saint metioned the comment at the developers blog,i changed the calculation method,so the results reflect the information we got.Dr.Drud has explained the relation of the bonuses and the skill points levels perfectly in the previus posts.
Please explain it to me. Treat me like an idiot. Are these "stepped" numbers relevant or not?
 

Elmyr

Please explain it to me. Treat me like an idiot. Are these "stepped" numbers relevant or not?
I gave you the relevant link...

zet said:
Also you might want to know that the help does not re*veal that the bonus is float*ing point which means that you can have an “un*even” bonus
 

westcalc.info

the comment is saying that every skill point counts,but as long as you stuf points at a skill,the value of each extra points decreases in steps.
for example
increasing one skill from 15 to 16 has better effect than increasing another from 70 to 71,even if 71 matches the +6 bonus level.

if a skill has a value s,with l<s<h, then every point added to that skill adds about 1/(h-l) to the bonus,where l :(0,1,3,10,23,43,71,...) is the bonus level already reached,and h the next bonus level.
 
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Bendos

the comment is saying that every skill point counts,but as long as you stuf points at a skill,the value of each extra points decreases in steps.
for example
increasing one skill from 15 to 16 has better effect than increasing another from 70 to 71,even if 71 matches the +6 bonus level.

if a skill has a value s,with l<s<h, then every point added to that skill adds about 1/(h-l) to the bonus,where l :(0,1,10,23,43,71,...) is the bonus level already reached,and h the next bonus level.
Let's assume that I am not a Professor in mathematics. Now please explain in English!
 

westcalc.info

if you got 0 skill points in leadership adding one point,you reach the next level and that point adds a value of 1 to the bonus.
if you got 1 or 2 points,adding 1 point gives 0.5 to the bonus until you reach 3 skill points and bonus +2.
if you got 3 or 4 or 5 or ... or 9 skill points adding 1 point gives 1/7 to the bonus until you reach 10 skill points and bonus +3.
if you got 10 or 11 or ... or 22 skill points adding 1 point gives 1/13 to the bonus until you reach 23 skill points and a bonus +4.
assuming you got 10 skill points .that gives you +3 bonus.adding one point and make them 11,you gain 1/13~=0.077 to the bonus wich is now +3.077.
....


thats all i can do
 
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Bendos

if you got 0 skill points in leadership adding one point,you reach the next level and that point adds a value of 1 to the bonus.
if you got 1 or 2 points,adding 1 point gives 0.5 to the bonus until you reach 3 skill points and bonus +2.
if you got 3 or 4 or 5 or ... or 9 skill points adding 1 point gives 1/7 to the bonus until you reach 10 skill points and bonus +3.
if you got 10 or 11 or ... or 22 skill points adding 1 point gives 1/13 to the bonus until you reach 23 skill points and a bonus +4.
assuming you got 10 skill points .that gives you +3 bonus.adding one point and make them 11,you gain 1/13~=0.077 to the bonus wich is now +3.077.
....


thats all i can do
I appreciate that, thank you. Now this is the first I have heard of bonuses. I understand the formula i.e. the division of the difference between levels and it being added to the fort skill. However, it was never explained about the level bonuses i.e. 3,10,23 etc.

You say 10 SP gives you a bonus of 3. Perhaps someone can explain the bonus points system then and this will make things clearer in my mind at least.
 

D. Saint

Bendos,
You don't really need to understand the exact formula, as long as you do understand that there are no sudden thresholds to pass for bonuses, every point counts.

But the higher the skill value, the less each additional point counts. The ideal way of getting as high a bonus as possible, is to have an equal skill-level in all the fort the skills.

The gear that will help you the most, are the items that increases the skills that you do not have a high base skill in. For example, if you have low leadership but high aim, you are much better off wearing a top hat instead of a felt hat.

And the best part of all this is that www.westcalc.info will do all the thinking for you.. ;)
 

Bendos

Thanks Saint
I was told that the thresholds were the key and that points in-between were wasted. If you do get a bonus for a threshold though, could it be that the bonus is better than increasing a lower skill? i.e. a leadership level of 23 and aim of 11 as opposed to leadership 20 and aim 17 for example?

Also, it says "shooting bonus" and "dodging bonus". I assume that this just relates to aim and leadership not shooting attribute?
 

D. Saint

There are no thresholds, the bonus is a "floating point". All points "in-between" counts, but each new point counts less. Imagine it as a pyramide, with 1 at the base and 170-whatever at the top. The first few points give you a larger bonus increase and the last gives near nothing.

Shooting and dodging in the case of fort battles refers to the actions you perform, not the skills. These actions are then based on the bonus you get from the (fort battle) skills and the terrain/building bonus on the battle-field.
 

Dr.Drud

I'll just quote a post I made in my town forum a while ago:

As you may or may not know, the developers have started a blog a few months back, revealing a few details of their workings and plans for the future. It has come to my attention that one of the developers, Zet, has posted the following in a comment in the blog:

Zet the Developer said:
Also you might want to know that the help does not reveal that the bonus is floating point which means that you can have an “uneven” bonus, for example 7.3.
This means that the assumption that any point in a Fort Battle skill is redundant if it does not increase your skill level to another bracket is false - the bracket being the ones described in the help file.
So the particular step-numbers (1,3,10,23,43...) don't mean anything! The fort bonus is just a "regular" (probably continuous) function of skill points. A function with diminishing returns (so increasing your low skills is still the most important thing), but not a discontinous function as we had thought so far.

This means that boosting your Leadership from 43 (the minimum limit to get a +5 bonus) to 70 (just below the limit to get a +6 bonus) will benefit you! You'll not gain another +1 bonus (as you would by getting to 71), but you'd get a bonus of +27/28 ~ 0.96!

A good thing about this is that since the boni gained from skill points is no longer discontinuous, it's a lot easier to find an optimal set of items to wear for a fort battle.

This is why I now believe that www.westcalc.info is actually correct (as opposed to just 'close to optimal'). If you use it, it'll show you the best gear (that you have in your inventory) to wear either when defending or attacking a Fort. It'll also show you your bonus as a floating (or decimal) number. I recommend it to all!


This post should contain 2 graphs. If you're having trouble loading them, just tell me and I'll see if I can fix it.

The following graph is how we all thought Fort Battle Bonus points worked:



As you can see it's a discountinous function that jumps up (the bonus increases by one) whenever the amount of skill points surpasses one of the step numbers (0, 1, 3, 10, 23, 43, 71, 108, 155, 211). What we used to conclude from the help file was that the above was true, and thus that increasing (for an example) Leadership from 50 to 60 had no effect. However, Zet has now revealed that this is not how it is to be interpreted.

A truer picture is shown in the continous graph below:



The truth is that inreasing Leadership from 50 to 60 does give an added bonus! However, it doesn't give an entire 'Bonus point' but only a partial one.
Exactly how much bonus it will provide is unknown, but since it's 10 Skill points in the interval from 43 to 71 (the two step numbers), it's probably a fairly good estimation to say that it gives a bonus proportional to the size of the step. That is to say that the bonus of increasing Leadership from 50 to 60 is approximately 10/(71-43) = 10/28 = 0.36 bonus point.
 

D. Saint

Very nice Dr. Drud, but this is already well known and part of the script calculation.. :)

I brought this up on the 4th page of this thread, and it's been talked about pretty much since..