Use the IFBC branch to test PvP balancing

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
Idea title:
Once the IFBC has concluded, use the Event Server branch of the game to test Fort battle balancing measures, where an unbelievable number of fort fighters are already gathered due to the IFBC, and no revenue streams will be affected.

Details of idea:
Formula Ideas to be incrementally tested include:
- First and foremost, modernising the number of players who can attend battles to 50 vs 45/ 77 vs 70/ 100 vs 92, to test Diggo's years old idea on beta to a more professional degree. This alone could go a long way to making fights better, but there should be some flexibility in the numbers based on a specific world's needs.
- Damage formula nerfing, with diminishing returns on very high leadership values
- Resistance formula buffs, with a greater base multiplier, or ((Hiding OR Setting Traps) x 1.25)
- Removing the 33% damage limit per shot on low HP players, to counter the previous resistance buff effect on damagers (RIP new accounts though)
- Percentage based resistance, instead of the previous two ideas
- Decreasing the base attack bonus to 20, while increasing the base defend value to 25
- Increasing Tower and wall bonuses for defenders by 10%, to counter attacker LoS advantage during the initial stages of the battle
- Nerfing Sector Damage in the damage formula to (Weapon Damage + Sector Damage + (Weapon Damage × Leadership ÷ MaxHP))
- Decreasing Sector Damage bonuses given by Union Officer set by 50%, or changing it to a personal damage bonus
- New Resistance sector bonus to counter Sector Damage Bonus (@Harsha.. )

Class bonus ideas to be initially tested:
Soldiers - Increased leadership bonus to 30% and 60% to neighbouring players, New resistance bonus which is an additional 10% or 20% of your resistance value to encourage non-pure HP builds
Adventurers - Chance to ghost begins when 1k or 2k damage has been taken, replacing the 2 hits requirement from before. % chance to ghost is increased from 50% to 75%
Duellers - Nerf or REMOVE critical hits, replace with a 5% and 10% Weapon Damage bonus. Unsure about this one as crits may still be required to kill a nugget tank or low hp/high resistance build if other changes are made. A much more detailed (and frankly better) idea can be found [here], thanks to @P4F Mastermind
Workers - New bonus when a worker is on the Worker Tower, increasing their tower DEFENCE bonus by 5% or 10%

New bonuses could be RNG based, to bring them into line with the other two classes, or RNG could be removed from the equation entirely. Imo PvP should be based on player skill, and not luck.

Rewards and Other ideas to be initially tested:
- Bring back random drops in fort battles, create a new reward pool that's good enough to encourage attendance
- 1 additional bond for adventurers every time they "ghost" a shot
- 0.1/0.2 additional bonds for every 1k of health points lost during the battle
- Harambe is still lost but never forgotten.
- New daily Fort Quests, with different objectives and rewards good enough to increase attendance (@Harsha.. )
- Custom Avatars for Fort Battle Leaders (@Harsha.. )

- Fort shop that we were promised like 11 years ago as a reason to own forts, with a pool of random fort buffs and maybe new single use weapons (@Nisa )
- Additional daily reward for all players that are members of town in a fort, took part in fort battles or completed daily quests: A new special fort currency similar to VP from adventures. Could spend these points in the Fort shop.

Future tombola and nugget sale requirements:
- Sets must have a hard cap on the number of attribute and skill points they can give
- If a Damager set is released, a Tank set must also accompany it to keep the balance, and vice versa
- Keep a regular yearly schedule for releasing new fort sets, once per year on a specific tombola, not DotD though. (@Harsha.. )
- New sets must be given to all players on Beta, or the Event test world, to fully test them before release. Feedback must not be ignored as is the current precedent
- Ensure that Fort Fighting sets have all skills and bonus relevant to Fort Fighting.... This one annoys me the most

The ultimate aim is to enable attackers and defenders the chance of winning around half of all battles each on a lively and balanced world. Obviously these ideas will have to be tested and tower bonuses balanced for small, medium and large forts individually. In addition to my other idea about world merges, we could have full onliner large battles again on .net and beyond. I know how much work this seems to be, but this is simply trying to fix the consequences of years of mismanagement, and a shrunken player-base, bringing the game back to being a game again, where people have fun playing it. You could even brand it as "The West 3.0" when the developer is satisfied, to draw back some old players who left due to broken fort battles. Our developer is one of those players fwiw.

Reasons for submitting: Fort battles are broken in this game currently. We need to try new things to Make The West Great Again, and we happen to have a world full of around 1.6k people who love Fort Fighting, who will soon have to go back to Tombola simulator, or leave the game. Please show us that you even want to fix fort fighting and we'll be patient. Here's my suggestions for a starting point, I've tried to make it as much about simply tweaking numbers as I can, since dev time is limited. I am also not expecting everything to be done at once, or at all really. Some of these ideas may also be OP, need testing.
One last hurrah, as they say. I'm extremely open to discussion, and really hope people have comments or thoughts or ideas to add, and if one of my ideas is terrible, please tell me.
 
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kuro90

The West Team
Community Manager
Rebalancing FB is in the "todo" list this year and hopefully, even with the Corona-issue, they will start to work on it. I agree that the event server could be used for testing new formulas and having direct feedback from all the Communities. I will suggest it.
 

RaiderTr

Well-Known Member
Well, thanks a lot for the info Kuro, but knowing the half-way-through scrapped, announced but cancelled projects/plans, I will try not to have high hopes :'P
(In any case such work wouldn't conclude within 3-6 months anyway)

But lets say everything gone well with the plan and all, I doubt player numbers of all servers will fix itselves.
So I wish we get some merge/closures of servers and all that.. (Detailed stuff on other thread)

It's also worth to mention again the fact that most of the remaining player base is the same people with different accounts on multiple worlds.
Say, for example, Idaho has tons of Houston players, as well as Jurarez has tons of Idaho'nians.

And as you can imagine a person can't play all as active. Even if great at multi-tasking.
 
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Harsha..

Well-Known Member
This is a pretty well thought out and nuanced post. Of course, not all ideas are bound to work and some can have unintended consequences. But, the important thing is to set the ball rolling and start testing; if we don't try, we will never really know and the game will keep on moving along it's long-winded, miserable course into obscurity.

- Decreasing Sector Damage bonuses given by Union Officer set by 50%
If this can't be implemented due to the risk of angering nugget players, an alternative is to cease making that damage "sector damage" and instead change it to a personal damage bonus. In other words, the player with the weapon gets the full damage bonus, but the other players in the same sector won't get any bonus at all.

In its place, a resistance sector bonus could be introduced. Players could get a boost to their resistance from the gear of other players in their sector.

Rewards changes ideas to be initially tested:
- Bring back random drops in fort battles, create a new reward pool that's good enough to encourage attendance
- 1 additional bond for adventurers every time they "ghost" a shot
- 0.1 additional bonds for every 1k of health points lost during the battle
Reforming the reward system is a simple and effective way of improving attendance as we all saw in the coin event. I like the three you listed here, but I would increase the reward slightly to 0.2 bonds for every 1k of health points lost.

In addition to that, build further on the daily FF quests we already have. Add in more specific quests with FF objectives in them. and the rewards can be more diverse, such as herb chests, other buffs, and various unique items. These quests could also give out big experience bonus and potions of wisdom which would encourage new players to go to battles more and help them level up much more quickly. There also needs to be a specific focus on rewards for FF leaders. At present leaders/diggers, don't get any specific rewards for their trouble. These rewards can be community-based with the moderators giving out special items (or avatars) to the active leaders on a server, and the "best leads" can receive extra rewards and be featured in a newsletter.


Future tombola and nugget sale requirements:
- Sets must have a hard cap on the number of attribute and skill points they can give
- If a Damager set is released, a Tank set must also accompany it to keep the balance, and vice versa
- New sets must be given to all players on Beta, or the Event test world, to fully test them before release. Feedback must not be ignored as is the current precedent
- Ensure that Fort Fighting sets have all skills and bonus relevant to Fort Fighting.... This one annoys me the most
To add to this - try and keep a regulated schedule for the release of new FF sets, rather than releasing them unexpectedly and at varying times. Set a limit to the release of new FF sets to once per year and in one event.

There are a few other ideas I'd specifically like to see, most particularly, new FF maps. After more than a decade of playing, it can get very repetitive and boring playing with the exact same FF maps. Very minor things, like changing the placement of buildings, developing new hiding spots within and outside the fort, or allowing the owner of a fort to "demolish" towers/walls/buildings would add a new strategic component to FFs.
 

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
Of course, not all ideas are bound to work and some can have unintended consequences.
If you don't break things while testing, you aren't testing hard enough.

If this can't be implemented due to the risk of angering nugget players, an alternative is to cease making that damage "sector damage" and instead change it to a personal damage bonus. In other words, the player with the weapon gets the full damage bonus, but the other players in the same sector won't get any bonus at all.
Yea gods forbid the leadership nuggeters have to take a hit for once. Not really a fan of giving players an Attack bonus and a damage bonus in one set, but this is now the game we're playing, I accept that.

a resistance sector bonus could be introduced.
I agree with this.

These rewards can be community-based with the moderators giving out special items (or avatars) to the active leaders on a server, and the "best leads" can receive extra rewards and be featured in a newsletter.
Hells yeah, custom cosmetics for the heroes that keep this game running :up:
To add to this - try and keep a regulated schedule for the release of new FF sets, rather than releasing them unexpectedly and at varying times. Set a limit to the release of new FF sets to once per year and in one event.
Sounds great to me.

There are a few other ideas I'd specifically like to see, most particularly, new FF maps. After more than a decade of playing, it can get very repetitive and boring playing with the exact same FF maps. Very minor things, like changing the placement of buildings, developing new hiding spots within and outside the fort, or allowing the owner of a fort to "demolish" towers/walls/buildings would add a new strategic component to FFs.
We should maybe ask for new maps only once the current ones are working properly :lol: Great ideas though, added to the list, thanks for the input.
 
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Nisa

Well-Known Member
There are a few other ideas I'd specifically like to see, most particularly, new FF maps. After more than a decade of playing, it can get very repetitive and boring playing with the exact same FF maps. Very minor things, like changing the placement of buildings, developing new hiding spots within and outside the fort, or allowing the owner of a fort to "demolish" towers/walls/buildings would add a new strategic component to FFs.

..or Fort shops with offers change like in trader so it's not always the same. Offer can change once fort is dug and there could be buffs for attackers and defenders something like +5-7 more defense on walls and towers ( like weapon buff but for walls and towers, or gate, all separate buffs ). or activated like extra bonuses.Same for attack and /or defense. There could be offer of special guns with 1 or 2 uses. Bonds / nuggets ,

Needs more thinking ofc. This was what first came to my mind about not having predictable battles.
 

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
or Fort shops with offers change like in trader so it's not always the same. Offer can change once fort is dug and there could be buffs for attackers and defenders something like +5-7 more defense on walls and towers ( like weapon buff but for walls and towers, or gate, all separate buffs ). or activated like extra bonuses.Same for attack and /or defense. There could be offer of special guns with 1 or 2 uses. Bonds / nuggets ,
Ah yes, bringing back promised features from 11 years ago, it's a good one :lol: Lots of development time required, so I guess that will be a NextYear™ or the YearAfterThat™project. It makes my list though.
 

RaiderTr

Well-Known Member
It seems a lot of old players returning to the game because of these covid lockdowns and all.
As it happens they are mostly FF'ers :roll:

Now or never Inno..
 

RaiderTr

Well-Known Member
Will consider it as the first very small step of many more to come, with a grain of salt :roll:
medium: 92v84
I would love if this was 100v90 or something on Colorado since Mediums already fill there with a little bit bump :'P
And sadly Bigs dont be fun.


Oh btw, wish 46v42 was the case for IFBC :-(
Or 50v45.
 

kuro90

The West Team
Community Manager

Nisa

Well-Known Member
More I think of 'rebalancing FB this year' more I'm getting scared of the outcome. But I got enough courage now to say it out loud. Please remove LD build and have advents be advents, soldiers be soldier , workers be brilliant workers and duelers be damagers.

Don't kill me too quick :D but I really think all classes should play by their original tasks and roles in battles . Maybe even giving them a bit of more bonuses for each class and make them even more unique and different from other classes could give us better battles with better tactics. One soldier as a damager in fort battle is so wrong in my book, or advent..same thing.
 

Harsha..

Well-Known Member
but I really think all classes should play by their original tasks and roles in battles . Maybe even giving them a bit of more bonuses for each class and make them even more unique and different from other classes could give us better battles with better tactics.
Nothing wrong with that idea on a fundamental level. Mostly I take issue with people saying `you have to play your class` when in the present state of affairs, being certain classes and builds is just so awful and depressing that going to battles ceases to be a game for fun and more like a daily chore you do for a `team`. Special focus needs to be on dramatically enhancing the reward factor, where every single class, not just the dueler class comes away feeling like they have actually accomplished something.
 

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
Please remove LD build
Well, good news for you, the new formula punishes players for skilling in pure leadership. Pure HP too of course.

have advents be advents, soldiers be soldier , workers be brilliant workers and duelers be damagers.
The "problem" with the damage formula is that everyone will have less divergent builds, so maybe a way to overcome that is playing around with class bonuses to boost their abilities in their specialist role in battles.
But the small issue with that is that we have terrible character class distribution across our worlds :roll:
 

Nisa

Well-Known Member
Well, good news for you, the new formula punishes players for skilling in pure leadership. Pure HP too of course.

Sounds promising. A bit of hope someone was participating in FB.

But the small issue with that is that we have terrible character class distribution across our worlds :roll:

Sure we do. Now let's go pray in Church of Almighty Brown Tie and hope someone logs in on worlds actually .
 

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
Special focus needs to be on dramatically enhancing the reward factor, where every single class, not just the dueler class comes away feeling like they have actually accomplished something.
Eventually it would be great to tweak the rewards from battles to bring them into the 21st century, I've expanded the rewards section in my OP at little bit with this:

- Fort shop that we were promised like 11 years ago as a reason to own forts, with a pool of random fort buffs and maybe new single use weapons (@Nisa )
- Additional daily reward for all players that are members of town in a fort, took part in fort battles or completed daily quests: A new special fort currency similar to VP from adventures. Could spend these points in the Fort shop.


I feel that forts have always been missing an actual reason to own them, and the original concept had a couple of potential advantages that seemed to have been scrapped along the way, but it would be awesome if they got picked up again sometime.
 
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Nisa

Well-Known Member
Eventually it would be great to tweak the rewards from battles to bring them into the 21st century, I've expanded the rewards section in my OP at little bit with this:

- Fort shop that we were promised like 11 years ago as a reason to own forts, with a pool of random fort buffs and maybe new single use weapons (@Nisa )
- Additional daily reward for all players that are members of town in a fort, took part in fort battles or completed daily quests: A new special fort currency similar to VP from adventures. Could spend these points in the Fort shop.


I feel that forts have always been missing an actual reason to own them, and the original concept had a couple of potential advantages that seemed to have been scrapped along the way, but it would be awesome if they got picked up again sometime.
New currency for fort shops is great idea, yes. Daily rewards for all players that are members of town in a fort would open a whole new area about towns trying to get a spot in fort and alliance(s) politics .I need more thinking about it atm :D, what would be pros and cons there.
Maybe reward for fort owners could be 1 (there is room for different amounts ) fort currency added instantly same as autoranks.