Feedback Update 2.166

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
Well that's a pretty unique take, Vik. who are we to say the entire community shouldn't need to embark on a months long campaign to cheese an achievement for a single player, in reality all you have to do is be duelled 10 times a week for 10 years straight...

That didn't happen in my first 13 years, but let's see what the next 10 brings.
 

Caerdwyn

Well-Known Member
Using Vic's method, the first person to get Achievement: Target, then needs to hold up a sign that says "Not me, him -> " and designate the next person in line to be victi.... beset by their Territory. :D
 

Harsha..

Well-Known Member
Knowing how much trouble and effort people put into trying to get the collector cards from the travelling fair (some threads on NET and beta forums have dozens of posts of people making a big deal out of it even though there are much bigger issues to talk about), I'm pretty sure some would manage to get the Sitting Duck achievement eventually.

Achievements in general have a profound psychological effect on some people. If you're an old player who's done pretty much everything, achievements are like benchmarks hanging over your head "come and get me if you can! - if you get here, you have accomplished the next great thing in the game, something that very few (or none) have done before". It tends to give motivation to certain players and I feel many of you here are underestimating that.

Heck, I don't think you need a whole world's cooperation or pushing to get to that one - you just need a group of 4-5 people who want the achievement like you do, and make a habit of queuing duels on each of them daily and they'll queue revenge duels on you back. There's plenty of overpowered resistance and regen gear out there, that they can just attack you normally equipped and you'd not be KOed. It'd probably take 3 years of doing that daily to get there. But it took some much longer to get the "Elite FF winner medal". At the end of the day, whoever wants to do it can go for it. Everyone else can just do things as usual, there's nothing world-breaking as a reward for getting it.
 

Goober Pyle

The West Team
Fort Balancing Strategist
Knowing how much trouble and effort people put into trying to get the collector cards from the travelling fair (some threads on NET and beta forums have dozens of posts of people making a big deal out of it even though there are much bigger issues to talk about), I'm pretty sure some would manage to get the Sitting Duck achievement eventually.

Achievements in general have a profound psychological effect on some people. If you're an old player who's done pretty much everything, achievements are like benchmarks hanging over your head "come and get me if you can! - if you get here, you have accomplished the next great thing in the game, something that very few (or none) have done before". It tends to give motivation to certain players and I feel many of you here are underestimating that.

Heck, I don't think you need a whole world's cooperation or pushing to get to that one - you just need a group of 4-5 people who want the achievement like you do, and make a habit of queuing duels on each of them daily and they'll queue revenge duels on you back. There's plenty of overpowered resistance and regen gear out there, that they can just attack you normally equipped and you'd not be KOed. It'd probably take 3 years of doing that daily to get there. But it took some much longer to get the "Elite FF winner medal". At the end of the day, whoever wants to do it can go for it. Everyone else can just do things as usual, there's nothing world-breaking as a reward for getting it.

While I really like and appreciate the sentiment, I think it is misplaced for activities that are specifically out of the player's control and can only really be achieved via some form of pushing. If it was something like 100k duels completed (i.e. something that would literally take 2+years of non-stop dueling but could be achieved without cooperation of third parties) I'd be far more sympathetic
 

Kidd Kalypso

Well-Known Member
Meh, until the issue of duel levels are fixed, these so called new achievements seems to be a pipe dream for the majority of players imo.
Duel lowering potions that are overpriced, once per week and don't really lower that much needs to be revamped first.
Dueling with a bible to lower levels? Come on, that has always been a push duel. And yet, now inno is encouraging it? smfh.
Surely something better can offered.
As always, just my opinion.
 

Goober Pyle

The West Team
Fort Balancing Strategist
Meh, until the issue of duel levels are fixed, these so called new achievements seems to be a pipe dream for the majority of players imo.
Duel lowering potions that are overpriced, once per week and don't really lower that much needs to be revamped first.
Dueling with a bible to lower levels? Come on, that has always been a push duel. And yet, now inno is encouraging it? smfh.
Surely something better can offered.
As always, just my opinion.
It's pretty definitionally not "pushing" to do something for your _own_ benefit. "Pushing" is voluntarily doing something that has a clear (non-negligible) negative impact for you in excess of reasonable measures of general good will, to provide a clear positive impact to another player.

If you are "coordinating" in the form of "do you mind if I bible duel you?" that doesn't make it pushing, it's just a courtesy to the player you are about to duel so they don't take offense at a duel report showing up, and have the opportunity to perhaps delay hopping in bed to spare you the "failed duel"

The main "pushing" issue with duels surrounds a player with a bounty agreeing with someone to to give them a kickback in exchange for a bible duel (the giving of the kickback is the "push", and the soliciting of it is it's own offense).
 

Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
Meh, until the issue of duel levels are fixed, these so called new achievements seems to be a pipe dream for the majority of players imo.
Duel lowering potions that are overpriced, once per week and don't really lower that much needs to be revamped first.
Dueling with a bible to lower levels? Come on, that has always been a push duel. And yet, now inno is encouraging it? smfh.
Surely something better can offered.
As always, just my opinion.

Yea you mean just scrap DL entirely because it never proved a thing, ruined thousands of games and a large part of why such a huge player base left to begin with, as some of us warned before it was implemented ? yeaaaa good luck with that, it made Inno $$$$ sucking everyone in who stuck around and bought into the new model though hasnt it ? :lol:

The entire game has become morally corrupt in so may ways now its untrue... and anyone playing for more than a few years or pre V2 with a shred of honesty should be able to see and admit that.

Yer so pushing.. literally everyone is now guilty of that.. people can play fast n loose with the "rules" or interpretation is subject to change but the truth is like life, no one here is 100% innocent .... what was morally taboo once is now ok cos all that matters is the $ bottom line.

Most FF now push duel themselves to kos including those posting here like thats ok because Inno do nothing about it ?.. Now players sit all day in open Saloon advertising sell Kansas buy on Vegas or Sell Houston buy Colo etc etc... and yet both players & Inno ignore it like thats ok ? Players do transfers world to world, none of it earned while ruining markets for the rest yet Inno do nothing because thats atm convenient and ok ? Players try and do push all their gear & resources from one old world servers to another making themselves uber sets etc and yet pretend that all ok because it suits them and us all now .? Hell i'm even seeing people trying to swop stuff from Beta to Colo now and players actually HELP them pretending like WTF ? thats ok and still Inno do nothing ? Literally watch mods in chat ignoring cross world push trades or duels or asking even for a post FF ko themselves.. I see multi accounts, event pushing, push shopping, push kos, push dueling, push world trading, push server swopping all the time, so bad sometimes I close saloon because of the spam begging.. Everyone here knows it goes on daily and many here happily engage in such while it suits them, yet find time to complain about others doing similar .. still Inno do nothing ? ...

Theres a pattern to see & message plain as day imo. Pushing in all shapes and forms while Inno gets its $$ is now just fine and pushing of everything from gear between world accounts, server accounts, game $ to duels, is utterly rife, Inno actively encourages it and so does much of the player base, from noobs to vets to mods... its become endemic.

The bible was plainly obvious since introduction & specifically made to allow FF and workers to KO themselves ,to stop their endless bleating & crying 100% ...the end... The DL dropping benefit was just an unintended loophole imo.. Best way to get old mugs players to invest in a new world is ruin their old one.. literally what an ever increasing DL was intended to encourage .. rely on players to be mugs, doing it all again and investing $ all over again, rinse repeat world after world was the ONLY point of it. ... And players did... and still are .. over and over prepared to throw literally hundreds of dollars ( or a lot more ) at a few pictures some wont ever even look at again let alone use which are obsolete even before release in some cases..

I see people posting here having the audacity to mention duel pushing while trying to peddle stuff to move from one world to another like thats perfectly fine, oblivious to the hypocrisy ... its done m8... Long ago things changed and Inno made the player base adapt to a new model. Inno and the players made this together and deserve the mess its become.. as long as $$$ keeps coming in & some players get away with almost anything Inno arnt gonna change, and why would they not milk the cow dry ? so many mugs have been feeding their business model, throwing $ at their never ending ever increasing new and sometimes OP sets model, point buying worlds were an indication yet many threw $$ at that ( to keep up ) ... etc etc Players in the main did/ have done this to themselves and accordingly the entire model has literally made those same players into daily pushers and game manipulators... nothing moral about it ofc but human nature is what it is & while theres always idiots and greedy players willing to spend whatever just to have/get the edge no matter how OP an item might be and still whine while buying 10 btw.. Inno will ofc make the most of it and human nature.

Massaging the $ player model & virtually ignoring all else has worked fine. The fools and losers are the player base not Inno in the slightest. :up:

Rant over... :'P
 

Artem124

Well-Known Member
so im seeing the achievements are completed for duels but not finished and showing me next steps
guess theres a bugg already
 

Kidd Kalypso

Well-Known Member
It's pretty definitionally not "pushing" to do something for your _own_ benefit. "Pushing" is voluntarily doing something that has a clear (non-negligible) negative impact for you in excess of reasonable measures of general good will, to provide a clear positive impact to another player.

If you are "coordinating" in the form of "do you mind if I bible duel you?" that doesn't make it pushing, it's just a courtesy to the player you are about to duel so they don't take offense at a duel report showing up, and have the opportunity to perhaps delay hopping in bed to spare you the "failed duel"

The main "pushing" issue with duels surrounds a player with a bounty agreeing with someone to to give them a kickback in exchange for a bible duel (the giving of the kickback is the "push", and the soliciting of it is it's own offense).


Actually, going by inno rules it is pushing...from the rules....

......Specifically, a player may not participate in a prearranged duel or bounty or Fort Battle or Adventure to achieve an organized outcome and provide or obtain inordinate amounts of experience/cash/items/veteran points.


As bible duelers are pushing experience upon their victims in order lower their duel levels and we all know that a bible gives no damage, it is preordained. They are in effect pushing others duel levels up.

If inno wishes to allow the pushing, at least own up to it.

As always, just my opinion. ymmv
 
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Goober Pyle

The West Team
Fort Balancing Strategist
Actually, going by inno rules it is pushing...from the rules....

......Specifically, a player may not participate in a prearranged duel or bounty or Fort Battle or Adventure to achieve an organized outcome and provide or obtain inordinate amounts of experience/cash/items/veteran points.


As bible duelers are pushing experience upon their victims in order lower their duel levels and we all know that a bible gives no damage, it is preordained. They are in effect pushing others duel levels up.

If inno wishes to allow the pushing, at least own up to it.

As always, just my opinion. ymmv

Where is the prearrangement?
Where is the organized outcome?
Where is the inordinate experience?
 

roland jacobs

Well-Known Member
When it comes to pushing, the problem is a very poorly written rule, and an even worse explanation starting with specifically and breaking out several scenarios. If you want to say specifically, BE SPECIFIC. That means no use of many ors and ands.

Part 1:

Pushing refers to an exploitative use of the game to provide experience/cash/items to other account(s).

exploitative: making use of a situation or treating others unfairly in order to gain an advantage or benefit.

If 2 chars agree to a trade, Phoebe scarf for Cortina jacket, they both got what they needed, so is it exploitation? We'll all agree it's an unfair trade, but if it completed each other's sets, now the team is stronger. Is it pushing?

Another example: I play 1 world. You play 2 worlds. I join the 2nd world just to farm products for you. That's pushing, even though I agreed to do it? It's hard to be treated unfairly when someone agrees to do something.

Part 2: (the bad example)

Specifically, a player may not participate in a prearranged duel or bounty or Fort Battle or Adventure to achieve an organized outcome and provide or obtain inordinate amounts of experience/cash/items/veteran points.

prearranged = arranged or agreed upon in advance
inordinate = unusually or disproportionately large; excessive. (note - this is very subjective)

breaking it down


Specifically, a player may not participate in a prearranged
1. duel
or
2. bounty
or
3. fort battle
or
4. adventure

to

1. achieve an organized outcome
and
2. provide or obtain inordinate amounts of experience/cash/items/veteran points.


So: A player may not participate in a prearranged duel to achieve an organized outcome and provide or obtain inordinate amounts of cash

Example1: If there is a duel, and one char doesn't know or doesn't agree to it, it's not prearranged and the rest of the sentence doesn't matter. Therefore, most bible duels are not pushing.

Second, let's say both chars duel level 150 have agreed on a duel with one char wearing a bible, however, neither char is carrying cash. They will achieve an organized outcome, but did not obtain an inordinate amount of cash because neither char was carrying cash, that would not be pushing either.

Using the word inordinate, that's another huge variable. Let's say I tell you I'm carrying $1m cash on hand, so I'll wear a bible and you duel me. You win and get a large sum of cash. However, you already have $50million in the bank. Is the couple hundred thousand you received in a duel an inordinate sum? It doesn't seem inordinate compared to your bank account.

If I duel a char, I'm at 150 and they are around the top of the duel range for me, I'll bible them on purpose so they get to a duel level that is out of my range. Then, they need to make a choice to lose levels or not duel me anymore. I gave them a lot of duel experience, but it benefited me. Is that pushing?

The issue is that inno wrote a vague rule so if the mods want to punish someone for pushing, they have almost free will to determine what is and isn't pushing, based on how they want to use inflection in a rule.
 

Dr Roth

Well-Known Member
I am very disappointed that many of the achievements arent given even though I have achieved them previously. Reaching duel level 450, do I really have to do it two times? It just seems unfair. I have reached the level once, so I should be given the achievement.
 

Thanatoss

Well-Known Member
Its actually more simple.

If pushing gives money to inno it isnt. If pushing doesnt give money to inno it is.
 

Dr Roth

Well-Known Member
I have sent a ticket to support with proof that I have reached duel level 450 but they say I have to do it again. Achievements should be given for things achieved and if I can prove it I see no reason why the achievemet isn't given. It makes absolutely no sense. Some achievements have to be done twice? That is extremely unfair to the people that have worked hard to already get them. If proof can be provided they have to be given without further actions necessary.
 

Al35ul

The West Team
Some achievements have to be done twice? That is extremely unfair to the people that have worked hard to already get them. If proof can be provided they have to be given without further actions necessary.
The achievement has not been done twice since it did not exist until yesterday when it was implemented.
 

Dr Roth

Well-Known Member
I disagree, I have reached 450 once, hence the achievement must be given. If the achievement was implemented later is of no importance. Many achievements have been given for previous feats. I have not knocked out 750 people since yesterday, but that achievements I have received as well as many others.

Why do some achievements count from the day you started the server and others from the day the achievement was implemented? I believe it is because counters where introduced for some things but not others. In our statistics there could easily be an "Maximum duel level reached", however there is not.

It is deeply unfair to treat achievements differently, even when I can show proof that I have done all the requirements specified for the particular achievement. If not you have to rename it "Reach duel level 450 after the first of February 2022". If you do not its a false achievement as many players could have actually done the requirements but not be given their reward.
 

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
Oh come on, calm down Roth, the game didn't track what duel levels you've had previously, I understand you are upset because now you can't infinitely farm duel level 150s, by purposefully losing most of your duels, if you go for it. Oh well.
 
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