Union set sale

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
I'll agree that the problem is the tower bonuses - they were intended to be in conjunction with an entire formula overhaul - and they need to be re-adjusted.

Imo, we also need all existing sets to be more available - as well as a bunch of new ones catering to the missing play-styles.
 
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Beefmeister

Well-Known Member
I'll agree that the problem is the tower bonuses - they were intended to be in conjunction with an entire formula overhaul - and they need to be re-adjusted.

Imo, we also need all existing sets to be more available - as well as a bunch of new ones catering to the missing play-styles.
i want to say this is probably the easiest solution

but i do not understand this reluctance to nerf sets that inno has...every single game does it nowadays

and with this i can cover more stuff:

Yes, we need Damagers to not miss any hits on mounted Tanks again, because that worked so well in the past.
remember well, during ifbc, without union, you did hold towers as a strategy, even if you couldn't hold it till the end.
and tanks were actually hitting then too...now they are useless
and i will get even more in detail for this: with cortina, and old tower bonuses, WITHOUT UNION ( or a nerfed version of it )...it's way more than possible to hold towers, but actually in a fair way, not the way it is now

i just feel like you keep demanding stuff for tanks - saying that tanks get scammed, that they are not being fair with tanks, only because you like playing tanks more than damagers. i hope i'm wrong about it, cuz that would mean you are not being neutral about it.

in my opinion: do nerf leadership duelers, i don't care at all...but that is not the solution



LE:
They are reluctant coz they make most of the profit from 1% of big nugget spenders which are impossible to replace with ever shrinking player base.

Tanks are scammed not coz of the gear (Cortina is almost as OP as Union) but coz of broken reward system which favors damage over dodges. They could easily balance defense and attack with slightly weaker tower bonuses. Also, adding a permanent FF chest similar to loot chest in adventures would solve the issues with attendance short term (it wouldn´t solve an issue of players quitting and no new players joining).
give this man a prize
 
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Clever Hans

Well-Known Member
but i do not understand this reluctance to nerf sets that inno has...every single game does it nowadays

i just feel like you keep demanding stuff for tanks - saying that tanks get scammed, that they are not being fair with tanks, only because you like playing tanks more than damagers. i hope i'm wrong about it, but that would mean you are not being neutral about it.

in my opinion: do nerf leadership duelers, i don't care at all...but that is not the solution
They are reluctant coz they make most of the profit from 1% of big nugget spenders which are impossible to replace with ever shrinking player base.

Tanks are scammed not coz of the gear (Cortina is almost as OP as Union) but coz of broken reward system which favors damage over dodges. They could easily balance defense and attack with slightly weaker tower bonuses. Also, adding a permanent FF chest similar to loot chest in adventures would solve the issues with attendance short term (it wouldn´t solve an issue of players quitting and no new players joining).
 

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
remember well, during ifbc, without union, you did hold towers as a strategy, even if you couldn't hold it till the end.
If I remember correctly, the winning defence strategies in the IFBC bailed towers and held blinds, and hoped that an adventurer didn't ghost fail for 12k.
Even without Union Officer, it was a damage-fest.

Everything that we are dealing with in forts now is directly related to how bad defending was during that competition.
I've been re-reading through here: https://forum.events.the-west.net/index.php?threads/ifbc3.52414/
 

RaiderTr

Well-Known Member
%95-99 Attacker victory.

"Best" attacking strategy being, having 30 something duelers were saying enough.
 

Beefmeister

Well-Known Member
If I remember correctly, the winning defence strategies in the IFBC bailed towers and held blinds, and hoped that an adventurer didn't ghost fail for 12k.
Even without Union Officer, it was a damage-fest.
true, but the holding towers tactic was used a lot during the tournament. i don't remember details, how they used the tactic, every single team had a different roster. and yes, it was a damage fest

the current defense set is not livingston. and while captain is indeed more powerful than murrieta, cortina is worlds better than livi.

those are my toons with lv0 murrieta and lv0 captain, both have murrieta horse and guns, with the gun upgraded - lv 146

https://prnt.sc/1j2nrhh - murrieta
https://prnt.sc/1j2o46p - captain

if you can provide livingston horse set, clothes+ zapata vs let's say cortina full set...that would be great
although i think the difference is huge
 

Hr.Nyborg

Ex-Team Member
Oprah-You-Get-A.jpg

You get a union set, and you get a union set - EVERY GETS A UUUNNNIIOOOOOONNNN WUHUUU

Eh or not :-D
Haaa got you going there for a second. Nah sorry, this is sadly in no way at all something i can control. Only the higher power Innogames, would be able to do that. And it does not sound like it is any time soon.

So thanks for the message, but sorry.
 

Joe Kidd

Well-Known Member
So basically what you want you and your colleagues to have a consistent mean damage of 45K or so on attacks as well?

https://prntscr.com/1j39nhr

That's from E Z P Z on August 3rd. VERY typical for your team on defense.

I'm not trying to be cheeky here because I really want to understand how this can be done and have tanks be in any way relevant or functional.

What is the functional goal you are after? A default 60% hit rate for duelers/damagers that can go up to 75% with pay-to-win features?

What dodge rate should tanks have in return on defense? What HP base should they have? My adventurer tank on Houston has gotten blasted for 10K damage in one round in tower defense due to "bad luck" recently.

It seems in groups Dueler/Damagers are OP on attack. The "opposition" in Houston shows up consistenty with 15-19 duelers on attack. They almost always win in a 40 v 40 (roughly speaking) battle.

Finally, two preemptive comments: Yes I don't have Spirit Gear but hope to get it, and no please do not mention "you need a different build" since probably 99% of The West FF community agrees that there's only one build that works for Adventurer tanks.
 

OlliePie

Active Member
View attachment 2547

You get a union set, and you get a union set - EVERY GETS A UUUNNNIIOOOOOONNNN WUHUUU

Eh or not :-D
Haaa got you going there for a second. Nah sorry, this is sadly in no way at all something i can control. Only the higher power Innogames, would be able to do that. And it does not sound like it is any time soon.

So thanks for the message, but sorry.
Dear Mr. Hr.Nyborg,
Thank you for your prompt reply much appreciated,
Aside from the Union Set, I have a particular interest in animal sets.
Could you see your way to making all animals available (at cost) to me please.
Once again thank you for your kind consideration in this matter.
Yours Sincerely
OlliePie
 

Beefmeister

Well-Known Member
So basically what you want you and your colleagues to have a consistent mean damage of 45K or so on attacks as well?

https://prntscr.com/1j39nhr

That's from E Z P Z on August 3rd. VERY typical for your team on defense.

I'm not trying to be cheeky here because I really want to understand how this can be done and have tanks be in any way relevant or functional.

What is the functional goal you are after? A default 60% hit rate for duelers/damagers that can go up to 75% with pay-to-win features?

What dodge rate should tanks have in return on defense? What HP base should they have? My adventurer tank on Houston has gotten blasted for 10K damage in one round in tower defense due to "bad luck" recently.

It seems in groups Dueler/Damagers are OP on attack. The "opposition" in Houston shows up consistenty with 15-19 duelers on attack. They almost always win in a 40 v 40 (roughly speaking) battle.

Finally, two preemptive comments: Yes I don't have Spirit Gear but hope to get it, and no please do not mention "you need a different build" since probably 99% of The West FF community agrees that there's only one build that works for Adventurer tanks.
yes, if you read everything i said in this topic, that damage i dealt there was because of a high amount of crits and the hit rate is because of the tower bonus. on ground i have 153 attack, on walls i have around 166. if attackers are mounted on towers and i shoot from the ground, the hit rate and missed shots woulda been the other way around, like they are on attack. it's all situational.

very typical of your team too, only you have all the unioners on the server. me, luka and votca deal the highest damage out of the f2p players...only i am not f2p. i have deputy. the other 2 indeed are f2p.

it's hard to speak in numbers. what i am looking for is for everyone hitting in attack, including soldiers and advents, with the damagers being default damagers? i don't see how else this game is supposed to work.
that would mean union being nerfed slightly a bit closer to what f2p sets are, and either tower bonuses or cortina being nerfed, so defenses can actually bail so attacks have a chance.

if you want a real answer to this...i already wrote 30 pages here, i will actually make an effort and find the answer for your questions. although without properly testing and simulating battles, it is basically impossible. trust me when i say this, i am one of the people that really care about how this game works. i would actually test this on my free time, if i had the tools.

by now you can't speak of "group damagers" anymore. it is pretty obvious by now that the leadership duelers are the most played characters on this game, because they worked in the past meta. they do work now too, in defense. in attack no class works, so that was what i said in this topic all along.

and to answer your last comment, to be honest...i do not know which build works for tanks in defense. workers tell me full cortina is better than cortina+spirit in defense, while they use cortina+spirit in attack....i do not know the reason behind it, it's just what they told me and they told me they tested it, although for me....i just don't see how is that possible. for advents, imo...you have to squeeze as much hp as you can get with a fair amount of resistance and be prem to ghost. otherwise advents are unplayable.

PS: I am still waiting for an answer to the IFBC livingston + zapata combination and full cortina set. you can see with a clear eye that there is a 25 resistance difference only from the bonuses (without upgrades) + the 29.5 defense bonus of cortina. not even counting the extra traps, dodging, hp. so it seems pretty much obvious that the gear differences are way more in favor of tanks as they are now than the meta sets for IFBC. test that now, but don't tell me captain is a viable set again, please.
 
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RaiderTr

Well-Known Member
Captain clothing set races with Union's, numbers don't lie.

Weapon set being meh doesn't say much because there are various better options. (Yes, not as OP as Union's)
 

Beefmeister

Well-Known Member
hehe, this is honestly hilarious
i presented you all those arguments and all you tell me is that captain clothes are racing with union's...not that cortina has over 50 more defense than livingston. i want to see you dealing 40k damage in those colorado attacks without union, lulu. last time i did that in a medium was 2 months ago...and trust me, you're not even close :lol:

what's even worse, is that people actually consider what you have to say, even if wrong.

nothing less expected though..this was an eye opening experience for me.
enjoy your game


it was hypothetical, you couldn't with any class at all
 

Beefmeister

Well-Known Member
water under the bridge for me, if you check last attacks there's barely anyone passing more than 35k with f2p gear
one exception here and there...i didn't know you were nisa though :lol:
 

lulumcnoob

Well-Known Member
water under the bridge for me, if you check last attacks there's barely anyone passing more than 35k with f2p gear
one exception here and there...i didn't know you were nisa though :lol:
Do you mean the last attacks as in the small battles, or the terrible ratios of attackers:defenders, or do you mean going back to when sides were even?

You asked to see 40k in attack without union - I don't have;
1) an appropriate lvl 150 dueller class on Colorado
or
2) Captain's set
to personally show you me doing it, I am a tanky advent, you do know how character classes work?

but anyway, here's a medium one, keep telling us how you can't play with Captain's set.
 

Goober Pyle

Well-Known Member
If we want to fix the situation with no changes to existing sets or game mechanics and just with new sets then lulu is right -- we need attackers of each basic playstyle to do more damage, particularly we need more hits to break through the combined tower defense bonus and resistance of existing gear used on defense.

The simplest solution may be for the next Free tombola GUN set to have zero (or negative) traps and leadership but massive amounts of hiding, aim, raw damage, and HP and maybe some resist and attack -- i.e. a gun that won't get much if any productive use on defense, nor be epecially useful for damagers on attack, but would be the go to gun for tanks and noobs on attack to actually do some damage without being pure cannon fodder.


Together with constantly tweaking the Attack/Defense caps to keep bothe defenses and attacks winnable as sets (and any other changes) come into play we could eventually achieve the goal of competitive FFs with nominally equal numbers
 

Hr.Nyborg

Ex-Team Member
Dear Mr. Hr.Nyborg,
Thank you for your prompt reply much appreciated,
Aside from the Union Set, I have a particular interest in animal sets.
Could you see your way to making all animals available (at cost) to me please.
Once again thank you for your kind consideration in this matter.
Yours Sincerely
OlliePie
Again i will gladly suggest this, but i can not promise anything :)