Rejected Trading and the push rule

[DeletedUser28464]

markets in online games

From my experience in markets from online games, there are always players that will find a way to abuse it. The only way to minimize abuse is to have the computer itself control and set the prices.
Human ingenuity is beyond imagination when it comes to scamming gold.
That's why the law books are so thick.

When it comes to gold
When under human control
There are always some
To cash up free sums

Let's keep it as is, a change might turn out to be worst than the abuses we currently have with the system.
Pedro

 

[DeletedUser29035]

But it can't stay like this! no one knows what's o.k. and whats not.. need at least some new rule!

 

[DeletedUser]

But it can't stay like this! no one knows what's o.k. and whats not.. need at least some new rule!

Of course it can stay like this, and if you don't know what is it about, there is this forum and there is support. So you may ask for any details that bother you.

 

[DeletedUser]

The question is and will remain to be, what can you sell a single normal item for that's acceptable and not in violation of the push rules? As far as I can tell, no-one has ever answered that satisfactorily, which leads to confusion, which led to this original post.

I mentioned in my original post that this wasn't going to completely stop trade abuse but is worth doing for the various reasons noted: reduced work for the admins (maybe? Still not heard anything on that side) and clear, rule enforced limits for players on what they can market sell items for.

 

[DeletedUser]

SO for example.If i own pure BUILDERs town and would like to sell our skills for money trough market.I can`t do it,cuz i`ll be banneg.I will seel grey ragged rags for 50k and i`ll get ban for push trading.But i sell my own town skills and guys will build town.
Same if anyone want but FORT FIGHTERS town players to get some fort.What again how they will pay?
This rule is

 

[DeletedUser]

I think they have already incompletely intitiated this rule....

To stop people from "giving" Items away they enforced a minimum.....

"The items sales price is lower than the retail price"

What they forgot was how to stop people from giving money away (at least patially stop the abuse)

"The Items sales price is higher than the foreign Retail price"

I really dont see any difference between the one they have and the one they need. They are both push rules, and should be followed.

 

[DeletedUser22575]

Helstromm actually covered this rule pretty well here on the way it worked.

http://forum.the-west.net/showpost.php?p=522231&postcount=62

Another good point brought up was forts. With the market and the traveling trader in new worlds there is not going to be the demand for shopping passes there was were.

It was common for towns to rush build shops, charge shopping passes and then use that money to build forts with.

The better their shops the earlier in the game the more demand for shopping passes the more money they made, the faster their forts could progress.

Where do you expect them to gain the revenue for that at now.

If someone wants to buy an item from their shop early in the game, put it on the market for a reasonable price that exceeds the shop max price and some one else wants to buy it there is not anything wrong with that. They can then donate that money to their town treasury to use for forts.

Selling something for 5x or 6x to a player who needs it does not seem to me to be either an inordinate or unreasonable price. Selling something from a shop for 50x is. Its pretty simple.

Besides that, it is the moderates job to handle this and determine what is excessive and what is not. Helstromm made that pretty clear I think, and this is just a way to attempt to circumvent that.

 

[DeletedUser]

TJ: It seems to me what Hellstromm did in that post is to do what any self respecting game mod would have to do in their situation and give high level principles. And those principles will still stand regardless of the outcome of this post.

You say '5x or 6x is ok... 50x is not, pretty simple'. Except it's not. Where do you draw the line? Is 49x cheating? 48? That's the sort of speculation that no one wants to get drawn into, and that's explicitly noted in that post. So get me right, this has nothing to do with not trusting the mods, or speculating on what people can get away with, circumventing the rules or anything like it. Because, as has been said various times, even with this in place people can still cheat and be banned. What it will do is provide a simple, clear cut rule as to what you can sell a single item for and maybe actually make life easier for players and mods alike.

As for gaining revenue... well, there's adventuring, bounty hunting, duelling, working ordinary jobs... and you can still make money from trading. My point about 4x is, I believe, still valid because you can always buy from foreign towns at no more inconvenience than via trade.

 

[DeletedUser]

They should have just made it no more than foreign price after all whos gonna pay more at market for something over foreign price ? no one but pushers or new players not realising I guess.
They should just make it simple

 

[Deleted User - 1278415]

They should have just made it no more than foreign price after all whos gonna pay more at market for something over foreign price ? no one but pushers or new players not realising I guess.
They should just make it simple

lol I paid more today... I needed the indian shirt of the set so I could move faster so i paid more than it was worth because no one else was selling it cheaper and I didn't want to go to another town. Then I became even lazier... and I paid to have it sent to me and then i sped along my way to the next battle.
:laugh:

 

[DeletedUser]

lol I paid more today... I needed the indian shirt of the set so I could move faster so i paid more than it was worth because no one else was selling it cheaper and I didn't want to go to another town. Then I became even lazier... and I paid to have it sent to me and then i sped along my way to the next battle.
:laugh:

But you didn't pay more than the foreign price did you? 30k? You could walk over to the town and buy it from there shop for that much, nobody legitimately playing should pay more than 4x the price....

 

[Deleted User - 1278415]

ohh 4x the price... no I didnt do that.

I paid a lot over the town member price but not 4x.

duh long day here.

 

[DeletedUser]

It's a monday

That's alright, I didn't think so because nobody in there right mind would pay more than 4x the price. That is the whole point, it wont stop money pushers, but at least would make it Very Clear that you are not allowed to sell an everyday item as a means to transfer money. Without restricting legitimate players....

I'm sure town-less folk love the market. I doubt they even pay 4x the price anymore.

 

[Deleted User - 1278415]

yea from a mod standpoint Im all for capping items that can be sold in the market that could be found in a store already.

as for special items like sleephead, quest products and named items... thats going to be the challenge.

 

[DeletedUser]

Nope, If there would be a cap on things not sold in stores, then I would vote no for this idea....

Only cap Items that are sold in stores, the rest are up to the in-game mods to keep an eye on, but at least it makes there job a little easier.

 

[DeletedUser]

Ok, so I hope that's all cleared up. I honestly don't think this will actually change the way most people would trade: lots of items in the market go for more than the 'home town' price, but rarely as much as the foreign town price. What it would to is stop you selling grey rags for more than $8.

 

[DeletedUser22575]

I am still opposed to this for two major reason.

The market was established with a minimum price to allow players to establish supply and demand no matter if it is a "town item" or special item.

The way the market is right now a player can decide for himself what he wants for the item no matter where it came from and attempt to sell it. Other players can decide for them selves if they want to pay that for it.

As a whole players will determine the value of the item based on supply and demand.

As Good Feather said in another post.

Well with capping it your altering the supply and demand... capping it will cause people to use it less I'd think.. and its a feature that got heavily used the first few days it came out, but I think now its only used casually by those that have the money for it or feel they are being bullied.

Now as for the market caps that is something that gets used heavily and daily by lots of players, and has loopholes that requires tools to alert us to potential trades that violate trade rules.. so Im all for a cap on the market... just not on the bounty hunters.

To encourage it you need to say 5th poster is free up to the average amount you posted on the previous 4 posters lol

A cap alters any supply and demand no matter if you are talking about bounties or the market. Capping prices take the ability away from players to establish supply and demand through the market and establish prices for items and turns the market into just another check the box. That was not what the market was designed for.

The 2nd reason I am going to oppose this is because we have had one player make at least three post stating that anyone who opposes this must be "pushing cash", is "cheating", or is not a "legitimate player" if they oppose this.

We don't have a lot of democratic process in the forums, it essentially consists of players being able to state their opinion or vote based on the way they feel about issues.

But every player, no matter if it is their first post or their 5,000 post should be able to participate in our little democratic process without anyone trying to intimidate them from doing so by claiming they are a "cheat" for having an opposing opinion.

To quote Good Feather again...

"Now as for the market caps that is something that gets used heavily and daily by lots of players, and has loopholes that requires tools to alert us to potential trades that violate trade rules.."

If it is a legitimate trade no matter the item no matter if 4x cost or 6x cost price it will go through. If not you will get busted and pay the price.

The market has tools in place to handle cheating. Lets let the mods do their job under the present system and quit accusing others of "cheating" because they have a different opinion than yours and stop trying to intimidate them from participating in our system.

A NO to this idea.

 

[DeletedUser]

As far as supply and Demand is concerned; In the west, on items that are sold in shops there is an INFINITE supply and a FINITE demand, therefore the prices should be driven down, well below the intended cap. I'm not a market guru, but I know how supply and demand work.The Items that the proposed cap would affect, nobody has a monopoly on, they are readily available to anyone, for a maximum of 4x town member price.

As far as me calling others cheaters, I understand why you think that. I do Encourage everyone to state their opinion. But anyone who tries to sell me a cup salt water, with no delivery, for even twice as much as everyone else, is obviously trying to run a scam. That is just My oppinion

 

[DeletedUser]

Right, let's try to avoid labeling people as cheats during this discussion. It is counterproductive. Thanks. ~Hellstromm, evil cm

Let's keep to the points of this discussion, which is that the cap is being recommended only for "store-bought" items and possibly easy-to-get job products.

( I would also like to point out that this exact same proposal was first posed by Aguidam in the Minor Ideas section, and even earlier in Saloon discussions by other players, so let's give due/blame accordingly, shall we?)

 

[DeletedUser]

I'm still not sure everyone's clear on how this would work and, hopefully not surprisingly, I agree with Tuttle in that 'As a whole players will determine the value of the item based on supply and demand.'

What does this mean in a 'for example?'? Well, take a grey slouch hat. Sale price: 110, Home town purchase price: 220, Foreign town purchase price (4x): 880. Current examples of market prices in Briscoe and Arizona: buy now at 110-300.

Or Brown top hat: Sale price 1350, Home town purchase: 2700, foreign town purchase (4X): 10400. Market examples: buy now at 3350-4999.

Or at the top end: Fancy dress coat: sale 3600, home purchase: 7200, foreign (4x): 28800. Buy now in market: 8000-10000.

Keep going with those items you can buy in town and you'll see that no-one is selling items that can be store bought for anything like the 4x foreign town price.

Trojon's point that this has no impact on supply and demand is valid and well made. And my initial post and subsequent clarifiers had, I thought, made it clear that I believe anyone trying to sell store bought items for more than that 4x foreign town price (e.g. a grey slouch for more than 880, Brown top for more than 10400 and fancy dree coat for more than 28800) is immediately in violation of the push rule and the market shouldn't allow that. And that's my opinion.

Good Feather notes that currently these things require tools to alert them to potential abuse. As I've said before, this might just make their work somewhat less in this area. And as Good Feather also wrote: 'Im all for capping items that can be sold in the market that could be found in a store already.' To me it's a no brainer, there's simply no reason not to.