if i had to pick up a bible id have to wear gloves as with any other book of lies
God hates sin. He requires perfection. Obviously no one is perfect. Christ lived a perfect life and He paid for any sins we have committed, IF you accept that gift. His death was a victory for us all. He did it because He loves us and wants us to spend eternity with Him. It is your choice.
I love how people here seem to only give their opinion but no evidence to support their view or logical argumentation. Whether you believe in God or not has no effect on reality, if he is real, he is real whether you like him or not and vice a versa. So let me be the first to actually make a logical argument, yes im one of those cooks who believe the bible as God's infallible word. allow me to argue first for the existence of God and then the bible.
I love how most atheistic argumentation states that "if the God of the bible exist he is evil and cruel because he allows for the existence of pain suffering and death", and yet if you are a naturalistic atheist you have no claim on whether something is good or not. Let me explain, if we are the result of the coincidental and "by chance" development of comic material, what makes you worth anything more than a rock? What gives you value? Using your world view we have no obligation to place value on anyone because we are all blobs of chance bumping together with no apparent reason to exist. Further more where does your view of good and evil come from? As a Christian the bible teaches me that humans were created in the image of God and were given a conscience to see what according to God is right and wrong, It is by this that i can claim morality, God is my standard of good and evil. What claim does an atheist have on a cannibal who lives in the rain forest and eats young woman? I can... because I have a standard. You dont.
"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” Richard Dawkings (athiest)
The bible is historically the most attested and accurate historical text in THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE ever, no other historical text has a more reliable historical manuscript tradition, and is so consistent with ancient history. (go research it) Not only is it reliable according to history and its own history, but it is also logically consistent and coherent. (not to mention the hundreds of prophecies that came true and is seen in actual history) How many of you have actually read the bible to understand and not to make fun? This is expected because the bible teaches :
“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
“None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
People are by nature enemies of the light and love their darkness, unless they are saved they will stay in their darkness. Prove me right by reacting with mocking and irrationality... atleast you are consistent with my world view That's how you guys handle debates
Furthermore the bible teaches that all man has fallen short of God's standard, and just as a just judge in a court cannot let a criminal free, so God cannot let us go without punishment. Think about it... if a judge would let a rapist go without justice... he would be a bad judge right? God is the perfect Judge. Now you might say "but i did nothing bad enough to go to hell", the bible teaches that God is the creator, sustainer and ruler of the universe. You have broken His law, and thus are guilty. What will happen if you wrong a friend ? not much right? If you attack an officer? You probably would go to jail or have to pay a hefty fine. What happens to you when you hit kim jong un? You would be killed right? You see the higher the authority and importance of a person the more severe the punishment for the same crime. We are speaking about God now... and wronging an infinite being requires an infinite punishment. That is why Christ, who was God, had to step into creation. Only God is infinite, and thus only god could pay for an infinite penalty. Christ died on our behalf, taking our punishment reconciling us to God. All that you need to do is turn away from darkness and trust in His sacrifice. This is the center of Christianity, not God as a monster, but rather a righteous and just God, stepping into creation, dieing on behalf of his enemies, to save creatures who deserve only punishment. THAT is love.
"In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.” Richard Dawkings
....What happens to you when you hit kim jong un? You would be killed right?You see the higher the authority and importance of a person the more severe the punishment for the same crime. We are speaking about God now...
wronging an infinite being requires an infinite punishment.
(not to mention the hundreds of prophecies that came true and is seen in actual history)
Let me explain, if we are the result of the coincidental and "by chance" development of comic material, what makes you worth anything more than a rock? What gives you value?
and yet if you are a naturalistic atheist you have no claim on whether something is good or not.
Well, well - the debate and discussion forum is alive and kicking. I used to love this forum when I was active half a decade ago.
That passage you quoted by Dawkins is actually very poignant, and deep. It strips humans utterly of any certainty, it is like telling a 5-year old kid that his parents do not exist and that he really is alone and is on his own in the world. It's a scary thought for humans, and that is why so many people choose to believe there is a higher being "watching over them.'' But what Dawkins said is true. When most people think of the progress of humanity, they think along these lines
But in reality, we are here
In the grand cosmic scale of things, we are fresh arrivals. We have just emerged into consciousness. We still have a long way to go. We will never stop evolving, and one of the most important things is to realize that we really are on our own, and nothing in the universe cares for us. That is how we will grow further.
I would much rather live in a coldly indifferent universe than in a universe run by a megalomaniac. Yes, that is correct - a person who wants to run the whole universe, it's billions of galaxies and unknowable numbers of sentient species is an INSANELY power hungry being.
Exactly my point. From what I understood from that passage, you are basically implying that your god is a much more vindictive and awful person than Kim Jong Un. It is downright terrifying that you are willing to believe that such an entity exists and you are happy to support such actions.
If someone hit a truly wise person, they won't hit back or mindlessly punish that person. They will try to understand why that happened and try to resolve the issues leading to the hatred in the first place. Like Gandhi said, "an eye for an eye makes the world blind". I would expect a "higher" being, something that is more powerful and more evolved than us to have a much higher moral standard than we do. That means such a being would be appalled at the thought of causing intelligent beings any sort of harm just because they thought differently, just like any sane person today would be appalled at hitting someone who disagreed with them, leave alone punish them for eternity.
How can anyone possibly wrong an "infinite being"? - if something is powerful enough to create a whole universe, how could we even manage to offend such a being? - I will use an analogy here. There exists an ant colony somewhere in the mid-western United States, beside a highway. An ant in the colony claims that there is no reason to pray to humans and that we are destructive beings.
Would anyone even notice that ant said that? - even if we did, would we drive down there and squash the anthill as "punishment"? - would we even bother looking for the single ant that said it and then build an ant-hell, keep the ant alive there along with all the trillions of other "treasonous ants" to be punished for eternity?
All that sounds absurd, and what you said is similarly absurd. It's also deeply representative of human arrogance - that we think we actually matter to such higher beings. We don't. Those "infinite beings", if they exist, will have more important things to do and would not even care what we think about them, like you won't care what an ant - or a bacterium - thinks of us.
It's easy to make a prophecy. Just make the wording purposefully vague and covering a wide area and time range. For example someone could make a prophecy, "A great calamity will fall on the united states in the next century". Eventually, a hurricane hits New Orleans and then you can say "look, that prediction came true". No, it doesn't mean anything at all.
That's an easy question. Sentience. As a species, humans have the ability to think and feel. We can create, love, feel joy, express kindness, be creative and a million other things. A rock most definitely cannot do all of those things.
So, basically, by implication, you are saying that if some people walk into an atheist's house, murder her husband and children, burn down her house and throw her on the streets, that atheist has no right to say the people who did those things to her were evil?
If someone says they don't believe that Harry Potter exists, would you go and say they have no claim on whether something is good or not? - that's how absurd your statement sounds. Just like Harry Potter was a book written by a human author drawing on her creativity and ideas, the Bible is a work of literature that was written by a human, many many years ago.
Many times in your post, you keep on saying that atheists have no scope of ethics and we cannot feel or distinguish from good and evil. That is completely wrong and a deeply misguided thing to say. As I mentioned before, what gives each of us humans value is sentience. When I look at another person, regardless of their race, color, creed or sex, I know they are human. I know they are unique, that within them, they love someone deeply, have many hopes and dreams for the future, hold numerous memories of joy and happiness. I believe that everyone in the world is capable of kindness and love, most of us don't always express it, but we are capable of it, and that's what matters. I most definitely don't need to believe in some book to understand the immense value of human life.
The way you and me understand that is very different. My understanding is that there's no good or evil in nature. If an earthquake happens, it's not good or evil, if a star explodes somewhere in the galaxy, it's not good or evil either. Perceptions of human mortality is a completely different topic - you shouldn't unnecessarily conflate the two.
They don't understand their own world view and it's implications)
No. It's the other way around. You don't understand the thinking of most atheists and rationalists. It's a fallacy to equate your lack of understanding of a subject to other people's ignorance. The problem here is that your beliefs go in one direction and atheists goes in another. Due to that fact alone, our arguments won't make much sense to the other.
And you completely misunderstand my point lol. That is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that atheists are completely inconsistent with their world view (mentioned above), they borrow from the Christian world view and make crazy truth claims (like morality and reason), claiming value for humanity because they were also created in God's image (once again inconsistent). Just think about it.
What makes you think that we "borrow" from the Christian world? - what about the other religions out there? - Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism and a thousand other religions? - in all honesty, would you say those religions are the wrong path and all the people who believe in them will go to hell?
Even Christianity is not "consistent" in it's beliefs. You have Catholics, Protestants, Eastern Orthodox...basically different groups within the same religion that have a different belief systems. So, it would not be correct to claim your religion is more "consistent" in morality than atheists. Hell, all human beings, regardless of religious orientation have different belief systems. To try to claim only one series of beliefs is true is asking for catastrophe to occur. Allow me to talk about Donald Trump. This man has an extremely dubious moral record and has committed many things Christians would consider "sin". But, pretty much all of America's Evangelicals support him. How do you explain the inconistient moral standards of American Christians here?
With that in mind, you absolutely have no right to claim people who follow your religion have any sort of consistent morals.
Now for the ant analogy... (so bad) our relationship with God is not like ants and humans.
It's one of the best analogies I've heard - you just don't fully comprehend it.
From an ant's perception, we are like gods. Our power appears infinite, and we can do things the ant cannot even imagine possible. The universe to an ant is simply a small field around the ant hill, the ant is incapable of thinking of what lies beyond the field or even that stars exist. In a similar sense, humans are like that, we live within a limited perception of reality, and our brains aren't evolved yet to grasp the more complex things.
It's completely possible this universe were created by an advanced alien species with superior technology to ours. This universe could be a simulation, created in the garage of some being called "Jeff". You would consider such beings as "gods". But rest of us rationalists just see them for what they are - sapient beings, who are simply more evolved than we are at present.
You limit God to your finite pitiful conceptions and yet, that makes no impression on him. Again what you believe does not change reality. You are either right or wrong, what you want is irrelevant.
Actually, I can say EXACTLY the same thing about your beliefs. That your conception of "god" is pitiful, narrow and very unimaginative. Compared to science, I find religion very one-dimensional, dull and boring. I also can say that whether or not you believe in god doesn't matter. The universe will stay coldly indifferent regardless of whatever one of Earth's religions you follow.
I have spent many years as a militant atheist, thinking myself clever and right, but in my pursuit to show Christians how pitiful illogical their worldview is (thus my understanding of the atheistic worldview and being so well read in it's philosophy), I released how inconstant I was and God opened my eyes to the truth. I hope He does the same to you. (I say with the utmost love, I do not want you to end up where you are headed) I would ask you to be fair, and read up on my world view before making accusations, because then you actually argue against a worldview that you dont even understand, that makes no sense.
I grew up in a religious family, and through my growing years, I held a deep interest in science. As I read more and more about both - science and religion, I found it increasingly difficult to reconcile the two. I felt rather uncomfortable, and in my head, I built all sorts of inconsistent theories to justify the existence of both. But, ultimately I finally understood and my mind was clearer than it has been.
To me, complete rational logic tells me to be atheist about all of the Earth’s religions and utterly agnostic about the nature of our existence or the possible existence of a higher being. I don’t arrive there via any form of faith, just by logic.
There are many other points you've raised in your post that I wanted to address, but I've decided against it, mostly because, even if i tried my best and spent days composing an excellent answer, you wouldn't understand and appreciate the way I think. To be honest, if believing in religion gives you peace, that's absolutely fine. In my life, I have walked a different path and I have absolutely no regrets in the path I choose and I'm perfectly happy. The vast majority of atheists have no problems in people following religion peacefully. Usually the problems only start where other people's belief in religion starts to directly affect or harm other individuals. If we could all just believe in what we want to believe without doing harm, the world would be a better place.
Perhaps the most troubling argument I hear repeated by religious people. If you one day woke up and learned god didn't exist, is your plan to start raping and murdering people? Of course it isn't, and I'm not gonna join you in projecting what I think the other side believes in because it's obviously not the case. Human morality is something that has developed over time and even just looking at the present we can see differences in morality dependant on culture, upbringing, experiences, etc. My point is that nobody, religious or otherwise, requires a sky man to tell them not to kill or rape. It's something most of us are taught and abide by regardless of religious beliefs.Further more where does your view of good and evil come from? As a Christian the bible teaches me that humans were created in the image of God and were given a conscience to see what according to God is right and wrong, It is by this that i can claim morality, God is my standard of good and evil
Laughably incorrect. Claims like this are why atheists ridicule theists. It is a book of purported wizardry and magic that's about as accurate as Harry Potter. First testament is almost entirely fiction and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't actually believe rivers of blood and tales of a zookeeper's boat are accurate historical records. The New Testament has some facts of locations and figures, but even most Christians are willing to concede that the majority of the stories are to be followed for their morals and not looked at as a historical record.The bible is historically the most attested and accurate historical text in THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE ever, no other historical text has a more reliable historical manuscript tradition, and is so consistent with ancient history. (go research it) Not only is it reliable according to history and its own history, but it is also logically consistent and coherent.