Rules Revisions - Discussion thread

DeletedUser

Haven't read old rules a while, but everything in new rules is pretty much usual except i think rule against rigging adventures has been added. Seems ok to me.
 

DeletedUser15368

§3) Sharing Means of Connection
Da Twista said:
Players, knowingly, sharing an Internet connection and/or a device and operating accounts on the same world may not interact with each other within the game (be it, but not limited to dueling).
However:
Da Twista said:
It is allowed:
to join the same Town and/or Alliance.
to participate in the same Fort Battle or Adventure.
to trade with each other.
to use the bank transfer feature to transfer in-game cash to each other.

I think this could be worded better, as it states that you cannot interact with each other ingame, and then lists a bunch of things you can do to interact with each other ingame.

Da Twista said:
It is not permitted for players sharing a means of connection to interact with the same third party (be it, but not limited to dueling) after at least 12 hours has passed between the actions.
If players sharing a means of connection are abiding by all of the rules concerning them, isn't it unreasonable to assume they will be aware of every 3rd party the other has interacted with in the last 12 hours? They are expected to be aware of every duel that the other has taken part in, or every trade, etc?

§4) Code of Conduct
Da Twista said:
It is forbidden:
to violate or harm other players physically or mentally.
to publish any in-game support correspondences provided by the team on a public domain.
Wat, if I harm a player physically, it's a matter for the police, not the game's admins. If I can't publish support correspondences, they can't be held accountable for their incompetence/breaking of policy when appropriate, which may or may not have been an issue in recent weeks...

§5) Pushing
Da Twista said:
Specifically, a player may not participate in a prearranged duel or bounty
Is KOing yourself for duel protection, or to get rid of a bounty forbidden now? That was always fairly ambiguous in the previous rules, perhaps we can have more clarity now.

Da Twista said:
or Fort Battle
Can we still suicide for extra event currency during tombolas, or do we risk breaking the rules if we die on purpose?

§7) Bots, Scripts, Macros and Proxies
Da Twista said:
The use of proxies and other ways of concealing the connection between player and servers is forbidden, nevertheless players in special cases may apply for an exemption.

I can understand the obvious reasons as to why proxies were banned in the context of this game, but I think it's quite careless in the modern world, where everything people do online, in some parts of the world, is monitored, manipulated and sold by their own governments or ISPs. The United States and United Kingdom don't exactly have it as bad as places like Russia, China, Turkey etc, but a lot of people are very worried about their rights concerning privacy online, It's not very "Innovative" to be banning one of the few protections people have regarding this.

What exactly are the criteria for "special cases" that may be exempt?

§8) Buying and Sales
Da Twista said:
It is not allowed to (...) gift accounts
Meh. Players quit all the time, some of them have spent inordinate amounts of money on their characters, and they aren't allowed to gift that to a friend anymore, what a waste. If the new player changes the email and password, there should be no problem?


In conclusion, a lot of the changes were unnecessary/damaging/out-of-touch, but I have only mentioned those. Overall, it's pretty sensible, even if the sensible parts are the ones that weren't changed much.
 

Apelatia

Well-Known Member
If I can't publish support correspondences, they can't be held accountable for their incompetence/breaking of policy when appropriate, which may or may not have been an issue in recent weeks...
If you suspect that a member of the support team has broken a policy or is incompetent, you can submit a ticket and the Community Manager will investigate it thoroughly. Publishing a support reply publicly is not necessary for the person(s) to be held accountable. Rest assured that if you report an issue, it will be dealt with appropriately.
 

DeletedUser8627

I think this could be worded better, as it states that you cannot interact with each other ingame, and then lists a bunch of things you can do to interact with each other ingame.

One of the main issues with this revision is to get all language servers the same regards to the rules. While some of the rules were allowed on some markets, they weren't on others. To try and accommodate everyone, the rules have been written in such a way that allows for some markets to disallow certain aspects that they previously did while other markets can still be lenient.

If players sharing a means of connection are abiding by all of the rules concerning them, isn't it unreasonable to assume they will be aware of every 3rd party the other has interacted with in the last 12 hours? They are expected to be aware of every duel that the other has taken part in, or every trade, etc?

This is mainly directed to those that plan on cheating. If two players are on the same connection and playing together which usually is the case, we have had problems in the past where they have discussed co-ordinating among themselves.

But accidents do happen, I am well aware of this. This is why every report we do receive, we check it thoroughly before any action is taken. Usually in such cases, we just send out a warning making a player aware of a violation instead of outright banning them.

Wat, if I harm a player physically, it's a matter for the police, not the game's admins. If I can't publish support correspondences, they can't be held accountable for their incompetence/breaking of policy when appropriate, which may or may not have been an issue in recent weeks...

Due to some cases where players have taken this game into the real world, InnoGames insists that it be mentioned in the rules. If players are aware of a rule like this, they will report it to us and we can advise them on what steps to take legally.

Is KOing yourself for duel protection, or to get rid of a bounty forbidden now? That was always fairly ambiguous in the previous rules, perhaps we can have more clarity now.

KOing yourself has never been against the rules if you decide to select a random player and duel them. Only once two players have agreed upon an outcome to lose a bounty (Which we would see as transferring the cash over to another player) would we consider it a push.

I can understand the obvious reasons as to why proxies were banned in the context of this game, but I think it's quite careless in the modern world, where everything people do online, in some parts of the world, is monitored, manipulated and sold by their own governments or ISPs. The United States and United Kingdom don't exactly have it as bad as places like Russia, China, Turkey etc, but a lot of people are very worried about their rights concerning privacy online, It's not very "Innovative" to be banning one of the few protections people have regarding this.

What exactly are the criteria for "special cases" that may be exempt?

This is only applicable in cases of multi accounting or pushing where players purposely hide their IP address so they do not get caught cheating. A player using proxies in places like China, obviously we are not going to ban them.

Meh. Players quit all the time, some of them have spent inordinate amounts of money on their characters, and they aren't allowed to gift that to a friend anymore, what a waste. If the new player changes the email and password, there should be no problem?

This is not a new rule on EN. We have had something like this in place for years now.

There are a number of issues that has happened in the past. Players saving credit card information on their account, new player uses it. Sensitive or personal information in telegrams has leaked. Players wanting their account back after 3 months etc... It becomes messy.
 

Senoras*B

Active Member
Da Twista said:
§5) Pushing
Pushing refers to an exploitative use of the game to provide experience/cash/items to other account(s). Specifically, a player may not participate in a prearranged duel or bounty or Fort Battle or Adventure to achieve an organised outcome and provide or obtain inordinate amounts of experience/cash/items/veteran points.

A player owning more than one account on different worlds may only participate in an Adventure with one account at a time. A player may not participate in an Adventure with intentions to lose or draw, thus providing the opposing team and/or their team with unmerited rewards.
Thank you for these rules. These are official today?
I would like to know how you determined "intentions to lose or draw". There is players who are always trying to find ways to "accidentally" draw the game or lose as a revenge to someone. Under these rules it's quite clear that you can't announce in pre-lobby chat that let's play draw game or telling the other team to take all buildings cos you're not playing.
What if there is no talk but;
-player selects useless abilities (barrel/eagle eye/inspire)
-disconnect before first turn
-isn't moving but is online
-takes bank/saloon and stays there
-wandering aimlessly (not stepping in buildings) maybe shooting if opponent is near.
-Fighting with teddy bear/ without gun.
-team killing
If you look action logs (dont know if you can see those after adventure?) Some this will most likely look like normal behavior. Playing games like this is almost guarantee lose for that team.
If his/her intensions are the draw the game he may;
-Bail out from building (avoid or keep los/move somewhere else)
-Die at shoot out next to the building
Again it may be hard to tell when it's intentional to die or bail out to draw a game if there is no talk about telling to leave a building.

How can I or support team tell it's intentional? It's different depending if player has done 100++ games or newbie that is actually clueless. I cant know how many games player has done, people change names so low level guy may have done 1000+ adventure under different name and level 150 level guy who hates adv. has done 5. Is it a same rule to everyone?
 
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DeletedUser26820

I can understand the reason for the "Pushing" rule, but it's so subjective we can only hope that the Mods will investigate thoroughly with focus on intent before enforcing it and be clear that the intent of the specific action was to negatively impact others.

I can go to the bank and transfer $2M to another toon with the "reason", because I can, but is this an inordinate amount of cash if I have $30M?
It's not to me, the sender, but it might be to the receiver, who only has $20k, and it can be to other toons on the same server who have even less than that.
Have I violated the Pushing rule, for the game allows it?
I'm giving another toon some cash so he can purchase gear off market. He uses it to purchase gear, thereby pushing the cash to others in exchange for that gear.

And there's the Kenny achievement in adventures, to be knocked out 5 times in a single adventure.
It pretty much requires prearrangement to achieve a specific outcome, and requires an intention to lose that specific adventure.

These are just a couple of examples.

Again, it's understood why a "Pushing" rule is required, but that the spirit or intent of the rule be regarded over the letter of the rule.
 

DeletedUser8627

@Senoras*B
Unfortunately I cannot share the exact details on how we investigate rule violations. There is a strategy in place that will be used by the moderation team if an Adventure is reported.
The Adventure issue is going to be taken very seriously and if players are going to continue messing around in this game mode, they will find themselves with hefty punishment against their account.
And yes, the rules are now live.

@
deiben
Short answer, no. That would not be considered a violation of the pushing rule. Of course, both accounts will be investigated thoroughly if such a large sum of cash was to be transferred to another account. Sometimes the intention of a player's actions are hidden to bypass a specific rule, and in such an event, both accounts will be placed on a watch list.
 

DeletedUser30399

With all the respect Mr. Da Twista but this is total joke regarding the adventure .

First can't provide clear details how rule violations will be investigated .
Second - how and on what bases will adventure be reported for rule violations ?
Third - you don't have a clear rules what can and can't be done in adventure .

Just an example , like deiben said - some of the achievements need to be arranged .
Also some of the games may finish 35=35 or 35=36 while there was no arrangement before that .
Not even going to start on issues for some players which other may consider they doing in on purpose and start to report it ....

And I think I said it before :
1.There is no draw . Even when the score is 35=35 one of the team always has a victory .
2.Make clear rules , some improvements ( blacklist and others ) and then start punish the players .

Thank you .
 
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Nisa

Well-Known Member
And there's the Kenny achievement in adventures, to be knocked out 5 times in a single adventure.
It pretty much requires prearrangement to achieve a specific outcome, and requires an intention to lose that specific adventure.

.

I am curious now , do you have sole survivor of the battle achievement ?
 

DeletedUser37191

One of the main issues with this revision is to get all language servers the same regards to the rules. While some of the rules were allowed on some markets, they weren't on others. To try and accommodate everyone, the rules have been written in such a way that allows for some markets to disallow certain aspects that they previously did while other markets can still be lenient.

Are you really saying that this revision is to have all servers with the same text of rules, but allow for different implementation? Isn't it better to be precise, and admit that servers have different rules? Otherwise people who play different servers have no way of knowing what's allowed on one vs another...
 

DeletedUser15368

Are you really saying that this revision is to have all servers with the same text of rules, but allow for different implementation? Isn't it better to be precise, and admit that servers have different rules? Otherwise people who play different servers have no way of knowing what's allowed on one vs another...
The punishments for breaking rules are also standardised now across servers, so there shouldn't really be too much individual interpretation from one server to another.
 

DeletedUser8627

With all the respect Mr. Da Twista but this is total joke regarding the adventure .

First can't provide clear details how rule violations will be investigated .
Second - how and on what bases will adventure be reported for rule violations ?
Third - you don't have a clear rules what can and can't be done in adventure .

Just an example , like deiben said - some of the achievements need to be arranged .
Also some of the games may finish 35=35 or 35=36 while there was no arrangement before that .
Not even going to start on issues for some players which other may consider they doing in on purpose and start to report it ....

And I think I said it before :
1.There is no draw . Even when the score is 35=35 one of the team always has a victory .
2.Make clear rules , some improvements ( blacklist and others ) and then start punish the players .

Thank you .

We have never and will never provide the public with specific details on our rules and procedures within the moderation team. We do not feel the need to educate the players on how to bypass the system we have in place. Rest assured, a player will not be banned or punished if there are no rule violations present on their account.

As for the achievements, if any pre-arrangement is done, it is a punishable offense. If you play enough Adventures, you will get all possible achievements eventually.

Not that everyone's intentions are to cheat, but we do have those who find the need to and in a multiplayer game like Adventures, it affects other players which we are trying to prevent. It's the sad truth unfortunately.

Are you really saying that this revision is to have all servers with the same text of rules, but allow for different implementation? Isn't it better to be precise, and admit that servers have different rules? Otherwise people who play different servers have no way of knowing what's allowed on one vs another...

Previously, a lot of servers ran on different sets of rules. Not much changed on the EN server with the new rules, but some drastic changes occurred on other servers. Because of this, players have to adapt to the new rules and this will take some time obviously. The goal with this revision was to get all servers on the same set of rules with the same punishment issued to the player if he/she is in violation of anything.
 

DeletedUser30399

We have never and will never provide the public with specific details on our rules and procedures within the moderation team. We do not feel the need to educate the players on how to bypass the system we have in place. Rest assured, a player will not be banned or punished if there are no rule violations present on their account.

As for the achievements, if any pre-arrangement is done, it is a punishable offense. If you play enough Adventures, you will get all possible achievements eventually.
of anything.

Let's start from beginning :
1.How to report a player if he doesn't say a word during pre-game , game , post game or he using offensive/insulting language in the last seconds before chat is closed ?
2.I am not asking about a procedures - I am asking about a clear rules what IS and what IS NOT allowed due to nothing clear is mentioned in §5) Pushing section .
3.Not sure if playing adventures but for the 5 kills with stone more or less can be done in time but for dying 5 times in single adventure game - not sure can be done without arrangements , specially if you are over level 100 .

Please reply with clear info if possible .
 
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DeletedUser30399

Any time this week for reply cause there are players which are insulting and ruining the adventures on purpose again ?
 

DeletedUser26820

Any time this week for reply cause there are players which are insulting and ruining the adventures on purpose again ?

You're challenge, now Degradatzia, is to define "insulting" and "ruining" so that your definition of such might be considered to be incorporated into the rules.

Please clearly define for us "insulting".
Please clearly define for us "ruining".

And then once those definitions are provided, please clearly define for us how they will be implemented into clearly stated rules that can and will be enforced by the game Moderators.

C'mon, peckerhead. line us out.....

Was that "insulting"? My town mates lovingly call me peckerhead and I take no offense to it.

Any call to kill adventures because some tulips can not blossom in the garden is not a reason to kill the entire garden.

"Insulting" and "ruining" are ambiguous terms until you clearly define them.

If you want to something, get Poker back in the game......
 
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