Approved One class is killing a game and we need a change

[NotDueller]

This needs to be said bluntly: the current state of the Dueller class is breaking the balance of the game.

Right now, Dueller is the only class that directly benefits from the opponent investing time into their own character. The stronger your enemy is, the more value the Dueller gets. That’s backwards design. It rewards imbalance and punishes progression.

What does this lead to? Every new or competitive player just starts as a Dueller. Why wouldn’t they? It’s effectively easy mode — stronger duels, stronger fort performance, and scaling that no other class can match. Over time, servers get flooded with Duellers while other classes slowly disappear.

PvP being any Fair? Not anymore.
You can’t even play against a Dueller hitting you from afar — your skills and attributes don’t matter anymore, only your set does. That’s not balance, that’s removing player agency.

But the real damage shows up in fort battles.

Players who spent months (or years) building non-Dueller characters are quitting or losing interest.
Why? Because someone 200 levels lower can walk in and chunk 10% of their HP in a single shot. That’s not strategy. That’s not skill. That’s just broken scaling.

This creates a vicious cycle:

• New players pick Dueller because it’s dominant
• Other classes become less viable
• Veteran players leave
• Class diversity dies

If nothing changes, this only gets worse.

The core issue is the 10% critical bonus. It’s too consistent, too punishing, and scales unfairly against developed characters.

A healthier alternative would be:

• Replace the flat 10% crit bonus with a chance to deal double damage, OR
• Rework it into a scaling damage amplifier that doesn’t disproportionately punish high-investment players

This keeps Dueller strong, but removes the toxic interaction where your own progress becomes your biggest weakness.

Right now, the class doesn’t just feel strong — it feels fundamentally unfair.

Fix it before there’s no class diversity left to save.

 

[Victor Kruger]

Bit late to the party arnt you ? been like it for 10 + years where have you been ? ... no one made you choose your class .. you did .... & btw pvp is not FF but dueling is... & in dueling a dueler class is usually very weak and pop faster than a virgin on prom night.

Many complain its Soldiers who are OP in both FF and dueling especially when prem .. others complain workers are the the most versatile, dodge too much and unfair especially when prem yada yada ... the only class I have any sympathy with is the Adventurer they do get a raw deal but.. it was your choice of class no one made you do it & if you chose not to read up on the class bonuses ? oh well nevermind

 

[NotDueller]

Bit late to the party arnt you ? been like it for 10 + years where have you been ? ... no one made you choose your class .. you did .... & btw pvp is not FF but dueling is... & in dueling a dueler class is usually very weak and pop faster than a virgin on prom night.

Many complain its Soldiers who are OP in both FF and dueling especially when prem .. others complain workers are the the most versatile, dodge too much and unfair especially when prem yada yada ... the only class I have any sympathy with is the Adventurer they do get a raw deal but.. it was your choice of class no one made you do it & if you chose not to read up on the class bonuses ? oh well nevermind

oh well, should have known 17 years ago, that if I get soldier 250level, I will have to deal with duelers 50 levels on FFs. Not to mention that Dueler is only class having scaling same on every level and having most broken trait.
How is it fair being even 80k HP soldier, when you die to 250lvl Duelers same way as you do to 100lvl's duellers also?
For 8 years I've beeing pushing a change, yet after 250LVL Update, the game is more and more broken.

 

[Ethereal]

The only class that really needs a change is adventurer... Soldier for however annoying big crits are is still the best tank in ff, worker is more situational but still fun to play and duellist is, like you said, plenty strong. Some very old players that started when none of this hyperscaling bs was really a thing are stuck with advent though. It of course still has its uses but if you didn't sign up to play 100% for the team (and be quite useless at any fun stat) it's a bit harsh. Like, did any of us really look deeply into 'stats' when really starting this game? I'm talking like a decade ago. I picked soldier on my main back then because the Indian dude looked cool af.

But alas, Inno 'tried' to change classes a 2 years or so ago, got blasted because the changes were ****, and did not try anything after again. And realistically, with the state the game is in, I don't think we have to expect any major changes anyway. There have been so many suggestions over the years, they just don't care either by design or by lack of tools given to devs.

 

[Uchiha Madara]

It's a high risk, high reward class. Duellers are supposed to be the class that thrives in direct combat. If you remove that, you don't have a Dueller anymore, you have a slightly different version of every other class.

New players don't pick Dueller because of some sophisticated meta read on class scaling. Most new players don't even understand the class system deeply enough to make that calculation. If anything, Dueller has one of the steeper learning curves for effective play. Anyone can pick it. Few play it well. ( New players don't exist and if they do they are less than 1% )

If class diversity is dying on your server, that's a server population and meta problem, not a Dueller design problem. Nerfing one class into the ground doesn't create diversity, it just shifts the dominant pick. You'd be back here in three months complaining about whichever class rose to fill the vacuum.

The Dueller is strong. It should be. That's the point.

I would personally suggest these:

Tie the damage to the Dueller's own stats. Right now it scales off the defender too much. Make it more dependent on the Dueller's own build investment.
Cooldown on the crit proc... Maybe the 10% can't proc twice on the same target within X rounds..

But again, we have talked about class changes for many years without any progress. It's a waste of time in my opinion talking about this things because nothing will change.

 

[Nere]

The only thing that is wrong with Dueller is its name. It should've been called Ragebaiter cause it's really good at triggering tryhards

 

[Vaggosr21]

Lets be real here, the only reason people complain about duelers is because they can do insane amount of damage even when really low level. When you have a soldier 210+ level and get crit from a 120lvl dueler for 7-8k and 8-9k from a 210lvl dueler is insane. A 210, even 180lvl should 100% crit that damage but a 100lvl player with a 2018 murrieta musket on 2 should not. Levels should mean more than they do right now for all classes

Go put a 120lvl soldier on a hot point tower and see if he lasts a round, spoiler alert he wont. People care a lot about crits and damage and that is why many players that come back choose a dueler. Because you can have an affect in game even if you leveled up for a few months fast. This is also why many people go damage when they have advents which is crazy in my opinion, people just care about the damage.

Advents are important in game but its more boring and i speak from experience because my main is a soldier and my second in an advent. Advents are very important when used correctly but they do not generate as much stats as any other class so people do not like it.

I have said it and i will say it again, there cannot be change in FFs unless it is a complete revamp of the formula and bonuses . There is at least 1 useless bonus in every class that could be replaced with a new FF bonus. We all know it but it needs a lot of work/ideas/trial and error and what we get nowdays is a bug fix once a month so it does not look like it's going to happen any time soon

 

[Tanzstafe]

the reason for dueler being doing so much damage is because of how much hp are the new sets givings + the double hp soldiers have, so the class that should be nerfed is soldier.

if i could change class, or have to start again from 0, would 100% be soldier.

 

[Vaggosr21]

the reason for dueler being doing so much damage is because of how much hp are the new sets givings + the double hp soldiers have, so the class that should be nerfed is soldier.

You either change both or none. You cannot nerf one class because another class has a bonus that scales on it and leave the other the same. A 100 lvl dueler should never crit for almost the same amount as a 200+, just like a 100lvl soldier could never tank a hot point like a 200+lvl one.

 

[Tanzstafe]

You either change both or none. You cannot nerf one class because another class has a bonus that scales on it and leave the other the same. A 100 lvl dueler should never crit for almost the same amount as a 200+, just like a 100lvl soldier could never tank a hot point like a 200+lvl one.

should.

 

[dragongeneral]

The only class that really needs a change is adventurer...

I agree with this. Advents are great holding a tower a position solo, but their ghosting makes them "selfish" and horrible tanks.
Selfish because when they ghost, they save themselves. At the expense of those around and behind them. Whom tanks should be protecting.
Maybe if like 10-25% of he shots directed at them post ghost were auto misses or "gun jams" instead of being redirected to others - they would be a bit better as tanks as at least when they ghost they would cause some of the opposing players to not fire at all

I have no issue with duelers. It's luck of the draw in most cases anyways. a level 120 dueler might have 20+ misses on a 250 solder vs a level 250 dueler might only have 5 or 10 misses. If one happens to be a crit.. so be it.
If you wanted, you could argue maybe putting a level buffer to the crit. Like for every 50 levels difference(or something like that) the chance of crit drops by 1%. that would make sense to me. As a level 25 dueler would have a 10% chance of a crit vs a level 25, but 5% chance vs level 250.

Double damage isn't enough. without crits some FF could last 100 rounds if it were possible.

 

[Victor Kruger]

oh well, should have known 17 years ago, that if I get soldier 250level, I will have to deal with duelers 50 levels on FFs. Not to mention that Dueler is only class having scaling same on every level and having most broken trait.
How is it fair being even 80k HP soldier, when you die to 250lvl Duelers same way as you do to 100lvl's duellers also?
For 8 years I've beeing pushing a change, yet after 250LVL Update, the game is more and more broken.

You are comparing v1 with v2 ... its apples to oranges & you are not alone .... I too have been here for near 18 years and think v2 is pay to play rubbish compared to the old game where player knowledge and every skill place mattered . v2 any idiot can throw $ at it and buy extra point, gear and pretend to be good when in fact is 90% about how much players spend nothing more and thats ofc the point, to appeal to a different type of player and attention span & i feel sorry for them tbh not knowing the difference .. but... theres no point crying about what has been and what is & if you cant get over it by now i suggest you find something else to do in game other than FF or adapt or play other worlds etc... no one said it was fair and sure the change to v2 lost inno 80% of its player base never to return I get it. I too bailed for many years and think they ruined a good game for this substandard option but all my *****ing about how crap v2 is compared wont change it. Just like yours won't... Alas v2 is all there is now so i just get on with it and find pleasure where I can despite being a vastly inferior game imo

Rather than complaining & crying for 8 years you could have just started a new toon and or played another world with another class and got on with it... you would have probably been higher lvl by now too and happier ... again you choice not to adapt or dump the game or start anew etc ..

 

[Chumanista]

Are talking about the class thats best in fort fights because of double hp, unkillable in duels because of double hp and tactics or a dueller?

 

[NotDueller]

You are comparing v1 with v2 ... its apples to oranges & you are not alone .... I too have been here for near 18 years and think v2 is pay to play rubbish compared to the old game where player knowledge and every skill place mattered . v2 any idiot can throw $ at it and buy extra point, gear and pretend to be good when in fact is 90% about how much players spend nothing more and thats ofc the point, to appeal to a different type of player and attention span & i feel sorry for them tbh not knowing the difference .. but... theres no point crying about what has been and what is & if you cant get over it by now i suggest you find something else to do in game other than FF or adapt or play other worlds etc... no one said it was fair and sure the change to v2 lost inno 80% of its player base never to return I get it. I too bailed for many years and think they ruined a good game for this substandard option but all my *****ing about how crap v2 is compared wont change it. Just like yours won't... Alas v2 is all there is now so i just get on with it and find pleasure where I can despite being a vastly inferior game imo

Rather than complaining & crying for 8 years you could have just started a new toon and or played another world with another class and got on with it... you would have probably been higher lvl by now too and happier ... again you choice not to adapt or dump the game or start anew etc ..

Thank you mr. Obvious. Next time Israel drops bombs, I will ask my president to drop bombs on someone else also. That's how we deal with problems. Escape from reality and problems

You either change both or none. You cannot nerf one class because another class has a bonus that scales on it and leave the other the same. A 100 lvl dueler should never crit for almost the same amount as a 200+, just like a 100lvl soldier could never tank a hot point like a 200+lvl one.

Reality is that, Soldier 100lvl will never be as goos as 100lvl dueler on servers that are 1year+ old.
There are a lot of people coming to me staying - go play Colorado on .net, great FFs.
How do You imagine me playing there and competing without choosing Dueller right now?

 

[JWillow]

I agree with this. Advents are great holding a tower a position solo, but their ghosting makes them "selfish" and horrible tanks.
Selfish because when they ghost, they save themselves. At the expense of those around and behind them. Whom tanks should be protecting.
Maybe if like 10-25% of he shots directed at them post ghost were auto misses or "gun jams" instead of being redirected to others - they would be a bit better as tanks as at least when they ghost they would cause some of the opposing players to not fire at all

I have no issue with duelers. It's luck of the draw in most cases anyways. a level 120 dueler might have 20+ misses on a 250 solder vs a level 250 dueler might only have 5 or 10 misses. If one happens to be a crit.. so be it.
If you wanted, you could argue maybe putting a level buffer to the crit. Like for every 50 levels difference(or something like that) the chance of crit drops by 1%. that would make sense to me. As a level 25 dueler would have a 10% chance of a crit vs a level 25, but 5% chance vs level 250.

Double damage isn't enough. without crits some FF could last 100 rounds if it were possible.

Selfish? Advents are not selfish, they are not protecting tanks, that is what soldiers and workers are for.
Advents are position holders in the face of high volume of bullets headed their way.
Maybe don't use Advents for a purpose they were never meant for, they are the time buyers, the last chance of holding, and most of the time, at the end of battle get the least rewards, as they didn't get dodge and damage that bring in the goodies.

So if you want to complain that they are no longer as effective at their job, probably true, but don't be name calling them when you put them somewhere they are not meant for, just as Hodor was a hefty figure of man, he was never going to be The Mountain, he was the the holder of the door that bought time, don't remember him being called selfish.



Also, there was a time when low level duellers were struggling, so a formula change was added that gives duellers under a certain level a higher chance for crits, I believe after the new level increase to 250. This change was community driven, mostly by older worlds, ie Colorado, it wasn't always so nice to be a low level dueller. So maybe start helping level up them duellers so you can get hit by more regular hits and less crits, hehe.

 

[NotDueller]

Proposed bonuses for all classes updated with 250 level reality:
Dueller: +0.1% Damage per level (25% without bonus, 50% with level 250 bonus)
Soldier: +0.1% HP per level (25% without bonus, 50% with level 250 bonus)
Adventurer: +0.2% Absorption per level (50% without bonus, 100% with level 250 bonus)
Bob: +0.1% Dodge Chance + Hit Chance per level (25% without bonus, 50% with level 250 bonus)


Let's be fair, not power creep out of nowhere. Fair scaling.

 

[dragongeneral]

Selfish? Advents are not selfish, they are not protecting tanks, that is what soldiers and workers are for.
Advents are position holders in the face of high volume of bullets headed their way.
Maybe don't use Advents for a purpose they were never meant for, they are the time buyers, the last chance of holding, and most of the time, at the end of battle get the least rewards, as they didn't get dodge and damage that bring in the goodies.

So if you want to complain that they are no longer as effective at their job, probably true, but don't be name calling them when you put them somewhere they are not meant for, just as Hodor was a hefty figure of man, he was never going to be The Mountain, he was the the holder of the door that bought time, don't remember him being called selfish.



Also, there was a time when low level duellers were struggling, so a formula change was added that gives duellers under a certain level a higher chance for crits, I believe after the new level increase to 250. This change was community driven, mostly by older worlds, ie Colorado, it wasn't always so nice to be a low level dueller. So maybe start helping level up them duellers so you can get hit by more regular hits and less crits, hehe.

I AM an Advent Tank. And we ARE selfish. Not name calling at all, it's just stating facts. When 100 guns are on me and I say, I'll only take 10, the other 90 can be directed at the players around and behind me, how is that not being selfish? Surviving at the expense at those around me?
And I did say: Advents are great holding a tower a position solo, because they are.

But in the era of 100+ on 100+ battles, for defenses they are used as main tanks often and all the time because in some cases there is no choice. You are never/rarely in a section or position alone. Maybe for D when you bail a tower and want to hold the attackers back from mounting? Their use of holding, maintaining and blocking is very situational. Most times, when taking fire, they are in an area with others. Making their utility, in the end, selfish.

As for your example, what if Hodor held the door and survived, but 90% of the wrights got through him and killed bran and I forget her name. So maybe not selfish -he tried - maybe just a bad tank? If he were a soldier or worker he would hold the door until he fell before one got through.

 

[dragongeneral]

I want to add the greatest utility of Advents is when you are the only target in range. which again in modern age 100 on 100 battles, how often does that really happen?

Fairly recently this really highlighted to me the disadvantage of Advent tanks as one cost us a FF defense.(we may have lost in any case, but maybe not, this ensured it.) We bailed inside, had an advent in at, and a soldier on DT to hold the towers. Both were being targeted by like 30 guns each or so. the advent ghosted after 3 targets, meaning DT received not 30 shots expected but close to 60, and it cleared DT allowing the attackers to mount before we could reinforce. only an advent on dt would've saved us as they could've also ghosted and wasted their shots for the most part.
However in most modern day battles, when an advent ghosts, those many attackers just turn and fire at a teammate , somewhere. So yes, they may hold a position well against the entire other team. At the expense of their teammates insta-ko...


Duelers are not even close to a problem in my opinion compared to this. In my opinion. If I could, I would switch to soldier. Soldiers also do a good job holding positions...

 

[JWillow]

Advents are not selfish if they are being used in a manner they weren't built for, stop blaming the advents and instead blame for the lack of workers and soldiers. Why are you not getting that you are blaming advents unfairly when they are doing exactly what they were made for, blocking, not protecting.

Why would you need 3 classes of protectors, if you need a third meat shield, fatten up the duellers, stop blaming the class that has been under rewarded for ages.

Just because you choose a class that is not a meat shield, doesn't mean you need to call it names. Stop blaming the class for your poor decision if you wanted to be a meat shield, you had soldier and worker, they have dodge and hp advantages(soldier), didn't you think hmm maybe they are for soaking up bullets?
Stop blaming the class for doing its job.

Though if inno wants it can add the ability to crit like a dueller to the advent class, since obviously advents are not tanks so they should start being able to do damage, hehe, joking kinda, 3 classes good at damage, bet meat shields will love it.

Also if you have so many advents, surely if you put enough swiss cheese in front it can soak up enough, just got to put them 2 deep on hot spots, and go non premium, for faster death but more bullets taken faster by the swiss cheese.

 

[dragongeneral]

Stop blaming the class for your poor decision

It comes down to this, doesn't it. Back at level 10, when I knew NOTHING about FF, I didn't expect to get involved socially in all honestly, and knew not as much about the game other than i once played 10 years ago and enjoyed it then.
I expected to be alone, fighting for myself. The bonuses for advent seemed win win. I'm not a fan of pvp so dueler was out for me, I didn't expect to join a town and wasn't interested in building up a town so nor was worker, and HP points wouldn't help with quests, so soldier didn't make sense.

I couldn't join FF until 25 so I didn't and couldn't know anything about it until far later, after my class was already decided.

Saying poor decision implies that I was fully informed. New players, when prompted to select class at level 10 with reminders and popups and quests are not given any information or details about FF or even duels really. They need to learn and read themselves, and really communicate with others. And people are not always the friendliest on some worlds. AT THE VERY LEAST - the details of each should be updated to reflect the main point and goal and use of each. I think the description is very lacking for each.
Heck if you really get into it you can get to level 10 very easily day 1 and select a class without even joining a town or speaking to anyone.
I wouldn't blame the players for poor decisions when they are not given the guidance in any way to understand the impact or extent of the decisions they are making.

Heck make a long detailed updated wiki page about each and link from the game to that so the new players can easily reference something and read up before deciding.

However the meta of current FF tactics make Advents mostly obsolete then per your point. Pure tanks and Damagers are needed much more than the situational advents. and when 20+% of the players in any FF cannot be used for their " manner they weren't built for" that is more of an issue to me than a level 25 dueler critting a 250 for 8k damage personally.