NSA's Criminal Activity

DeletedUser

I care more about constitutionality than legality.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Get a warrant and I'm fine with it.

Edit: Though legality is probably a bigger issue from the European perspective. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-leaks-us-bugging-european-allies
 
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Harsha..

Well-Known Member
I find it intensely annoying that people complain about these things - "snooping". In this digital age, you cannot have everything - security and privacy at the same time.

Look at 9/11, it showed the worst terrorists could do. Any sane government would do everything in it's power to stop another similar event from happening. I've read in the papers of several plots being plotted since - so this hasn't been for nothing

wake up to the fact that, America's powerful - so she has powerful enemies.
 

DeletedUser

What also bothers me more is the hypocrisy of the reactions in the US. Liberals: Snowden is a traitor. Conservatives: Snowden is a hero. If Snowden had been ten years earlier, the reactions would have been 100% reversed.
 

DeletedUser28032

The thing i'd point out is that I am not a US citizen, the NSA has no right or jurisdiction to monitor what I access on the internet. If it was MI5 then yes you could argue that it was for my own good but the NSA?
 

DeletedUser

I find it intensely annoying that people complain about these things - "snooping". In this digital age, you cannot have everything - security and privacy at the same time.

Look at 9/11, it showed the worst terrorists could do. Any sane government would do everything in it's power to stop another similar event from happening. I've read in the papers of several plots being plotted since - so this hasn't been for nothing

wake up to the fact that, America's powerful - so she has powerful enemies.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin.

And I'm sorry, amigo, but that utilitarian argument is tired and sophomoric. 9/11 is no excuse for any government to flaunt the rule of law, especially the United States government. There is no ethical or practical justification for a government that was conceived to protect the life and liberty of its people to systematically lie to, spy on, and tyrannize its own citizens at monstrous cost in the name of "national security". The ends do not justify the means. To claim that it does is to move into the realm of the psychopath.

If the United States government really wanted to do everything in its power to "stop terrorism", then it ought to drastically change its foreign policy (i.e. stop defecating on and stomping on the faces of the rest of the world) and stop terrorizing its own citizens. Americans don't need and shouldn't have a Kafkaesque panopticon corporatist state to "stop terrorism". Far more effective domestic security could be achieved through better diplomacy, customs inspections, and old-fashioned police work, at a fraction of the countless billions currently being spent, and without sacrificing essential liberty.

So much of what governments do to us reminds me of the movie, "Cool Hand Luke". I think especially of the scene where the prison warden, "the Captain", explains to Luke why he is going to be locked up yet again in the sweat box "for [his] own good".

"Cap'n," Luke replies, "I wish you'd stop bein' so damn good to me!"
 

DeletedUser31931

Firstly just going to say something. The NSA were doing the wrong things for the right reasons. However, think about it this way, why would you have a problem with the NSA watching you if you have nothing to hide? The NSA keep this data for a week or so at max I heard and then dump it unless it gives a terrorist lead, and most of their data collection is focused on suspicious individuals who the NSA already have an eye on. To be honest, every First World Government's probably been doing it, the NSA were just unlucky enough to get caught. (China definitely do it, I wouldn't be surprised if India did, and all Brits should know about GCHQ).
 

Harsha..

Well-Known Member
Yeah, in India, police have the freedom to tap phones if they believe someone is doing any sort of criminal activity. Not sure about internet, but the government once thought about banning skype because they refused to give access to calls (the 27/11 mumbai terrorists used skype (or something similar) to communicate)


Walter, there are 254 million internet users in America alone. NSA runs with a staff of around 30,000. That means, each guy in NSA has to track 8400 other americans. So, I'd say odds are that you are not being tracked. They will most likely track someone who has shown an unusual interest in Islamic learnings, someone who has visited Pakistan for strange reasons...someone who chats fanatic stuff in terrorist chat rooms - stuff of that kind.

Good foreign policy or not, it would be foolhardy not to keep tabs on one of the modern world's greatest elements. It would be like ignoring the possibilities of Germany making a nuclear weapon during WII, saying "That is just too dangerous, we fight better than that!".

Wake up to the fact - you will always have enemies, no matter what. Norway has an excellent foreign policy, yet they were attacked by a "christian" gunman
 

DeletedUser

You really think the NSA manually listens to every single conversation? This isn't 1950, they do have software to find keywords.
 

DeletedUser31931

Exactly, so why do you have anything to fear if you have nothing to hide? What could the NSA stand to gain from listening to your conversation about how you need someone to also get some peas from the supermarket, or more accurately, what could you stand to loose?
 

DeletedUser34315

The fact that they're listening is the problem. To do a phone tap, you have to get a warrant, because we have that little clause about unlawful searches. The NSA performs widespread monitoring without a warrant.

To say it's fine because we've nothing to hide is akin to saying being stopped on the street by police every time we see one and being searched is ok "because we've got nothing to hide."

We hold our constitution very seriously. A slight breach is a very large problem, because if a slight breach is allowed- a larger one may well be next.
 

DeletedUser

Exactly, so why do you have anything to fear if you have nothing to hide? What could the NSA stand to gain from listening to your conversation about how you need someone to also get some peas from the supermarket, or more accurately, what could you stand to loose?

Right, if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about, so why do we need the 4th amendment at all? The 2nd amendment? The National Guard is supposedly the well regulated militia so we don't need that. If that's the case, we can establish our own version of Pravda. Once we have that we'll no longer need freedom of the press. We can probably just do away with the Bill of Rights entirely, because the government only has our best interests at heart, so we don't need any silly rules making it harder for them to protect us.
 

DeletedUser

Zem, just because we haven't done anything wrong, doesn't mean that it is alright for governments (and not just our own) to wiretap us all illegally. And even if it was legal then it's still wrong, because government is just a body of people, notably ungoverned, and as such are bound to use the information acquired through such wiretaps to their own agendas.
 
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DeletedUser31931

I'm not saying that what they did was right, by any stretch of the imagination. However, what they did, they did for the right reasons. It's like a Deniable Op, but much much worse. As for Walter's post, I would reply to it, but I'm leaving the country today for three weeks and therefore can not give the post the attention it deserves. However, keep on arguing and remember that I'll be back in three weeks. That should help you through the hard times. :D
 

DeletedUser

I'm not saying that what they did was right, by any stretch of the imagination. However, what they did, they did for the right reasons.

If you steal to feed your family, you're doing it for the right reasons, but if you get caught you're still going to be punished. When the government breaks the law, it's a different story.
 

DeletedUser16008

One rule for us another for them, always has been and always probably will.

Dosn't make it right but then again whos going to bring them to justice ? no one thats who so do it they will.
 

DeletedUser1121

One rule for us another for them, always has been and always probably will.

Dosn't make it right but then again whos going to bring them to justice ? no one thats who so do it they will.

That is what wondered me the most about this whole thing. When it first came out, politicians around Europe reacted quite cool and calm, but when a few weeks later they heard that diplomats, politicians and sorts alike where being spied on as well, the whole world burned.
 

DeletedUser25606

To a degree its almost suprising to think this was really such a big relevation.I think Snowmans made himself a fugitive over something everyone already knew.Pointing the finger at America here would be unfair and naive when it would be likely that most governments would be doing similar things. It's how how child porn rings , terrorism , and drug traffic are policed (to name a few).With information never before being so easy to monitor why wouldn't a government take advantage of that?( I doubt its much of a stretch to think its been going on forever , but its just do much easier to do now)

Snownan may like to think he's made the world take the blue pill and now we all see the matrix , but the reality is most would've said " well dur" , hardly seems worth throwing your life away for , doesn't really make him a hero or a traitor , just an idiot.

As far as civil liberties go , that's an ideal that's never reeally exsisted, its just up to governments to bluff us into believing it
 
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DeletedUser16008

To a degree its almost suprising to think this was really such a big relevation.I think Snowmans made himself a fugitive over something everyone already knew.Pointing the finger at America here would be unfair and naive when it would be likely that most governments would be doing similar things. It's how how child porn rings , terrorism , and drug traffic are policed (to name a few).With information never before being so easy to monitor why wouldn't a government take advantage of that?( I doubt its much of a stretch to think its been going on forever , but its just do much easier to do now)

Snowman may like to think he's made the world take the blue pill and now we all see the matrix , but the reality is most would've said " well dur" , hardly seems worth throwing your life away for , doesn't really make him a hero or a traitor , just an idiot.

As far as civil liberties go , that's an ideal that's never really existed, its just up to governments to bluff us into believing it

No Scamp it really is :eek:, for most.... seeing it in black and white or colour backed up by files dates names makes it 100% REAL.

Like wife or child beating in the past everyone knows it used to go on regardless, it wasn't a big deal until people were confronted with the FACTS and exposed in all its gory details and still it goes on right under our noses.

Nobody of any merit or worth high up was prepared to expose this publicly with proof but they know what was going on too, if they did it was career suicide maybe even their life. IMO the ONLY reason snowman is alive today is simply BECAUSE he went high profile and dropping exposure and facts openly as possible. If he'd have gone to his boss or higher he'd already be dead and no one the wiser.

In fact if it wasn't for the alternative media and net I do not believe it would have been allowed mention on the mainstream media at all.

The ONLY time the TPTB sits up and takes note is when it affects THEM, OR when the alternative media takes something viral forcing the mainstream to cover it.

Look around you, make no mistake 99% of people suck up the crap they are fed and will continue to do so or say dumb things like oh he's an idiot for telling the truth and exposing this growing Nazi Stormtrooper mentality. Thats how much people care about their future, thats how helpless people feel and how pointless they consider trying to make a difference is....Cower in the corner be afraid to speak out, whats the point ? that is a BIG mistake for that is EXACTLY what its counting on to continue its ever increasing influence around the globe.

The world is upside down, we have fraudsters being given billions A BS US president who was given the Peace prize for torture, reducing freedoms and sanctioning drone strikes enmasse. People who attempt to tell the truth are hunted and treated like criminals. Children who stupidly hack into Gov non protected system are wanted as terrorists. Even peace demonstrators or advocates are put on the suspected terrorist watch list. Heroes of humanity are called traitors.

You might as well call the NSA the tech and data collecting section of the CIA only it encompasses everyone. The SS would be green with envy the way the NSA have turned NATIONAL SECURITY into a worldwide surveillance system and data gathering of the minutest details.

You want to know the best organised, pervasive and well armed terrorist group on the planet ? Well the NSA is an important part of it. ;)
 

DeletedUser529

Firstly just going to say something. The NSA were doing the wrong things for the right reasons. However, think about it this way, why would you have a problem with the NSA watching you if you have nothing to hide? The NSA keep this data for a week or so at max I heard and then dump it unless it gives a terrorist lead, and most of their data collection is focused on suspicious individuals who the NSA already have an eye on. To be honest, every First World Government's probably been doing it, the NSA were just unlucky enough to get caught. (China definitely do it, I wouldn't be surprised if India did, and all Brits should know about GCHQ).

The NSA keeps this DATA permanently, then with VERY sophisticated software they can profile ANYONE. The MASSIVE amount of data they are collecting will not just be discarded. The NSA is building a HUGE data collection center, just for this purpose. It will be a Universal CLOUD so to speak, holding data about all of us and all our activity on the web. So YES it does matter, even if we have done nothing wrong, and never intend to. It still does not stop THEM from profiling anyone they wish, and heaven forbids something happens to you if they have a mind to be creative with their profiling. IT is AGAINST their own Constitution, but I guess they have bent it so far that it just plain does not matter.
 
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