New push rules

Status
Not open for further replies.

DeletedUser

See the new rule:
http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?p=520582

Quote:
"The new rule states:§6) Push duels

A player may not intentionally take part in a prearranged duel to provide or obtain experience points or money. A player may not use the Sheriff and Market to push items or money between players (prearranged)." [emphasis mine]

You must be joking!!!! :eek:

I agree 110% regarding the sheriff & push duels, but not being able to prearrange items between players in the market.....you could ban half the players in the game right now for that!!!! For something that the MAJORITY of players consider LEGAL and an INTEGRAL part of the whole "market system", in fact I have NEVER heard / read ANYONE that even REMOTELY considered that to be illegal [and allow town / alliance only trades certainly encourages that behavior].

IMO the push duel rule OBVIOUSLY needed to be updated, but I see NO logical reason to add the market "comment" at least NOT without a public discussion of it. Now the devs probably will say they didn't ban "ALL" prearranged market sale, but based on the current wording at best ANY prearranged market sale is at best a JUDGEMENT call as to whether it broke the rules or not and in my book that is virtually the same as banning it because I am NOT going to risk my account over judgment call [too hard to tell right from wrong and the line between the two is always moving from one judgment call to the next].

IMHO at a MINIMUM, the market comment should be removed [at least temporarily] from the rule and than put under comment / review in the discussion forums. If that is NOT done ASAP this game will lose a HUGE percentage of the members in the next couple days, since "Push Duels" is a BANABLE offense.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser9470

well i dont think the market rule is clear enough:
scenario 1: good or bad?
if a town mate wants to sell something cheap to another townmate.

scenario 2: good or bad?
player A wants to give player B a load of cash, so player B sells a ring to player A for $100k...

imo the ruling targets scenario 2, scenario 1 is fine.

so along these lines you must consider that the ruling is fine targeting "pushing cash..."
 

DeletedUser22575

well i dont think the market rule is clear enough:
scenario 1: good or bad?
if a town mate wants to sell something cheap to another townmate.

scenario 2: good or bad?
player A wants to give player B a load of cash, so player B sells a ring to player A for $100k...

imo the ruling targets scenario 2, scenario 1 is fine.

so along these lines you must consider that the ruling is fine targeting "pushing cash..."

I haven't done much with the market but i thought there was a minimum price for items based on their value. Was I wrong?

If there is and i sell it for the set minimum price how can I be "push selling"

Once again we get a rule change that is clear as mud with no helpful examples.
 

DeletedUser13636

Well I have got to agree with this one. What is the point of having a market if we cannot arrange some sort of trade between others? This is one feature I was really looking forward to and now I am just somewhat disappointed. I really think this rule about arranged sales in the market should be reconsidered.
 

DeletedUser

They are going to have ALOT of fun policing the market.
This will get messy and it wont end well.
 

DeletedUser

I haven't done much with the market but i thought there was a minimum price for items based on their value. Was I wrong?

If there is and i sell it for the set minimum price how can I be "push selling"

Yes there is a minimum value, that is why I am so SHOCKED by the rule.
 

DeletedUser

i have to agree, the market rule is too general, and needs to be fine tuned. if i want to buy something, but its not on the market, i could find someone and arrange to buy it on the market. its called being a merchant.

if in any way a player abuses the market for pushing, well, then that should definitely be against the rules.
 

DeletedUser

well i dont think the market rule is clear enough:
scenario 1: good or bad?
if a town mate wants to sell something cheap to another townmate.

scenario 2: good or bad?
player A wants to give player B a load of cash, so player B sells a ring to player A for $100k...

imo the ruling targets scenario 2, scenario 1 is fine.

so along these lines you must consider that the ruling is fine targeting "pushing cash..."


The problem with your "examples" is WHO decides what is fair & what is a push trade??? IN the "real market" the buyer & seller decide. Example in one of the REGULAR worlds I listed a dirt lump that SOLD for $100K [which is probably 15-25% MORE than it EVER sold for in Beta, in addition how much are items like Hernando's Sword worth, the max amount someone will pay for an item like that will very DRAMATICALLY depending on the needs skill set up of the player, so one player may not pay $10,000, while another player that really needs it and has deep pockets may be willing to pay $250K. Using your examples above, BOTH sales could be considered "pocket lining" even though BOTH sales could just as easily be legitimate.

Not only that, but based on current rules that decision would ultimately end up in the hands of the devs as a JUDGMENT call for EACH prearranged trade and since people are human that means the line you can't cross will change from call to call and day to day which is unacceptable [not the devs fault, just not enough clarity regarding the rules].
 

DeletedUser

sheriff is rule is great.
market rule is either stupid or dumb. if you don;t want people do trade which is prearranged then why would you have alliance only and town only.

i am against this market rule.
 

DeletedUser

i have to agree, the market rule is too general, and needs to be fine tuned. if i want to buy something, but its not on the market, i could find someone and arrange to buy it on the market. its called being a merchant.

if in any way a player abuses the market for pushing, well, then that should definitely be against the rules.


Yep because i'm sure theres alot of people out there looking at profiles now wondering if someone would sell something. I see Wyatt Earp's Colt Buntlin that i thought about messaging the owner on Arizona but figured its priceless at this point so why waste my time. I saw a few Bears and Night Caps that would finish my set that i have sent messages begging for them.

Now heres the problem. I sometimes read the forums and any updates. This just recently started. There was a long while that i didnt read anything and wasnt even registered on the forums. I guarantee that theres a WHOLE lot of people that will be doing things that are frowned upon that wont even know about it.

Hell i was going to sell some items to a townmate today after talking to him on the phone at minimum price. Is that illegal?
 

DeletedUser

How bout players going strait tactic/dodge defensive builds and placing bounties on themselves? That was something that people figured out REALLY FAST to do to try and lure duels for XP in to them. Is that legal?

Theres so many ways to do things with the game now that one person would feel like its an exploit while the other would feel its a smart tactic. I personally feel the above is a smart tactic.
 

DeletedUser22575

Yes there is a minimum value, that is why I am so SHOCKED by the rule.


Please note the adjustment made to Game Rule: §6) Push duels ---> Click Here

The new rule states:
§6) Push duels

A player may not intentionally take part in a prearranged duel to provide or obtain experience points or money. A player may not use the Sheriff and Market to push items or money between players (prearranged).
The previous rule stated:
§6) Push duels

A player may not intentionally take part in a prearranged duel for the sole purpose of providing or receiving from his opponent experience points or money




OK, I will admit it I am dense this morning. Maybe someone can help me beat this through my thick head.

If I do a pillow fight with someone (prearranged) and one of us win 1 exp and/or $1 we are guilty of pushing dueling and could be banned depending of the subjective view of the mod who reviews the complaint.

If I place a Teddy Bear on the market (I think I saw one there for 50k) for 50k and sell it on the open market for 50k I might be ok and not banned. But if I sell it on a closed market to a member of my town I might be guilty of push trading again depending on the subjective judgment of the mod who reviews it.

And despite their being a minimum sale price for an item if I sell it on the open market for that price I again might be ok, but if I sell it to a member of my town for the minimum price I might be guilty of "push trading" again depending on the subjective judgment of the mod involved.

BUT

If I get 40 guys together with 5k each and we have a fort fight and 20 guys go over on one side and stand their naked...and the other 20 of us go over to the other side with equipment and fort weapons...

and we then kill 19 of the defenders leaving one alive so that the fort does not change hands ...

despite the fact we have manipulated the exp system and increased my chances of finding a valuable shiny that can improve my dueling effecting everyone I go up against in the game...

or I can then sell this item on the open market for a tremendous amount of cash ..

I have not broken any rule by push fort fighting......because I was cash fort fighting :laugh:

Have I got the right grasp on this situation?
 

DeletedUser

Then why is there such a feature as "sell to town" or "sell to alliance" if you must not do that? Or there may be some guys in a town/alliance forum saying "I´m selling piece of a note pt.2, Who want´s it. It´s cheap" For example. Is that not allowed??
 

DeletedUser9470

selling something cheap is allowed. you arent pushing cash.

its selling something way above its real value, in certain conditions.
like hernando on w10 going for 75k with immediate 100k. its the only one there and if i was the seller i would be asking around the same price.
this is fine, if someone bids for it then good for them.

but if you do this with a ring or part 2 or a pitchfork, when theres 20 of them for sale at 1k, then it will certainly be frowned upon.

really its quite simple and just needs a bit of common sense.
 

DeletedUser13636

selling something cheap is allowed. you arent pushing cash.

its selling something way above its real value, in certain conditions.
like hernando on w10 going for 75k with immediate 100k. its the only one there and if i was the seller i would be asking around the same price.
this is fine, if someone bids for it then good for them.

but if you do this with a ring or part 2 or a pitchfork, when theres 20 of them for sale at 1k, then it will certainly be frowned upon.

really its quite simple and just needs a bit of common sense.


Honestly, what is so wrong with doing that? I really do not see this as being a problem. In my opinion this is merely wealth redistribution. Below you can see this explained very well by Hellstromm in this thread, http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?t=41277. If we wanna be able to help a fellow player I think we should be allowed to do so. Sorry for the direct quotes Hellstromm, but I really did like the way you put this and I love the idea of wealth redistribution between players.


Trade subforums is a consideration, will chat with the team about that.

It's important to understand that the economics inclusion of trade has no impact on the overall wealth of the world, because Character to Character trade is merely transferring wealth between players. The leaks in game economics comes from the games' mechanics. In this game it's: item drops and job income. The drains in this game are: selling items to the merchant (at half its stated value), constructing towns, and paying for fort wars. Character to Character trade is outside of the games' economics, and instead has to do with wealth redistribution, an entirely different issue.

Not excited about being redundant, but no... that's wealth redistribution. Characters trading between each other merely results in cash moving around in the game (from one character to another). It does not increase, nor decrease, the amount of cash in the game, and thus has no impact on game economics.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

DeletedUser

selling something cheap is allowed. you arent pushing cash.

its selling something way above its real value, in certain conditions.
like hernando on w10 going for 75k with immediate 100k. its the only one there and if i was the seller i would be asking around the same price.
this is fine, if someone bids for it then good for them.

but if you do this with a ring or part 2 or a pitchfork, when theres 20 of them for sale at 1k, then it will certainly be frowned upon.

really its quite simple and just needs a bit of common sense.


The problem though is "common sense" is SUBJECTIVE your idea of fair market value could be VERY different from mine. Using your examples, depending on world I would consider the $100K Hernando's sword to be CHEAP.
I also have sold SEVERAL "cheap" job products for SIGNIFICANTLY more than "value", ie $1000+ for pitchfork, several K for ring, over $1000 for elixir / song book. MY OPINION is many of the job products are WAY UNDERVALUED
[listed product price based on demand / rarity], remember those prices were to avoid players making fast money selling them at stores, they have NOTHING to do with real world market prices which are based on demand & supply.

I know MANY players that consider the market to be VITAL to their retaining / regaining interest in this game [myself included], now this rule change is effectively extinguishing one of the ONLY features that is helping players ENJOY the game.
 

DeletedUser

This is not a question or a guide. Moved to the saloon, where discussion threads belong!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top