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New for formula and balancing the fort bonus of the characters

WhyN0t

Well-Known Member
Now that the update with level 250 and some new jobs will most likely be introduced next week, which will bring absolutely no improvement or change to any form of PvP, but, instead, will make your current problems worse, I think it's time for a change, what do you say?
@Goober Pyle You're the fort balance strategist, will you get involved in this must-have change that we need?

PvP is not balanced nor attractive for the players, and the discrepancies will be accentuated if you increase the level. Damagers have an advantage over tanks. Leadership does not have diminishing returns, HP does, because critical hits do exist. And most of those who go to the fort are duelists and soldiers, possibly workers, adventurers less and less because this class is useless. Now at lvl 250 it will become completely useless, you won't be able to do anything when you get hit with 3000 damage per hit and 6500 with crit. With each passing year, better sets appear, with more leadership, therefore more damage dealt by damagers. Every year, there are events with skill points, so more leadership points for damagers. What to do as a soldier when you take 5 critical hits in a fort? As an adventurer, I no longer say that you don't get to take 5 criticals, because you will be passed out long before the duelists get to hit you with 5 crits. It's sad. The formula must be changed. Resistance is crazy, it doesn't even have a formula, it's just a constant that you subtract from the damage received. Which makes the tanks deal very little to 0 damage, and the duelists still deal high damage. A little smaller, but anyway over 1k per shot. And you lose a lot of hp and defense if you play with spirits. Now at lvl 250 resistance will be completely useless against damagers, not even high level tanks will be so affected by it. Probably the summer spirits set will become useless. It depends on how many people will reach high level. You should buff all resistance items or change the formula asap. Tanks don't make xp from fort battles, they don't do damage, do something about it. Adventurers don't get any xp or bonds for their ghosting bonus, please do something about it. It's not enough that it's a useless bonus that prevents you from dodging, it's not even rewarded. Sometimes you KO your own teammates. This class needs a buff/rework as soon as possible. Over the years I have presented several possibilities, I think that the ghost rounds are useless for the way things are going on right now, there is too much damage dealt by the damagers, delete the current adventurer's fort bonus and add another one. And not only the fort bonus should be changed. Those who choose adventurer are probably clones or support accounts, no one takes this class seriously to play fort, duel or any other form of pvp.
I think workers, soldiers and duelists are pretty much balanced, the issue is damage vs hp and critical hits which will become even better with the new update.

TL : DR
Damagers deal too much damage and will continue to give exponentially more with the new update, because leadership doesn't have diminishing returns. The fort formula must be changed, possibly duelists slightly nerfed, the adventurer from almost useless will become completely useless, the resistance is poorly thought out, it affects tanks too much and not enough the damagers, and at high lvl it will become useless, because it is a constant value, it does not increase depending on the level and does not have a formula. Tanks don't make xp and bonds at the fort because they don't deal damage, the formula for bonds/xp needs to be rethought. Personally, I would also nerf the towers' bonuses.

Edit: My keyboard doesn't work properly, can you, please, modify the title from "New for" in "New fort" ?
 

Bill Paxton

Active Member
Damagers deal too much damage and will continue to give exponentially more with the new update, because leadership doesn't have diminishing returns.

It has a diminishing effect. Every char level increases the base HP and that lowers the damage multiplicator (Leadership ÷ MaxHP).

I got curious and did a little bit of testing. Turns out the damage gain from leadership (aka multiplicator) for higher levels is almost nonexistant.

Here is a table comparing a level 150, 200, 250 char with captains clothes and weapon and murrieta horse set:

LevelWeapon damageLeadershipMultiplicatorResulting damage
15034516381.0301700
150*450 (lvl 150 cpt weapon with lvl 200 base damage)16381.0301914
20045021831.0444920
25055527291.05361140

* The second row is just to make small damage gain from leadership

One can see that the additional damage mostly comes from per level damage of the rifle. The damage gain from the multiplicator (with mentioned gear) is roughly 1% per 50 Level.
Even with level 3 gear the additional damage is still small compared with per level gain from the rifle.
To be honest I didn't expect the effect to be that small.

Anyhow, tldr: With the new update FF damage will increase further, but not because of additional leadership. It's caused by per level damage of rifles.
 

Bill Paxton

Active Member
First things first: I agree with you that the effects on PvP, especially fort fights, should have been considered first.

@Goober Pyle You're the fort balance strategist, will you get involved in this must-have change that we need?
That would require a developer (someone that can write code, change formulas and deal with the fallout instead of adding new sets, quests and jobs). I don't think there is any assigned for TW.

Resistance is crazy, it doesn't even have a formula, it's just a constant that you subtract from the damage received.

Resistance from clothes is a fixed value and broken.
Resistance from skill points is not and has a formula (from the wiki): 300 × (Hiding OR Setting Traps) ÷ MaxHP + Resistance Bonus

Leadership does not have diminishing returns, HP does, because critical hits do exist.

It's actually the other way around, except for crits. HP grows steady while skill points that affect FF aim and dodge have a weaker effect with every additional point spent.
In other words HP tanks benefit most from additional skill points (be it this update or the skill point inflation in FF sets). As a side effect dueller benefit a bit because they have crits, other damagers don't.
 

WhyN0t

Well-Known Member
First things first: I agree with you that the effects on PvP, especially fort fights, should have been considered first.


That would require a developer (someone that can write code, change formulas and deal with the fallout instead of adding new sets, quests and jobs). I don't think there is any assigned for TW.



Resistance from clothes is a fixed value and broken.
Resistance from skill points is not and has a formula (from the wiki): 300 × (Hiding OR Setting Traps) ÷ MaxHP + Resistance Bonus



It's actually the other way around, except for crits. HP grows steady while skill points that affect FF aim and dodge have a weaker effect with every additional point spent.
In other words HP tanks benefit most from additional skill points (be it this update or the skill point inflation in FF sets). As a side effect dueller benefit a bit because they have crits, other damagers don't.
You have no idea what are you talking about, do you? :lol:

First of all, HP does have several diminishing returns.
Higher hp = lower damage from leadership
Higher hp = lower resistance from hiding/setting traps
Higher hp = higher critical hits (this is the strongest diminishing returns)

Second of all, I was talking about the DAMAGE from leadership, not aiming/dodging from leadership. It was so obvious, replaying it in context, how could you not see it? How would leadership have been calculated differently than aiming and dodging (not being the square root of it). It would be absurd. Damage from leadership doesn't have diminishing returns, because damagers sets don't have hp. First 100 points in leadership increase your damage the same as the last 100 from 3000 points. This is UNIQUE. Attack and defense from hiding, setting traps, dodging, aiming and even from leadership works differently. But the damage from leadership is the same, it doesn't have diminishing returns.

And last, but not the least, I was obviously talking about resistance from clothes, not from skills. I mentioned the set of summer spirits, I mentioned that the values do not scale per level, I said as clearly as possible that it is a constant, not a formula, did you at least read what I wrote or did you want to appear intelligent? If it's the latter, you didn't succeed.

Anyhow, tldr: With the new update FF damage will increase further, but not because of additional leadership. It's caused by per level damage of rifles.

Is it that difficult to understand what I wrote? The multiplier is the same, but the damage increases because the leadership increases significantly. In the same way, the hp of the tanks also increases, but guess what? HP is countered by critical hits, leadership is not countered by anything. 10 hp per level is not enough to reduce the damage from leadership, because the basic damage of the weapon also increases automatically, the same damage that is also used when calculating the damage given by leadership. Damagers get ~60% more damage and tanks ~60% more HP, but this hp is actually less valuable because of the critical hits you take. Do you understand now?
 
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WhyN0t

Well-Known Member
PvP bring the most money, I don't understand... You don't upgrade items like crazy for church or jobs, but you do for duel, forts and adventures. It makes no sense.

I remember few years ago, it was an attempt to modify the fort formula, but the new one was not very successful, was all this effort abandoned?
 

Goober Pyle

The West Team
Fort Balancing Strategist
I would characterize the post IFBC fort work as more of a tolerated side project (that was immediately undermined by the next set released)
 

Bill Paxton

Active Member
Oh, I got it. You are already set that the situation around HP tanks is fine and "damagers" are the issue.
That's why you at first omitted the increased base damage that everyone benefits from, including HP players.
(Yes, leadership skill gives double damage. Just like before.)

For the same reason you make it seem like the lower resistance and damage multiplier is a malus on HP tanks. It's not. It's a trade off everyone has to make: resistance vs HP, additional damage vs HP.
And of course skilling damage means you can not put skillpoints into resistance and vice versa.
The same way leadership players could complain about being a glas cannon.

Asking for more base damage now is just working around the problem. HP increases outscale most other stats. Dueller crits catch up with them because it's a percentage based damage. The other damage not so much, including double damage.

I would bet that as soon as HP player do more damage you would complain again, since you get hit harder by enemy tanks. Besides, what fun is it when everyone plays a tank?
 

Bill Paxton

Active Member
PvP bring the most money, I don't understand... You don't upgrade items like crazy for church or jobs, but you do for duel, forts and adventures. It makes no sense.
Surely ff and duel sets are a big chunk. But there are also high demands for church building clothes, trading, product drops. I wouldn't underestimate that.

Also earning money via PvP sets seems one (or the?) reason that caused the mess. New FF sets give higher and higher stats which causes more and more imbalance with the FF formular. And as a result char boni like ghosting become useless.
 

RaiderTr

Well-Known Member
We've been talking about the Tank-Damager imbalance for years, which one can find via my signature.

The real issue is/was that Tanks would fall quite quickly without getting any fun and rewards (as its formula also borken since it wasn't designed for absurd damages) even if you are useful to your team. cough Adventurers cough

Now I reckon this update will make Critters much happy and other Damagers not so much, which is okay. (Irony how the battles will need more properly skilled Duelers)
Tanks will be having absurd amount of Hp, and with these Towers I don't reckon they will fall quickly.
But this doesn't mean playing a Tank will be fun or rewarding..
So yeah not so much difference than now.

The real issue will lie with the level differences of players.

I wonder what will happen with Union Officer rifle damage though..
 

Thanatoss

Well-Known Member
@RaiderTr
Stop playing on old servers and start playing on new world... Where there is no union officer set... Where you can start same level as everyone... Where you can pick soldier or dueler class that are the two most favourable for pvp now
 

WhyN0t

Well-Known Member
New FF sets give higher and higher stats which causes more and more imbalance with the FF formular
Not really. Diminishing returns are very strong in fort formula. For example 100 leadership is 10 attack/defense, 1000 leadership is 31.62 attack/defense. 2000 is 44.72. 3000 is 54.77. The issue is the damage from leadership which doesn't suffer from diminishing returns. Upgrading tank items doesn't provide that much value. Bull's set from +2 to +3 gives 2.3 extra defense and ~400 hp at lvl 150. It simply not worth upgrading.
 

RaiderTr

Well-Known Member
Mind you I (re)started on a new world when it was still new (aka pre-xmas) and I've seen/suffered enough to hate the "new" servers.

P2W at highest, basically.
Apart from political madness.
 
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