Lockerbie Bomber's release:Justified or not?

DeletedUser


To sum it up the Lockerbie Bomber is to be released from prison on compassionate grounds due to being terminally ill with cancer. Personally I think that letting a murderer out on compassionate grounds, especially after serving less than a decade in prison, is baloney. He killed over 200 people mercilessly and he deserves to be given no mercy at his own death. So what do you think? Is it just to let this man spend his last days free?
 
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DeletedUser

Yep. I heard that US prisons are getting yoga rooms and luxuries like that because people argued that prisoners' lives are "too stressful". I think I'll dig up a few sources and start another thread about that.
 

DeletedUser

The Humanitarian state of america has proven that Crime is okay, you will get anything you want in prison, and don't get me started on conjugal visits...
 

DeletedUser

The problem exists not just in the US but all over the western world. Remember, it was the Scottish parliament under UK laws that made this decision.
 

DeletedUser

Surely the mercy that a society is capable of showing its most hated criminals is a good thing. When we have every reason to feel nothing but hatred and yet can show compassion, it is a sign that society is progressing, evolving, and not falling into decay and despair.
 

DeletedUser

Just to get the facts straight here, there has been no formal decision on Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi's release from Scottish prison as yet. NBC is misrepresenting the facts by saying that the Scottish parliament has decided to release him - although the latest statements from Kenny MacAskil (Scottish Justice Minister) have indicated that a release of some kind is likely. At the moment, it's certainly not clear whether this would mean a full release or simply a transfer to a Libyan prison, allowing him to die in his homeland.

I'm not sure why David Schofield is talking about the US justice system because Scotland isn't part of the US but it's probably also worth noting that the US government, through Hillary Clinton, have expressed strong concerns about any form of release.

So, if Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi deserves no mercy at his own death, does that mean that we should deliberately attempt to give him what he deserves? Should his death be made more uncomfortable to eke out some last retribution before cancer robs you of more extended vengeance?

The mantra of what criminals "deserve" can only lead to the principle of "an eye for an eye" and a society which deliberately attempts to exact suffering on any criminal equal to what they've caused risks a descent into barbarity.
 

DeletedUser

Ok - now it's official and it seems to be a release rather than a transfer.
 

DeletedUser

Its a lot more complicated then all that unfortunately.. there are some very odd circumstances around the bombing in the first place.

Many (though not all) of the families over here in the UK of the deceased believe he wasn't the person who carried out the bombings but a patsy that Ghadafi used to get sanctions lifted on trade. I know this differs heavily with whats coming out of Washington.

Paul Foot wrote some interesting articles on it before he died, very compelling stuff, as the UK government has refused to ever show the evidence it had, and the co-defendant (which according to the prosecution case was central to al-Megrahi's involvement) was acquitted.

That said when they released Ronny Biggs over here a few weeks ago I think they set a dangerous precedent, and yeah, the guy should from a legal point of view still be in prison.
 

DeletedUser

He was found guilty and imprisoned. The reason people are imprisoned is not merely to punish (definitely not to rehabilitate them), but also to protect the citizenry. The broken assumption is that people who are eventually released will not want to return to prison, and will thus behave once released. That is the mistake in this decision.

To the point here --- just because he is terminally ill does not make him any less of a threat, especially a threat such as bombing. He has even less motivation to stay alive, more motivation to die before his cancer starts taking away his sensibilities and causing him excruciating pain. No matter where he is, he will die.

The courts have commuted his sentence to demonstrate mercy but, in doing so, they have placed the citizenry in harms way.
 

DeletedUser

Yep. This is going to boost the confidence of all the middle eastern terrorist factions and membership will soar. It isn't just him as a person that's dangerous, it's what he and his release represent.
 

DeletedUser

I think one thing my esteemed fellow posters might have missed in their condemnation of the decision (which I don't agree with) is that the guy was currently appealing his conviction when they decided to release him on compassionate grounds.

Now his conviction, was carried out in a closed court situation in Holland, costing £50 million. Now in the UK, if we had a constitution, it would be against the conviction, cases should always be public.

This would not have been done in a closed court this time, and the families of the victims in this country were among those pushing for his appeal as frankly the official story doesn't add up. The key witness was discredited, and was paid for his testimony.

The reason for the release may partly be that embarrassing questions may be asked of certain people.

In summation, no he shouldn't have been released, but in terms of natural justice he probably isn't the 'terrorist' he's been made out to be, and if he were in better health it would be shameful that his appeal wasn't going to be heard.
 

DeletedUser

Right, the discussion isn't about flamers, so let's be careful about not derailing a rather emotionally charged topic.

Wildmanjim, almost every convicted criminal with a long, or lifetime, sentence, has their case on appeal. It's just the way it works. In order to ensure you can appeal in the future, you have to repeatedly appeal in the present. If you lapse in filing an appeal, you cannot file an appeal ever again. That's the way it is in the U.S., in the U.K., in Canada, and likely in many other countries.

Look, this was the second appeal filed (the first one was televised on BBC and translated into 7 different languages, demonstrating their sincere efforts to provide transparency). An appeal doesn't make him innocent. In fact, the vast majority of appeals are either denied or lost in the courts, and his first appeal was denied stating insufficient grounds. And, the original hearing underwent an extreme effort to provide a neutral base for the case to be tried. Although it was Scottish law being imposed, the trial was held in a neutral country.

I listened to the Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill, a talented orator (click here). His argument sounds very reasonable as to why he commuted Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi's sentence, but it is not reasonable. Just because a person may live for only a short period of time does not diminish his threat, nor does it serve justice.

I think it is also important to correct your misinformation. Megrahi, and the other charged defendent, underwent five pre-trial hearings, two of which were held in private and which cost, for the creation of the special court and prison complex at Camp Zeist, on or about £12m, not your purported £50m. The actual trial was made quite public, full-transparent.

The second appeal filed ran on the "conspiracy theories" that were encouraged by Hans Köchler, the U.N. trial observer who is a professor of philosophy, not law. He argued, as any philosopher, that the due process was draconian. Well, boo to him, because that just so happens to be the way the legal system works. It's not built with the intent to hem and haw, but to hit hard and provide evidence, both for and against, to with their respective positions, and thus the case. I listened to, and read Kochler's arguments, and he's frankly wrong. He expects a philosophical debate in a courtroom, and that just doesn't happen.

Also, someone else mentioned he had been brought to face the courts 11 years after the crime. So what? There are people repeatedly being arrested years, even decades, after the commission of a crime. That doesn't demonstrate innocence, it only demonstrates a delay in justice, the real-time complications of obtaining evidence in an internationally-based crime.

Finally, I read some incredibly ridiculous arguments stating that Obama should not have said anything and that this case is none of U.S. business. What a major piece of crap. 180 of the total 270 victims of this incident were U.S. citizens. The plane, Pan-Am, was American-owned. The destination of the flight was New York. U.S. citizens were the intended victims of this crime. Moreso, they were two-thirds of the victims. The U.S., government and otherwise stating their great displeasure at the commuting of this murderer's sentence, is appropriate.

This man was responsible for the murder of 270 non-combatants. Not one, not two, not even 20... but 270. He committed mass murder, and no mass murderer should be given leniency, for the mere fact they have the potential to recommit. In this case, he also stands as a martyr of "righteousness."

One other argument is that the Lockerbie incident happened just months after the U.S. Navy inadvertently shot down an Iranian commercial plane, killing hundreds, and thus it was the Iranians behind the attack, as retribution. But, evidence does not support that conspiracy theory, nor does "revenge" stand as a viable defense even if Megrahi was working in support of the Iranians.
 

DeletedUser

I mean I read all of that but seriously, there's more to it then you think.

For instance, the trial wasnt carried out in the open, not by British standards of justice.

Dismissing a UN advisor because he was a doctor in philosophy? er ok... about as relevant as the sky being blue.

I don't have time to argue this out today, some of us are busy, so I'm just going to leave this here:

http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/2009/01/us-media-beginning-to-see-light.html

The evidence - note that no one has figured out how he got the bomb on the plane... and that the judges recognised that the evidence was flawed.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/feb/01/lockerbie.world3

Its also worth reading the official filed appeal documents for their comprehensive summation of the problems with the prosecution case.

And frankly, Obama can say what he likes thats his job, but I'm sure if good old Gordon Brown commented in a roles reversed situation he'd get loudly shot down by the American media.
 

DeletedUser

A role reversal? If you're arguing about Guantanamo and his efforts to have them undergo a trial, then your argument is sadly, profoundly, flawed.

And I already indicated that I read Kohler's arguments. I gave you my interpretation of his arguments, in that he was reviewing the process of law from a philosophical standpoint, not from a legal standpoint. Also, he was not a U.N. advisor, he was an observer. A huge difference. So yes, I am very much willing to dismiss his arguments, because they are grossly flawed. Even legal experts from his own country called his arguments flawed. The guy just doesn't know, nor understand, due process of law (not that I blame him, I'm not keen with due process of law either, but that is not what was on trial here, and thus it is a distraction to the actual case).

And wildman, it is never a good idea to rely on a blog regarding an actual article. Review the article in question here. Stated fact, this was the 2nd appeal. Determining whether someone has sufficient evidence to support an appeals hearing does not generate an innocent plea. In fact, it rarely does.

As to the second link, just because some of the evidence presented was weak does not dismiss all the evidence that was "not" weak. The second article does not strengthen your argument, it weakens it.
 
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DeletedUser

A role reversal? If you're arguing about Guantanamo and his efforts to have them undergo a trial, then your argument is sadly, profoundly, flawed.

I wasn't... well done. Thats a completely seperate matter.

Come on... on topic please.

And I already indicated that I read Kohler's arguments. I gave you my interpretation of his arguments, in that he was reviewing the process of law from a philosophical standpoint, not from a legal standpoint. Also, he was not a U.N. advisor, he was an observer. A huge difference. So yes, I am very much willing to dismiss his arguments, because they are grossly flawed. Even legal experts from his own country called his arguments flawed. The guy just doesn't know, nor understand, due process of law (not that I blame him, I'm not keen with due process of law either, but that is not what was on trial here, and thus it is a distraction to the actual case).

And wildman, it is never a good idea to rely on a blog regarding an actual article. Review the article in question here. Stated fact, this was the 2nd appeal. Determining whether someone has sufficient evidence to support an appeals hearing does not generate an innocent plea. In fact, it rarely does.

I think you're missing my point, like I said, its irrelevant what your views on him are, you introduced him to the thread, not me, I don't really care what his views are.

But frankly jurisprudence is more then a side issue & er I'll link what I want too thank you.

As to the second link, just because some of the evidence presented was weak does not dismiss all the evidence that was "not" weak. The second article does not strengthen your argument, it weakens it.

Criminal burden of proof, beyond reasonable doub etc, even the court admited that the evidence had holes.

I'll remind you, that I'm not arguing he should have been released.. you appear to be looking for an argument in things I've not said.

As I've been saying... again, the appeal needed to go through so a true account, without holes of the facts was given. He may or may not have been guilty, but over here the families are after the truth and they feel they haven't got it. With the decision to wuss out and release him the families will never get answers now.

He shouldn't have been released for that reason and that reason alone.
 

DeletedUser

I'm one to feel slightly worried about his release. The reason for the bombings are still not 100% clear, but theories given include revenge by Libya and some islamic jihad organisations. With todays trend of suicide bombings, something that hadn't been so frequently accepted as a method back during this bombing, letting go of a terrorist that is sure to die shortly and has already proven himself capable and willing of killing great numbers of innocent civilians... well... I'm just worried that the good man won't be a sport about it and might just decide that he'll go out with a great bang. The political impact and broad coverage such an event would have would make it the pot of gold for any terrorist organisation and I wouldn't be suprised if some terrorist leaders out there are having a wet dream over it as I write this.

But I'm just a pessimist like that. :)
 
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