Limit the Health Skill

DeletedUser

For someone who changes towns as socks and doesn't play dueler class (at least not on w12 and w13) you definetly don't know what are you talking about.
It will kill duelers... Man... And I'm reading this weeks after I've already posted that if you want a chest in 99% fortfights just play HP dueler. So that shouldn't be corrected?

Adventurers will win? Um... Excuse me? Adventurers were the crap class, are the crap class and will continue to be the crap class no matter what changes in the game without changing all crap bonuses adventurers have. How many times you've actually used your class bonus on w12? I really don't remember you seeing in the frontline. If you went there at least once, you'd know your class bonus is tightly connected to HP and there is no logic where one adventurer alone nicks a fort with his 7K HP avoiding flag negative bonuses. And you're saying adventurers will win if HP gets capped? You blind or something?

And what about workers? Aren't they dodging machines on worker tower? Oh, you didn't know? Maybe you should try to respec into HP worker on w13 then try it. But why would you, it's not that you really have a town, team, friends or whatever on w13 to try to really help them in forts.

And you're not the only one against this. All players who can't play the minigame without being a tank and without hiding behind a tank will be against this.
 

DeletedUser

Sorry but I think your talking rubbish, though maybe im not on this world you play where HP tanks rule. Have you hear of blocking them before getting to the flag ?

You only covered one side in this though.

I don't play any of the worlds where this is currently a big issue, yet... However there seem to be an increase in flagrushes at most worlds these days. And I assume thats because it's too hard to clear the towers due to too much HP.

Although you can have a large amount of HP on both sides, it only benefits the defenders as they will be able to hold the towers long enough to get HP advantage.

I'm afraid that if it's kept the way it is now, the only way to win an attack will be by a pre-planned flagrush(especially smaller forts), which in other words mean that this will eventually be the only strategy.

I don't really mind flagrushes, but it takes away alot of the fun. Since you might aswell be offline for it.

Or, how about this: simply limit the amount of SP in health (including Strength AP) to 200.

I think this is the best solution, and more likely also easier to code. Limit the amount of skill-points you can add to HP, and any points you get from gear will be on top of that.

Soldiers would still be able to get more HP, but I think this is balanced through the other character bonuses.
 

DeletedUser

there seem to be an increase in flagrushes at most worlds these days.
Not true, it became a curse more than a half a year ago and is countinuously happening.
Why does it exist in the first place? Just to make sure players don't protest on 55 rounds. You can say, hey devs, we couldn't win in only 55 rounds because they had too much of HP we couldn't break and then devs will reply, yea, but you could try with a flagrush.

Couldn't find a thread on our forum here (I searched but it's impossible to find it without remembering proper keywords) so I found another one about the matter on beta forum. It was easy. I searched for the keyword "lemming". ;)
Check it's date.
http://forum.westbeta.innogames.de/showthread.php?t=1069

Too bad Elmyr didn't post this in our Ideas section. I'd say yes and star it with 5.
 
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DeletedUser22685

Actually the real reason for flag rushes and why it's hard to clear towers on the worlds you're speaking of is lack of onliners. Some worlds see 20 onliners and think "Wow, this is a great turnout".
 

DeletedUser

So other worlds with hundreds of onliners should suffer because of dead worlds? Great logic futu, one day you'll become a successful manager in Microsoft.
 

DeletedUser22685

Lol, when did I give any opinion on Helen's idea or use any logic at all? I stated a fact in reply to a comment regarding flag rushes on old worlds. I'm actually sitting on the fence in regards to a HP cap, I'm waiting on more posts in this thread to decide which way I vote.
 

DeletedUser

Not true, it became a curse more than a half a year ago and is countinuously happening.

I said an increase ;)

Actually the real reason for flag rushes and why it's hard to clear towers on the worlds you're speaking of is lack of onliners. Some worlds see 20 onliners and think "Wow, this is a great turnout".

True, but not entirely :)

A few months ago, one of the more common strategies was:
- Start on one side and move north
- Clear towers
- Mount both towers, and have a shootout

Right now, it's more common to see:
- Start on one side and move north
- Staying north with the intent to clear towers, but with little or no success
- Bolt for flag, while there is still enough HP to get to flag and hold it for 5 rounds

I've seen battles where almost everyone is up north, and most of them online. And you still have to do a flagrush, because the defenders manage to hold the towers long enough to nerf the little HP advantage the attackers have in numbers from the start.

Although this isn't a pre-planned flagrush, and does require a little more movement and advantage to those that are online. Once you get the order to move to flag, you might aswell set your target and log out. Also if it becomes clear that you will end up going for flag 9/10 times using this strategy, pre-planned flagrushes will become more frequent, as offliners will be of more use going for flag than going north.
 
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DeletedUser

For someone who changes towns as socks and doesn't play dueler class (at least not on w12 and w13) you definetly don't know what are you talking about.
It will kill duelers... Man... And I'm reading this weeks after I've already posted that if you want a chest in 99% fortfights just play HP dueler. So that shouldn't be corrected?

Adventurers will win? Um... Excuse me? Adventurers were the crap class, are the crap class and will continue to be the crap class no matter what changes in the game without changing all crap bonuses adventurers have. How many times you've actually used your class bonus on w12? I really don't remember you seeing in the frontline. If you went there at least once, you'd know your class bonus is tightly connected to HP and there is no logic where one adventurer alone nicks a fort with his 7K HP avoiding flag negative bonuses. And you're saying adventurers will win if HP gets capped? You blind or something?

And what about workers? Aren't they dodging machines on worker tower? Oh, you didn't know? Maybe you should try to respec into HP worker on w13 then try it. But why would you, it's not that you really have a town, team, friends or whatever on w13 to try to really help them in forts.

And you're not the only one against this. All players who can't play the minigame without being a tank and without hiding behind a tank will be against this.

Right to start off whats this got to do about me hmmm ? you want to know why I left CRowbar i finished the town, if you bothered to look at my build/medals your see im a pure builder.
As for W12 I get bored never really found a home there I'd admit I do alot of jumping there thoguh I always message the town founder saying can I do some shopping and stay for a short while, offering a daily fee too.
So get off my back man !!!

I didnt say it would kill duelers class , I said duelers BONUS it will low their criticals.
"It will kill duelers class fort bonus too"
Though kill was maybe abit harsh will decrease the amoutn of damage one could cause, that better ?

Right adventurers class is rubbish is it ? thats your problem then, you use the bonuses to your advantage if you cant use them your not very skilled. And you made the wrong choice.
Any tank adventurers will tell you its a great bonus in fort battles. With any class you need HP in fort battles the leadership, aim , dodge and stamina/hidding can only do so much for you. Same really in duels, it's the luck to hit/miss depending on your victim.

Not 1 adventurer though a gang will rock, same goes for soldiers at the present time 1 cant do it though a gang can. Where again did I say 1 ? please if your gonna run off my post get your facts right :)
Ouch cut me right to the core Joxer that one was low wasnt it, though whats your point ? im all for keeping HP in the game. You cap it you wont be able to have any class that can take the full wack of the other side for more than afew rounds. Though I guess thats what you want the game to be shorter ?

Anyways I thought that was pretty pointless Joxer, you didnt really have a point !

Instead of capping HP what about new fort weapons or increase existing weapons, abit more damage yeah ?
As for more rounds Thats not a bad idea how ever, think how long battles will go on for a battle at the moment can last a good hour. The first round still needs to be halved.
 
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DeletedUser22685

True, but not entirely :)

A few months ago, one of the more common strategies was:
- Start on one side and move north
- Clear towers
- Mount both towers, and have a shootout

Right now, it's more common to see:
- Start on one side and move north
- Staying north with the intent to clear towers, but with little or no success
- Bolt for flag, while there is still enough HP to get to flag and hold it for 5 rounds

I've seen battles where almost everyone is up north, and most of them online. And you still have to do a flagrush, because the defenders manage to hold the towers long enough to nerf the little HP advantage the attackers have in numbers from the start.
I guess the world I'm talking about is in an even worse state than yours. It's very rare for a fort to be won in any way other than planned flag rush from the south, and it's sad in itself that forts are continually allowed to be taken that way.
 

DeletedUser

I guess the world I'm talking about is in an even worse state than yours. It's very rare for a fort to be won in any way other than planned flag rush from the south, and it's sad in itself that forts are continually allowed to be taken that way.

Which world is that futurama ? and do you think GG's stacking might be playing apart in that victory ?
 

DeletedUser22575

I think it is safe to say that fort fighting is a segment of the game that only a minority of the total West players participate in.

So if you are looking at adjusting the premmie HP character advantage for soldiers because of fort fighting you are not only looking to adjust this character advantage for the benefit of the minority of players who fort fight, you are looking at adjusting a character benefit of one particular class that premmie players pay for..

NO to this.

Players who fort fight need to find another solution besides penalizing all of the other players who do not fort fight.

Fort fighting builds are only one of the many different types of builds possible for this game irregardless of class.

If you are examining the possibility of limiting SP in Health to say the suggested 200 SP in all fairness you need to cap SP at 200 for any skill for every build. Bottom line it is not fair to tell one Build (fort fighters) that they are limited to a skill cap of 200 SP while shooters, adventures, etc, can have a skill of 300, etc.

While HP may be a problem with the change to the GG stacking it is going to be the same problem that existed before the introduction of the GG although it seems to be more of a problem and more extreme than before then.

However the introduction of SP caps produces "cookie cutter characters" limiting the players ability to have "individualized" characters.

The solution is not the introduction of game controlled caps, but this is an issue that Town Leaders working with other town leaders in worlds need to handle on their own through self help.

Quite simply if HP are a problem adversely effecting fort fighting and you have a player who is over say 4k HP tell them that in order to stay a member of your town they need to adjust their HP to the world agreed upon cap.

If players over that cap show up at fort fights they need to not be ranked by either side.

Players over this limit will get the message and adjust their sps if they want to fort fight if the Town and Alliance leaders work together on this issue.

And if they can't organize and work together on this issue to do this, or if they can't enforce this in a world on their own then the bottom line is they probably can't come up with the 80% vote requirement to get any change to pass either.
 

DeletedUser

So get off my back man !!!
I wish I could say your wish is my command. But I can't and won't.

I didnt say it would kill duelers class , I said duelers BONUS it will low their criticals.
"It will kill duelers class fort bonus too"
It will kill chestgetting in 99% fights to one class. It won't kill duelers's crits, but will enable more chests to other classes, not just one like it is now.

Right adventurers class is rubbish is it ? thats your problem then,
Adventurer class bonuses are the second worst thing that happened to the west game. Luckily there exists another thing that sits on the throne of the biggest design fail in this game - the skillbuying premium.

you use the bonuses to your advantage if you cant use them your not very skilled.
Now this sentence is definetly a mystery to me... You saying I'm not very skilled? Or I'm not using adv. bonuses to my advantage? Or maybe both?

And you made the wrong choice.
I made many choices in this game. Yes, I did. But so far I don't see a wrong one.
 

DeletedUser

I guess the world I'm talking about is in an even worse state than yours. It's very rare for a fort to be won in any way other than planned flag rush from the south, and it's sad in itself that forts are continually allowed to be taken that way.

I might have painted the picture a little darker than it really is, cause I do still have fights where swapping and manuevering is the key to a win. However those are older worlds with less pure HP players and where the majority agree that a flag rush is kind of a cheap way to win.

Might be possible that removing the flag is a better way to create more entertaining fights, but I guess thats a discussion for another thread :)

I still think that capping the HP, would make it both more profitable to come up with an alternative plan, aswell as making flagrushes atleast a bit harder to do.


Crikey TJ Tuttle , you just saved my bacon, very nicely put +1 REP.

No fun fighting alone ;)

Although I disagree with most of your views, increasing fort weapon damage aswell as waiting to see what happens when they remove the GG stacking bonus, seems like good suggestions though.

The latter will probably happen anyhow, cause I doubt this idea will get passed on before they remove the stackable bonus.
 

DeletedUser

If you are examining the possibility of limiting SP in Health to say the suggested 200 SP in all fairness you need to cap SP at 200 for any skill for every build. Bottom line it is not fair to tell one Build (fort fighters) that they are limited to a skill cap of 200 SP while shooters, adventures, etc, can have a skill of 300, etc.

Your analogy is flawed. Shooting isn't capped? As a dueling skill it sure as hell does have a soft cap. You can only do so much damage. As I said, health shouldn't be capped, but the effect on hit points should be just as every single dueling and fort skill suffers diminishing returns.

While HP may be a problem with the change to the GG stacking it is going to be the same problem that existed before the introduction of the GG although it seems to be more of a problem and more extreme than before then.

You seem to think hp is identical to the time before GGs became common. It's been steadily rising and will continue to do so. As more and more people go pure health and people see that there's no serious decline in performance in fort battles, it will continue to snowball and become an even more serious issue.

The alternative to giving health a cap, hard or soft, is making fort skills more important by raising their effectiveness and lowering the base chance to hit, but one of the great things about fort battles is that anyone with any build can participate and do well. As much as the hardcore fort fighters with their golden guns and hit points get all the attention, we need the others to keep coming to fill battles.
 

DeletedUser22575

You are correct Elmry there is a soft cap. However it is a "soft cap" and what is being discussed here is a "hard cap". A soft cap would be a different story.

You are incorrect in the fact that I am not aware of the increase in the HP monsters in fort fighting. I am well aware of it.

But will it really increase with the demise of the GG stacking bonus or will it self regulate? Who knows at this point. In part the HP monsters became more prevalent due to players feeling they needed more HP's to be able to survive more than a few rounds in a fort fight. Without the GG stacking bonus they may well move some of those SP's to other areas if they can survive fort fights without the need for extreme HPs so that they are more balanced and can achieve more in other areas such as jobs or quests.

You are correct that we need players regardless of build to participate in fort fighting. But I do disagree in your assessment that the HP monster build will become more prevalent in the future despite the demise of the GG stacking bonus. I think the possibility of it self regulating is just as strong at this point.

In reality no one knows for sure what will be the result of the GG stacking bonus demise and at this point until we do know for sure any action is premature IMO.

IMO if any action is needed it should not be through "built in" limits such as a "hard cap. While "soft caps" are a possibility I still believe that before any caps are put in place it is up to not only the Town and Alliance leaders to regulate HP's in their worlds through town and alliance membership requirements as I previously stated. Additionally it is also up to the players to participate in self regulation to help make fort fighting more enjoyable for all, not develope a "big brother" system where it is up to the developers to impose "cookie cutter" limitations for the players. Game players need to accept some responsibility for the results of their builds and actions, not players constantly looking to the Devs to hold their hands and protect them.

Irregardless if there is going to be a "hard cap" for SP's for one build there should be a SP limit for all builds. If you are going to directly limit SP's you are indirectly going to force fort fighters to do more balanced builds, and if you are going to force one build to be more balanced overall there is nothing wrong with and it is fair to force all builds to be more balanced overall.

Bottom line I am opposed to any unnecessary game play regulation by the Devs. We do not want to turn them into a mini version of the US Government and their regulatory propensity. :)
 
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DeletedUser

You are correct Elmry there is a soft cap. However it is a "soft cap" and what is being discussed here is a "hard cap". A soft cap would be a different story.

The point of the discussion of an idea is not for everyone just to say whether they love or hate the idea as is, but to develop it. The fact that the OP suggested a hard cap is completely meaningless. If a soft cap works better and is more consistent with other skills, the suggestion can be changed to a soft cap.
 

DeletedUser22575

The point of the discussion of an idea is not for everyone just to say whether they love or hate the idea as is, but to develop it. The fact that the OP suggested a hard cap is completely meaningless. If a soft cap works better and is more consistent with other skills, the suggestion can be changed to a soft cap.

I have no real objection to a "soft cap" and would support one if it is needed...after we found out what the real results of the loss of the GG stacking bonus really turns out to be in regards to HP.
 

DeletedUser

Shooting isn't capped? As a dueling skill it sure as hell does have a soft cap. You can only do so much damage.
Dueling and fortfighting are two separate worlds. Passive and active playing. Nonclicking and clickfest wannabe. Nonminigame and minigame. No item reward and item reward. Energy and nonenergy. Motivation and nonmotivation. Level controlled and nonlevel controlled.

There is no logical reason to taint fort battles with stuff from the current duel system.
I do respect your wishes, but I don't want any soft caps in fort fights and I don't want anything from the current duel system in fort battle minigame.
Besides, soft caps lead to undisclosed formulas. Do we really need another "secret" formula?
 

DeletedUser9470

I think uber tanking is absolute nonesense.
ubertanking is the result of tests performed by players to see what fort skill is most important.
it turned out that whatever side you were on, no matter what aim, dodge, hiding or stamina or leadership you had, that your hit/miss ratio was very similar.
tests proved that because of this the winner of a fort fight would always be the one with more hp.
as simple as that.
a 2 year old could make an uber fortfighting winner. As such inno should be made to feel embarrassed about the situation.
maybe they already are?

My point is that if other fort skills were more important then the HP build would simply disappear.

So make other fort skills a lot more important.
 
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