Limit the Health Skill

HelenBack

Well-Known Member
Proposal
Limit the maximum Health a character can have by diminishing returns just like the other fort skills.


Update:
My original idea was for a hard cap... But from the discussions and other options that have been posted, I believe a diminishing return would be a far better option and one that more people may agree to.

By far the best thought out option for limiting the health skill ( a HUGE thank you to Kayakpaddler! ):
:cool:

Here's a proposal for how you might incorporate diminishing returns onto HP. It is for non-soldiers, soldiers bonus would remain the same (50% more for non-premium).

Health of 1-150 each point gives 10 HP (same as now)
Health of 151-200 each point gives 8HP
Health of 201-250 each point gives 6HP
Health of 251-300 each point gives 4HP
Health above 300 each point gives 2HP

This would mean for the change would have no (or almost no) effect for duelers and others that aren't pumping points into Health.

Assuming level 100:
Someone with 150 health points would still have 2590, 3340, 4090 HP (non-soldier, soldier, premium soldier)
200 health points would go from (3090, 4090, 5090) to (2990, 3940, 4890)
250 health points would go from (3590, 4840, 6090) to (3290, 4390, 5490)
300 health points would go from (4090, 5590, 7090) to (3490, 4690, 5890)
350 health points would go from (4590, 6340, 8090) to (3590, 4840, 6090)
500 health points would go from (6090, 8590, 11090) to (3890, 5290, 6690)

Every other skill has diminishing returns in battles and dueling. HP as the most important battle skill ought to have diminishing returns as well. This is just an example of what the formula might look like, the exact formula could be tweaked. I think it makes sense to implement something like this regardless of other changes made.

Other options (Thanks for the ideas!):

  1. Every other fort and dueling skill has diminishing returns, and health should be no different. If we're saying 4k is a reasonable limit for a non-soldier, then you should still be able to go pure health, but you won't get 10 hp per health point beyond that, or just use a curve of some sort, so a very small about of SP gives you more than 10 hp per SP. (Elmyr)
    • Make an exponential HP scale, like HP a * x^b, where x is the amount of SP in health, and a,b are some numbers to be determined. That will treat health like any other fort skill. (Galen - added to Elmyr's post)
    • I was thinking more of something like the ^0.4 of other fort skills, but that would work. (Elmyr)
  2. At the moment it adds 10 health per skill point, dropping that to 6, 7 or 8 could work. (LadyGaga)
  3. Quoted Kayakpaddler's complete breakdown of one option to show what the HP will look like if this goes into effect (thanks!).


Current Workaround
People put their skill points in other useful skills.

Details

See Kayakpaddler's work above...

Maximum 5-6K? This would still give them an advantage to having more health without having the insane "uber-tank" build. I would rather see 4-5K... But added another 1K to make it 5-6K since I'm sure those who have the "uber-tank" build will be upset about having to reduce by more than half. I'm open to suggestions for the actual amount to set the limit at.

There should probably be a max for a group of levels. For example (as an idea):
Up to level 40 = 4K
Level 41-80 = 5K
Level 81+ = 6K

Those with extra HP in health would just have the extra skills removed and available to be placed elsewhere. This should be done on the server rather than forcing them to use the shaman to remove the skills. This way there would be no cost to them. They could then place those extra skills wherever they wished.


Abuse Prevention
No loopholes... It would be capped at the server. Anyone found to have more than the capped amount would be reported.

Visual Aids
N/A

Summary
The "uber-tank" build is changing the general fort fighting community to an elite prestigious uber-tanks only fort fighting community. They have reduced fort battles from using real skills and strategy to "just get the tanks to the flag and sit there".

Regular players are killed quickly in fort battles and some have been giving up on fort fighting. This leads to having less and less fort fighters as more people stop going to battles. This could also lead to people leaving that world or possibly the game.

The game has many more aspects to it than fort fighting. So many people are skilled for various things and enjoy going to fort battles as another option. Why should one group of people reduce the enjoyment of the game for so many others? If fort battles keep going the way they are, soon it will just be a few elite fort fighters fighting amongst themselves.

This would be a benefit to the community as a whole since more people would be going to fort battles and staying on the world or in the game. Having more people in a fort battle will make them more enjoyable and challenging. This would also keep more worlds alive with activity for a longer period of time.

I believe that the amount of people leaving would be reduced. I can't generate any factual data for you. Some have told me that's why they were leaving, but that would be hearsay. Unless they reply to this themselves, I can only speak on their behalf.

Administration
Does this idea meet the Ideas Guidelines & Criteria? Yes/No
Does this idea appear on any of the Previously Suggested Ideas List? Yes/No

 
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Galen M

i like the principle of this idea, but i think it needs some technical changes:

First of all, how would gear work? If I have 6k hp without gear, does that mean I get health sp put back in to the shaman when I get dressed?

Second, what about (premium) soldier bonus? A non-premium soldier has 6k hp, and then all of the sudden he activates class premium. Where do those extra health points go? Do they get put back in the shaman? Then, say the soldier spends the sp and deactivates his class premium, does he get the sp back in the shaman, so he can get back to 6k hp?

Third, how will leveling work? If I have 6k hp at level 81, with each level I gain 10 hp, so does 1 sp from health go back to the shaman with each level?

Lastly, I think that even 6k hp is too high per person. I think 4k is more reasonable. Or, how about this: simply limit the amount of SP in health (including Strength AP) to 200. That is 2000 HP from SP, 800 from gear, and 1200 base (for level 120). That is 4000 HP, 6000 for a soldier, 8000 for a premium soldier. However, I would agree with someone like Joxer, who would reduce the soldier bonus to 25%, so it would be 5000 for soldier, 6000 for premium soldier.

All in all, though, a good idea.
 

Elmyr

I agree with the sentiment but not the specific mechanics. Every other fort and dueling skill has diminishing returns, and health should be no different. If we're saying 4k is a reasonable limit for a non-soldier, then you should still be able to go pure health, but you won't get 10 hp per health point beyond that, or just use a curve of some sort, so a very small about of SP gives you more than 10 hp per SP.
 

Dirty rotten Billy

Sorry but I think your talking rubbish, though maybe im not on this world you play where HP tanks rule. Have you hear of blocking them before getting to the flag ?
Also get more duelers to your battles, criticals of 800 damage plus in 1 hit whats the problem ?

If you remove HP limit you remove amount of XP fighters will get and also how exactly do you expect to refund pure HP players ? you cant just take it away. This how already been mentioned before long time ago. Might have been under saloon, anyways I dont think it's a problem.

If that wasnt clear :D im against your idea, the game cant be balanced, just because your good at XP jobs though not so hot in fort battles they shouldnt be punished for it. Or maybe your a resistant dueler. You see my point, it's a big choice to do it at the cost of being a dueling target and rubbish at jobs.

Here is it once mentioned
http://forum.the-west.net/showthread.php?t=41278&highlight=limit+health
 
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Elmyr

Also get more duelers to your battles, criticals of 800 damage plus in 1 hit whats the problem ?
We currently have GG bonuses stacking, which is the main thing keeping hp from unbalancing fort battles. What happens when that's gone? You really think a few duelers are enough to make up the difference? There aren't a huge number of duelers on newer worlds. Most of the serious fort fighters on those worlds started before classes were given fort battle bonuses, so there are huge numbers of the only class that had a fort bonus before then, soldiers. Old worlds have the most duelers from a) back when a good number of people chose class based on the avatars and b) fort fighters starting accounts on older worlds because they wanted those crits for themselves. You say SP can't be refunded, but you apparently think everyone else should start over from scratch with a dueler.
 

Galen M

I agree with the sentiment but not the specific mechanics. Every other fort and dueling skill has diminishing returns, and health should be no different. If we're saying 4k is a reasonable limit for a non-soldier, then you should still be able to go pure health, but you won't get 10 hp per health point beyond that, or just use a curve of some sort, so a very small about of SP gives you more than 10 hp per SP.
This is a very good amendment. Make an exponential HP scale, like HP a * x^b, where x is the amount of SP in health, and a,b are some numbers to be determined. That will treat health like any other fort skill.
 

Dirty rotten Billy

We currently have GG bonuses stacking, which is the main thing keeping hp from unbalancing fort battles. What happens when that's gone? You really think a few duelers are enough to make up the difference? There aren't a huge number of duelers on newer worlds. Most of the serious fort fighters on those worlds started before classes were given fort battle bonuses, so there are huge numbers of the only class that had a fort bonus before then, soldiers. Old worlds have the most duelers from a) back when a good number of people chose class based on the avatars and b) fort fighters starting accounts on older worlds because they wanted those crits for themselves. You say SP can't be refunded, but you apparently think everyone else should start over from scratch with a dueler.
Yeah well that will be gone soon enough, GG stacking gone will let more hits land. I didnt say thats your answer but try and get afew there wouldnt hurt.

"You say SP can't be refunded" where did I say that please ? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: I said and I quote "how exactly do you expect to refund pure HP players ? you cant just take it away." You havent mentioned what will be done for thoughs player if this idea goes through, which it wont.
Your best bet is to all stick on abit more HP on and deal with it. Your crying like workers after being dueled, suck it up !!!
 

Elmyr

Your crying like workers after being dueled, suck it up !!!
I have a 6k hp soldier and two 4k hp adventurers. I also have two golden guns and I was for the removal of stacking the bonuses. Don't assume because I think an idea would add some balance means it wouldn't affect me too.
 

Dirty rotten Billy

JoxerTM

GG stacking is going to be removed. We're left with it's base damage (+15).
With that gone, any total of HP above 6000 = invincible player.

Do cap total health possible. I don't care if it will be 6000 or maybe less. Just cap it!
When this comes to voting I'll say yes.

Stars? 5, ofc.
 

l8dygaga

Well-Known Member
I think nerfing the skill HP would be a better idea. At the moment it adds 10 health per skill point, dropping that to 6, 7 or 8 could work. Capping it would definitely be a poor choice.
 

HelenBack

Well-Known Member
Wow! Some great ideas came from this... Thanks!

i like the principle of this idea, but i think it needs some technical changes:

Lastly, I think that even 6k hp is too high per person. I think 4k is more reasonable. Or, how about this: simply limit the amount of SP in health (including Strength AP) to 200. That is 2000 HP from SP, 800 from gear, and 1200 base (for level 120). That is 4000 HP, 6000 for a soldier, 8000 for a premium soldier. However, I would agree with someone like Joxer, who would reduce the soldier bonus to 25%, so it would be 5000 for soldier, 6000 for premium soldier.
I agree... I think 4K would be plenty... However, I think those who already have the "uber-tank" build would really be upset to be limited to 4K. So a compromise would be 6K. I also like the idea of the Soldier bonus being reduced a bit... Even if most of my characters are Soldiers. I'd be willing to have them all trimmed down a bit if it helped balance the game for everyone.

I agree with the sentiment but not the specific mechanics. Every other fort and dueling skill has diminishing returns, and health should be no different. If we're saying 4k is a reasonable limit for a non-soldier, then you should still be able to go pure health, but you won't get 10 hp per health point beyond that, or just use a curve of some sort, so a very small about of SP gives you more than 10 hp per SP.
This is a very good amendment. Make an exponential HP scale, like HP a * x^b, where x is the amount of SP in health, and a,b are some numbers to be determined. That will treat health like any other fort skill.
I wasn't sure what the best way would be to limit the HP, but I really like the idea of having an exponential scale as Elmyr and Galen pointed out. Sure they can stack more skills onto Health, but they won't get the same effect. I've heard there is a limit like that on Shooting and Vigor skills... Can't recall where I saw/heard that, but I believe anything over 100 sp also has an exponential degrade in their effect.


Yeah well that will be gone soon enough, GG stacking gone will let more hits land. I didnt say thats your answer but try and get afew there wouldnt hurt.
Your best bet is to all stick on abit more HP on and deal with it. Your crying like workers after being dueled, suck it up !!!
Well that's the problem, Billy... What if all those "regular" folks want to be able to enjoy the rest of the game options as well? Dueling, questing... By bloating up HP, they can no longer do most of the other jobs anymore. So, they give up on fort battles even if they enjoy them. It's no longer enjoyable if they get killed or can't kill an uber-tank. This is more about making fort battles more balanced than just someone wanting to win battles. This is becoming an issue on all worlds. And some in the alliances I'm in, there are "uber-tanks". They bloat up because the enemy does, the enemy sees that and bloats up even more... Where does it end? I don't want a situation like on the .pl servers here... thanks.
;)

GG stacking is going to be removed. We're left with it's base damage (+15).
With that gone, any total of HP above 6000 = invincible player.

Do cap total health possible. I don't care if it will be 6000 or maybe less. Just cap it!
When this comes to voting I'll say yes.

Stars? 5, ofc.
Thanks Joxer... That's another reason for this request. As soon as the GGs no longer have their stacking bonus (which completely destroyed regular folks), the uber-tanks will be difficult to take down. So to balance the fort battles a bit more, the HP needs to also be brought down to a more manageable level. Dueler crits can only do so much.... and, really, there aren't many Duelers around.

Thanks to all those who have given great feedback and ideas.
:)
 

JoxerTM

I think nerfing the skill HP would be a better idea. At the moment it adds 10 health per skill point, dropping that to 6, 7 or 8 could work. Capping it would definitely be a poor choice.
For each skill point given to the skill health points you receive an additional 5 health points for your character. (means additional +10 if premium).

Now... If we'll say one point in HP brings 7 health, then the bonus with premium should also add +7 health, right? But the bonus without premium? 3.5 health? :)
 

DeletedUser22493

Im a bigger fan of capping it, then nerfing it. Soldiers bonus should be that they generally have more HP then everyone else.

I like the idea tho.
 

l8dygaga

Well-Known Member
For each skill point given to the skill health points you receive an additional 5 health points for your character. (means additional +10 if premium).

Now... If we'll say one point in HP brings 7 health, then the bonus with premium should also add +7 health, right? But the bonus without premium? 3.5 health? :)
Oh yeah, that's right. I forgot 10 is for premium soldiers.
 

Dirty rotten Billy

Proposal
Limit the maximum Health a character can have.

Options (Thanks for the ideas):

  1. Every other fort and dueling skill has diminishing returns, and health should be no different. If we're saying 4k is a reasonable limit for a non-soldier, then you should still be able to go pure health, but you won't get 10 hp per health point beyond that, or just use a curve of some sort, so a very small about of SP gives you more than 10 hp per SP. (Elmyr)
I have a 6k hp soldier and two 4k hp adventurers. I also have two golden guns and I was for the removal of stacking the bonuses. Don't assume because I think an idea would add some balance means it wouldn't affect me too.
Come on where is the voice of reason here, thats pretty convenient 4k HP wouldn't you say Elmyr. NO, NO, NO & NO.....I would put good money on most here that want it are adventurers. Oh wait of course the adventurers dodge bonus hmm, im not that smart but surely that can really absorb damage which a soldiers HP bonus does right.
You make that weaker I say you make adventurers dodge weaker, only fair after all the duelers high criticals will be lower without big tanks to aim at.

Still think this is silly to even discuse before GG stack is removed, GG stack really changed the way fort battles were.
 

sidp2201

Well-Known Member
Come on where is the voice of reason here, thats pretty convenient 4k HP wouldn't you say Elmyr. NO, NO, NO & NO.....I would put good money on most here that want it are adventurers. Oh wait of course the adventurers dodge bonus hmm, im not that smart but surely that can really absorb damage which a soldiers HP bonus does right.
You make that weaker I say you make adventurers dodge weaker, only fair after all the duelers high criticals will be lower without big tanks to aim at.

Still think this is silly to even discuse before GG stack is removed, GG stack really changed the way fort battles were.
Ad bonus are not worth the effort.
I can quote a battle from today where i took 6 hits in the first round and died :(
I noticed it only kicks is when you got low hp people hiding behind you :(
 

Dirty rotten Billy

Ad bonus are not worth the effort.
I can quote a battle from today where i took 6 hits in the first round and died :(
I noticed it only kicks is when you got low hp people hiding behind you :(
Do you have premium class ? and 4k HP ? doesnt sound like you have 4k HP, unless you where hit with criticals.
 

Dirty rotten Billy

ahhh... it pains my 11K soldier greatly, but HP has to be dealt with. so its a YES from me
Right so your gonna be happy with them stripping your bonus though not touching the adventurers class ? It will kill duelers class fort bonus too. Less XP for all players that fight in fort battles.

To me this seems like a win , win for adventurers only ! I hope if this makes it to the vote all the silent guys come out of the wood work to vote NO !
I can't be the only one against this ? am I ?