DeletedUser36559
The ones who are right at the top of the xp dueling rankings end up hitting people who have reskilled to adventurers or workers so they also and few to no targets to fight.
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The ones who are right at the top of the xp dueling rankings end up hitting people who have reskilled to adventurers or workers so they also and few to no targets to fight.
DeletedUser23737
Big John1970,
You make 2 errors in your statement imo.
1) The REAL duelers only xp duel.
Well I do both, and I am no more real for doing xp dueling than for doing zero/low mot dueling. I meet no tougher duelers when xp dueling than when zero mot dueling. I got to #1 xp dueler in case you were wondering.
((I wonder what a 'REAL' fort fighter does... only battle when every player is a higher level than them?? or does a 'REAL' worker only build the town??))
2) Dueling is about more than fighting other duelers.
While it is satisfying to beat a higher level dueler, this satisfaction was lessened when skill buying became an option. The reason? Anytime I win, the first thought from my opponent is "did he buy skills"... not... (and it used to be this way) "what a good dueler that guy must be". Ask any top dueler... they will say the same.
Also, dueling is a legitimate way to earn income.
Also dueling is a legitimate way to bring a town together. Whether I hit a player in revenge for dueling one of my town members, or whether I hit the opposition fort fighters before a battle to lessen their health advantage. It is all part of the dueler helping their town/alliance. Xp dueling removes this fun part of the game.
So when my duel level is so high I can only hit other high level duelers (and on Dakota this was between 0 and 5 players) then my ability to contribute to a town positively has been dramatically reduced.
Imagine if you will... that every fort battle win you had meant you gained some kind of ranking where you could no longer join every battle? or where in a battle there were lower level players that you were unable to hit because your level was so much higher?
Imagine if you were KO'd in a battle... that you couldn't partake in a battle for 24? 48? or 72 hours.
Imagine if the more battles you fought in, then the less experience you would gain from it because your battle motivation went down.
Lastly, imagine if the level 40 or 50 fort fighters were complaining that the 'big' fort fighters (lev 130-150) were always 'picking' on them in a battle... and acting cowardly... and bullying them??
Forters fight because they enjoy the battle.
In the same way, duelers duel because they enjoy the battle.
An idea?
Maybe a player (be she/he a worker or forter) could have a 'purse' account on them (like a bank account) that when a dueler initiates a duel, the dueler can choose to either shoot them (as is the current way) or they can opt to take a % of the 'purse' account, leaving the defender with their health and energy... but short a % of their purse. The dueler still gets a win and cash, the defender still keeps their health and energy... they just lose some cash.
You make 2 errors in your statement imo.
1) The REAL duelers only xp duel.
Well I do both, and I am no more real for doing xp dueling than for doing zero/low mot dueling. I meet no tougher duelers when xp dueling than when zero mot dueling. I got to #1 xp dueler in case you were wondering.
((I wonder what a 'REAL' fort fighter does... only battle when every player is a higher level than them?? or does a 'REAL' worker only build the town??))
2) Dueling is about more than fighting other duelers.
While it is satisfying to beat a higher level dueler, this satisfaction was lessened when skill buying became an option. The reason? Anytime I win, the first thought from my opponent is "did he buy skills"... not... (and it used to be this way) "what a good dueler that guy must be". Ask any top dueler... they will say the same.
Also, dueling is a legitimate way to earn income.
Also dueling is a legitimate way to bring a town together. Whether I hit a player in revenge for dueling one of my town members, or whether I hit the opposition fort fighters before a battle to lessen their health advantage. It is all part of the dueler helping their town/alliance. Xp dueling removes this fun part of the game.
So when my duel level is so high I can only hit other high level duelers (and on Dakota this was between 0 and 5 players) then my ability to contribute to a town positively has been dramatically reduced.
Imagine if you will... that every fort battle win you had meant you gained some kind of ranking where you could no longer join every battle? or where in a battle there were lower level players that you were unable to hit because your level was so much higher?
Imagine if you were KO'd in a battle... that you couldn't partake in a battle for 24? 48? or 72 hours.
Imagine if the more battles you fought in, then the less experience you would gain from it because your battle motivation went down.
Lastly, imagine if the level 40 or 50 fort fighters were complaining that the 'big' fort fighters (lev 130-150) were always 'picking' on them in a battle... and acting cowardly... and bullying them??
Forters fight because they enjoy the battle.
In the same way, duelers duel because they enjoy the battle.
An idea?
Maybe a player (be she/he a worker or forter) could have a 'purse' account on them (like a bank account) that when a dueler initiates a duel, the dueler can choose to either shoot them (as is the current way) or they can opt to take a % of the 'purse' account, leaving the defender with their health and energy... but short a % of their purse. The dueler still gets a win and cash, the defender still keeps their health and energy... they just lose some cash.
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DeletedUser
Sorry Max. I didn't say, I only play on W1 where skills cannot be bought.
That's a good point you made about the 'purse' though. It does seem a little too 'real life' though for Inno. Remember this game has gone from being one of - if not THE - flagship game for them, to being a backwash that they no longer seem to be interested in selling to the general public.
I admit that I was mostly griping because too many times, I see these 'real duellers' bragging about all the wins they have in their duels, when in reality, about 90% of those wins were against people wearing work-clothes who had little to no chance of defending themselves and giving the dueller a 'good fight'.
I accept that that is part of the game, but it just annoys me so when they say something like '90 wins - all KO - zero defeats'. Yeah? I donned my duelling gear and fought one of these people and guess what? I won!
It's like every walk of life though, you have your good eggs and your bad eggs. But I digress.
The best way to get more people into the game, the best way to get more people for the duellers to fight is to ADVERTISE! But they don't seem to be interested in that anymore. So the only way new players will join this game is through word-of-mouth or if they happen to stumble upon it by accident.
I agree that the whole duelling-system is messed up. The more they try to 'fix' it, the more of a mess they make of it.
Many suggestions have been put forward on how to make the game better, how to make duelling more fun for those who enjoy it, but they fall on deaf ears.
Suggestions get forwarded to the dev's only for them to say, "Yeah, put it on the pile." while they come up with the next big thing for Grepolis and FoE.
By the way, I did say that I could be wrong about my previous post.
That's a good point you made about the 'purse' though. It does seem a little too 'real life' though for Inno. Remember this game has gone from being one of - if not THE - flagship game for them, to being a backwash that they no longer seem to be interested in selling to the general public.
I admit that I was mostly griping because too many times, I see these 'real duellers' bragging about all the wins they have in their duels, when in reality, about 90% of those wins were against people wearing work-clothes who had little to no chance of defending themselves and giving the dueller a 'good fight'.
I accept that that is part of the game, but it just annoys me so when they say something like '90 wins - all KO - zero defeats'. Yeah? I donned my duelling gear and fought one of these people and guess what? I won!
It's like every walk of life though, you have your good eggs and your bad eggs. But I digress.
The best way to get more people into the game, the best way to get more people for the duellers to fight is to ADVERTISE! But they don't seem to be interested in that anymore. So the only way new players will join this game is through word-of-mouth or if they happen to stumble upon it by accident.
I agree that the whole duelling-system is messed up. The more they try to 'fix' it, the more of a mess they make of it.
Many suggestions have been put forward on how to make the game better, how to make duelling more fun for those who enjoy it, but they fall on deaf ears.
Suggestions get forwarded to the dev's only for them to say, "Yeah, put it on the pile." while they come up with the next big thing for Grepolis and FoE.
By the way, I did say that I could be wrong about my previous post.
DeletedUser35101
Main problem, as i see it.. is setup on who we can duel..
My lvl 150 character (with DL of 212 atm)..
When i open up my duel window now and sort it by DL.. lowest DL there is 152 and some with that DL have under 100 RL ..
So if i was to reskill that character into dueling.. there is nothing (but me myself) in game that can stop me on dueling that lvl 96 guy (with having over 50 RL difference and that is many AP / SP!)
But.. how fair is that?! Sure guy "may have bought skills" and may win in it.. but how high is that chance and how many times?
What most will think is: "Hey there is an easy win, good for stats!" And most will come back each day to duel that guy.
I just don't think this is fair..
My lvl 150 character (with DL of 212 atm)..
When i open up my duel window now and sort it by DL.. lowest DL there is 152 and some with that DL have under 100 RL ..
So if i was to reskill that character into dueling.. there is nothing (but me myself) in game that can stop me on dueling that lvl 96 guy (with having over 50 RL difference and that is many AP / SP!)
But.. how fair is that?! Sure guy "may have bought skills" and may win in it.. but how high is that chance and how many times?
What most will think is: "Hey there is an easy win, good for stats!" And most will come back each day to duel that guy.
I just don't think this is fair..
DeletedUser37520
The best way of solving this problem is to do as Black Max said previously in this thread, scrap the whole concept of dueling level. It's an awful feature that has never worked out. I don't agree with -20 and +20 in level however, I would much rather have a dueling formula similar to the one today, just being based on the normal level instead.
As it stands now, the formulas are the following:
Max Duel Level of Opponent = (7 * Your Duelling Level + 4) / 5
Min Duel Level of Opponent = (5 * Your Duelling Level + 4) / 7
I propose a change of them to the following:
Max Level of Opponent = (6 * Your Duelling Level + 4) / 5
Min Level of Opponent = (5 * Your Duelling Level + 4) / 6
If it were to be changed to be based on normal level instead of duel level we would obviously have to decrease the range of which a player can duel. Therefore I've tweaked the formula a little. With my proposed change, a player in level 100 could duel other players between 84 and 121 (120,8) while a player in level 150 will be able to duel players down to level 126 (125,66).
I honestly doesn't see a downside with this system. It would allow players to face off against other players close to their own level and skill (excluding skill buying). This would make it so that nobody will get too high of a duel level to be able to duel other players while also solving the "problem" with ZMD-duelers since they can now get challenged by any other dueler in their own level.
As it stands now, the formulas are the following:
Max Duel Level of Opponent = (7 * Your Duelling Level + 4) / 5
Min Duel Level of Opponent = (5 * Your Duelling Level + 4) / 7
I propose a change of them to the following:
Max Level of Opponent = (6 * Your Duelling Level + 4) / 5
Min Level of Opponent = (5 * Your Duelling Level + 4) / 6
If it were to be changed to be based on normal level instead of duel level we would obviously have to decrease the range of which a player can duel. Therefore I've tweaked the formula a little. With my proposed change, a player in level 100 could duel other players between 84 and 121 (120,8) while a player in level 150 will be able to duel players down to level 126 (125,66).
I honestly doesn't see a downside with this system. It would allow players to face off against other players close to their own level and skill (excluding skill buying). This would make it so that nobody will get too high of a duel level to be able to duel other players while also solving the "problem" with ZMD-duelers since they can now get challenged by any other dueler in their own level.
DeletedUser36979
Changing dueling range won't help much, as long as losing duel experience is possble. Which is the only reason for the huge increase in bible duels, which actually angers some people, since they get their duel-level raised (by pushing?), because some lousy ZMD can't handle the heat, but just want to keep dueling the same easy targets he is used to.
If the ability was removed again, the duellevel of most people would slowly rise, faster for active duelers as it should, and the number of targets would slowly increase, since dodging the higher duelers are no longer possible.
Then the only way to lower your duel-experience would be not initiating duels, and have 3% (i think) removed after a while (30 or 45 day I think)
(and yes, I believe bible-duels are bordering the rules of pushing, since the attacker exploits the game mechanics to ensure a defeat, and thereby ensuring an experience increase for the defender)
The fact that only a loser initiates a duel with the intent to lose is a given
If the ability was removed again, the duellevel of most people would slowly rise, faster for active duelers as it should, and the number of targets would slowly increase, since dodging the higher duelers are no longer possible.
Then the only way to lower your duel-experience would be not initiating duels, and have 3% (i think) removed after a while (30 or 45 day I think)
(and yes, I believe bible-duels are bordering the rules of pushing, since the attacker exploits the game mechanics to ensure a defeat, and thereby ensuring an experience increase for the defender)
The fact that only a loser initiates a duel with the intent to lose is a given
DeletedUser36559
(and yes, I believe bible-duels are bordering the rules of pushing, since the attacker exploits the game mechanics to ensure a defeat, and thereby ensuring an experience increase for the defender)
The fact that only a loser initiates a duel with the intent to lose is a given
If bible-duels are bordering rules of pushing what about self-KO'ing for 72 hours peace, does that borderline the rules of pushing also since the defender gets 'x' xp + free win for stats.
DeletedUser36979
Simple, don't use the bible.
The problem with the bible is the 0-0 damage; you can't do any damage, and thereby eliminated the chance of a win, which can be considered exploiting the game mechanics, since defenders win draws.
Use a jug or other low-damage weapon instead for self-KO.
This can be a problem for the duelers, since they'll win most duels if they hit even once. But if they dress down, and use low-damage weapon, and change tactics, they still risk losing, but with a chance of winning.
The very fact that duelers want to lose duels to lower their own level is a problem, which reflects poorly on all duelers. What is a victory worth? Maybe the other guy lost on purpose
How many wins per loss does that guy do? :unsure: I could go on... the creditability of the entire dueling community goes down everytime a dueler loose, since no one can see if it was intented or not from the stats.Bible-slinging ZMD's: Grow some balls and face the heat instead, or go pick cotton.
(farmville is too complicated for ZMD's)DeletedUser
I use the bible, but only because I have no desire to duel or be duelled. Yes, I accept it is part of the game, but so are Fort Fights and you can choose not to participate in Fort Fights if you so wish, so I use the 72 hours respite to avoid duelling or being duelled.
The reason I use the bible is so that I do not inflict any damage on the dueller that I use to gain my protection. (Yes, I try to restrict to Duellers or - if none are close or they have a rubbish weapon equipped - a Soldier.)
The reason I use the bible is so that I do not inflict any damage on the dueller that I use to gain my protection. (Yes, I try to restrict to Duellers or - if none are close or they have a rubbish weapon equipped - a Soldier.)
DeletedUser23737
Anzian,
You are missing the point.
Please pay attention because your error of thought is a common one made by disgruntled workers/forters who have no real understanding of the value or fun of dueling. (imo)
Dueling is one of the best strategies this game presents.
I will say it again...
Reasons to duel:
1) To earn an income. (This means all players are potential revenue.)
2) To hit and weaken the enemy town's fort fighters before a fort battle.
3) To prove your "toughness" by dueling other duelers. ((This is problematic, as once a players "toughness" was easy to determine by their player level. Now with the ability to masquerade as (say) a Lev 120 player... yet you have bought ten levels of skills (10 attributes, 30 skills) so you are in fact a level 130 equivalent player... means "toughness" is all relative.
**I am not against skill buying as such... I just think it should be levels you can buy... much easier to gauge what a player is...)
4) To revenge duel a player who is attacking members of your town.
5) It is fun to wait to see what the result of a duel is. Sometimes you get a pleasant suprise... sometimes not.... sometimes just the thrill of winning is enough.
6) To try and get in a town's mortician. Notoriety is nice sometimes.
You are missing the point.
Please pay attention because your error of thought is a common one made by disgruntled workers/forters who have no real understanding of the value or fun of dueling. (imo)
Dueling is one of the best strategies this game presents.
I will say it again...
Reasons to duel:
1) To earn an income. (This means all players are potential revenue.)
2) To hit and weaken the enemy town's fort fighters before a fort battle.
3) To prove your "toughness"
by dueling other duelers. ((This is problematic, as once a players "toughness" was easy to determine by their player level. Now with the ability to masquerade as (say) a Lev 120 player... yet you have bought ten levels of skills (10 attributes, 30 skills) so you are in fact a level 130 equivalent player... means "toughness" is all relative.**I am not against skill buying as such... I just think it should be levels you can buy... much easier to gauge what a player is...)
4) To revenge duel a player who is attacking members of your town.
5) It is fun to wait to see what the result of a duel is. Sometimes you get a pleasant suprise... sometimes not.... sometimes just the thrill of winning is enough.
6) To try and get in a town's mortician. Notoriety is nice sometimes.
DeletedUser36979
Anzian,
You are missing the point.
Please pay attention because your error of thought is a common one made by disgruntled workers/forters who have no real understanding of the value or fun of dueling. (imo)
Dueling is one of the best strategies this game presents.
I will say it again...
Reasons to duel:
1) To earn an income. (This means all players are potential revenue.)
2) To hit and weaken the enemy town's fort fighters before a fort battle.
3) To prove your "toughness"
**I am not against skill buying as such... I just think it should be levels you can buy... much easier to gauge what a player is...)
4) To revenge duel a player who is attacking members of your town.
5) It is fun to wait to see what the result of a duel is. Sometimes you get a pleasant suprise... sometimes not.... sometimes just the thrill of winning is enough.
6) To try and get in a town's mortician. Notoriety is nice sometimes.
Get up to speed Max, I have no problem with real duelers that duel to win; I have a problem with ZMD cowards calling themselves duelers that duel to loose.
You failed to mention the reasons for initiating a duel with the intent of losing. Where is the fun in that? What do they try to prove? How much do they earn doing that? Is it some sort of revenge?
And buying skills just to loose duels, that is just plain dumb.
Morticians don't have a stats for most lost duels, so that can't be it either.
As I see it, that only weakens the creditability of the dueling community, and not the fortfighters, who just eat or drink something to fill health at the fort anyways
DeletedUser23737
Anzian,
The players who are currently equiping a bible and dueling to lose are doing this so they can lower their duel level. (You understand that every duel win, since the last update, now increases a player's duel level.)
This low duel level will enable them to do all the things I mentioned earlier. I.e: Still fully enjoy the West like they once did.
The real shame is that a dueling player has to now include losing duels as part of their game play to be able to enjoy the game as it once was.
This is not fun, proves nothing, earns them nothing and is no kind of revenge.
You mention fort fighters being able to take a buff to get health... but what you fail to see is just how many of these types of negative changes are being aimed at the dueling community.
The players who are currently equiping a bible and dueling to lose are doing this so they can lower their duel level. (You understand that every duel win, since the last update, now increases a player's duel level.)
This low duel level will enable them to do all the things I mentioned earlier. I.e: Still fully enjoy the West like they once did.
The real shame is that a dueling player has to now include losing duels as part of their game play to be able to enjoy the game as it once was.
This is not fun, proves nothing, earns them nothing and is no kind of revenge.
You mention fort fighters being able to take a buff to get health... but what you fail to see is just how many of these types of negative changes are being aimed at the dueling community.
DeletedUser36979
Aye, and it should... if i work, fortfight and quest, I gain experience and I increase in level... I have no way of lowering my level again, why should duelers have that option?
Also, I would be happy if my trader was secured 10% experience and full money, no matter how many times I do the job every day. Stop treating it as a curse... it is a blessing.
Why not just accept that dueling increases your level, and then adept and improve? Probably because then they'll have to duel duelers, and that is too hard for the bullies.
DeletedUser23737
Anzian,
Unfortunately for you, you have missed the reality that duelers have two types of levels.
A player level (like you have just mentioned) which increases with fort battles, xp from duels and jobs. This level I have no problem with.
What duelers face is another level called duel level.
It is this level that is solely given to dueling. The problem is duelers game become restricted by it, hence why players equip a bible, or were once zero mot duelers.
"Why not just accept that dueling increases your level, and then adept and improve? Probably because then they'll have to duel duelers, and that is too hard for the bullies"
You keep missing the point... sadly.
Dueling is about more than hitting high level duelers. Skill buying means you can no longer compare your win to another player... so.. there is no longer a challenge.
Dueling has many facets as I explained in earlier posts.
Unfortunately for you, you have missed the reality that duelers have two types of levels.
A player level (like you have just mentioned) which increases with fort battles, xp from duels and jobs. This level I have no problem with.
What duelers face is another level called duel level.
It is this level that is solely given to dueling. The problem is duelers game become restricted by it, hence why players equip a bible, or were once zero mot duelers.
"Why not just accept that dueling increases your level, and then adept and improve? Probably because then they'll have to duel duelers, and that is too hard for the bullies"
You keep missing the point... sadly.
Dueling is about more than hitting high level duelers. Skill buying means you can no longer compare your win to another player... so.. there is no longer a challenge.
Dueling has many facets as I explained in earlier posts.
DeletedUser14006
Funny to log in after so long to see the longest running debate on the west still going strong, still being fuelled by inadequate updates and still being debated by non-duelers who have no idea what they are talking about
Bring back saloon dueling so we can camp the whiners
Bring back saloon dueling so we can camp the whiners
DeletedUser23737
Too true Derek.
DeletedUser36979
You missed the point, not I
So keeping dueling level low, attacking workers and questers, should be challenging? Sadly, Max, it seems you just confirmed what most people already know: Most duelers are afraid to duel duelers, and want to keep duel level low and keep attack the same easy non-duel specced targets and doesn't care about challenge, they care about easy wins.
For a better challenge, you need new targets; if you don't like skill-buyers, change to a non-skill buying server.
And how do you compare your wins against non-duel skilled workers?
You also failed to mention why duelers needs the ability to lower their level... I want that option too... earlier daily quest was easier
And I don't think that only duelers should have the easy options 
But honestly, just remove the dueling level completely, and have the "duel-to-lose"-whiners face the duelers.
DeletedUser23737
Anzian,
U still miss the point. I can't help u more than I have tried.
U still miss the point. I can't help u more than I have tried.
DeletedUser36979
No Max... what I miss is the reasoning behind the need to lower dueling level.
Until someone comes with a acceptable reason for it, I (and many others) just see the duelers as losers that want it easy. If that is the reason, then just say so, and we can get onward, and the losers can keep dueling.
Fact is that only a loser initiates a duel to lose, and calling them duelers just clouds the term, and dueler and loser becomes synonymous... is that really what the community wants?
Think how sports would be if half the players played to lose...
DeletedUser14006
What is acceptable to you (non dueler) is different from that of which is acceptable to Max (dueler), reasons for lowering duel level have been explained but you don't want to hear them.
Best agree to disagree if you are not willing to see things from an alternate perspective.
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