Here's an Idea: Stop changing the rules!!!

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Big John1970

I have no opinion either one way or the other regarding the arguments going on here, but I would like to see it calm down a little and see a little less arguing and a little more constructive replies.
This last week, The West seems to have degenerated into a childish spat of - A gets annoyed at something B said about them and takes it personally. A Posts that they are being picked on. Massive argument then rises about who started it. I'm seeing it in W1 and now I'm seeing it on the forum.
Please folks. let's be a little more mature here and try to keep this civilised and constructive.
(Now let's see how many red-rep's I get for saying that.)
 
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futurama1001

Well-Known Member
I'll try not to get involved here because the 0 mot argument has been well and truly exhausted in dozens of other threads over the years (do a search), but I'll just point out that the idea behind gradually raising the motivation cap is one that is intended to benefit duellers, not punish them. 0 mot duelling exists as a playstyle only because the exp system has historically made high exp duelling extremely inconvenient for anyone who didn't intentionally choose that route as a challenge. By capping duel levels at 450, it's impossible to run out of targets and that problem has been removed, hence eliminating the need to keep your motivation low.

Unfortunately, the majority of 0 mots showed their true reasons for playing that way by choosing to continue putting the effort into lowering their motivation even when they were no longer at risk of losing their oh-so-valuable targets. The fact is that you no longer have any reason to keep your motivation low unless you're aiming to remain in range of a bunch of non-duellers who can't defend themselves. I don't know how many times this has to be pointed out before it sinks in.

Anyway, this update is the most positive change to duelling since the formula was broken in 2011 in that said formula has finally been changed. Any dueller has to be able to see that.
 

Jebedobidiah Johnstonson

So I want to address this "dueling as INNO intended" argument against low xp dueling.

Let the Players decide how to play the game.
The Developers job is to create the structure of the game, and you devs have done a fabulous job of doing that over the years.

But don't tell the players how to play the game. Let us figure out how we want to play.

Low xp dueling has been a very important part of The West since it's inception. Players figured out very early that dueling for xp was lame.

The best duelers I have known in the 5 years I have been playing were All low xp duelers.
Let me name just a few, Blackmax, YosammitySam, Bugz...
2 of those 3 have quit the game after the 3mot update. And Blackmax recently went on an extended vacation...we'll see if he continues to play after this new 'update'.

Some of the best aspects of any game were NEVER INTENDED by game developers.
Let me give one example: Minecraft Creepers were created by a bug in the code, they were never 'intended' to be in the game. But Creepers have become synonymous with Minecraft. They sell Creeper hats, creeper costumes, bedsheets...etc...endless resource of money for Mojang and now Microsoft.
And before anyone rips me for mentioning Minecraft here, it is one of the most popular games ever and netted the creator 3.5 billion dollars when they sold it. Imagine how much money Minecraft would have lost if they would have just eliminated creepers because they were never 'intended' to be part of the game.
And the same thing is happening here.
Low xp duelers are a valuable part of The West. Maybe most non-duelers hate low xp duelers...but low xp duelers WERE am integral part of The west community.
With this new update, that is going away.
People that are not low xp duelers will never understand the appeal of it. It is the only way I will play this game, and I am not the only one. Without low xp dueling many players simply gave up on the west.

By eliminating low xp dueling from this game, other players may think they are winning...but in the end The West community suffers as this type of player simply quits playing.

I passionately care about The West and what is happening to it. I hope everyone that has viewed this forum thread realizes that. I want was is best for the game.
And I firmly believe driving more duelers away from the game is not what is best for The West.

REFORM FORT FIGHTING if you want to bring The West back to its former glory and leave dueling alone.

As a dueler I can tell you that having a 450 duel lvl and dueling the same 10 players everyday has absolutely no appeal to me. Boring.

If anyone that is not a dueler still believes that is incorrect, I can say, you do not know, you do not duel everyday. I do. I am telling you as a dueler that would not be fun.

I realize none of what I say is going to matter...I have yet to see an 'update' go to beta that was not implemented in the other servers..but I admit i have not been around for every update. But I still hope this latest 'update' does not make it to the regular servers.

But I will still continue to voice my opinion because I believe in giving everybody the chance to say what they believe.

With this "low xp was never intended" argument INNO is telling me how I should play the game. I have not told any Adventurer/builder/Fort Fighter how they should be playing the game. Why are all of these other players and INNO developers telling me how to play the game?

Again: LET THE PLAYERS DECIDE HOW TO PLAY THE GAME!

PS: Sorry if I rambled here...the libations influenced my typing tonight.

For Players: Good day to all of you players out there, I love all of you because you make the game I love possible. Without all of you I would have nothing to login to.

For Devs: Find the real problem with this game we love! I have given you my opinion, FIX FORT FIGHTING and you fix The West!
 

foscock

The West Team
GM Master
If you saw this:
Player X Stats
Jobs: 60k+
Duels: 2900+
Quests: 600+
Prayer: 1000+
Fort Fights: 2

If I saw those stats I would think, huh...that player participates in every aspect of the game except Fort Fighting. I wonder why that is. That player must think Fort Fighting is really dull, or not user friendly, or he has some other issue with Fort Fighting that is not apparent in the numbers.
Jeb, I remember you. You were at a battle, sitting there with low hp and in dueling gear. I asked if anyone needed a rank at least 5 times, but you said nothing. The battle filled, you didn't get in. Then you jumped into chat and abused everyone for not letting you play, and threatened to duel all 42 of us.

I whispered you after the battle and explained how ranking worked, why gear and hp and being online mattered, and you said you'd try again. Then you turned up at the next battle, still in duel clothes, still low hp. But you asked for a rank and got one. Then by the time the battle started, you'd logged off. That must have been battle #1 for you, although I doubt you learned a great deal from it.

You call fort fighters elitist, but they are just players that have decided to concentrate on that aspect of the game. Do you really not understand that they may not have a lot of sympathy for a guy that spends his time dueling them, is abusive in fort chat, and most likely won't be following any orders?

Dull? Yeah, I suppose it would be being offline.

Not user-friendly? It isn't hard, click your toon and set the arrow.

From my experience and from some of your other comments, I'd say your biggest issue with fort fighting is more related to team play and the social aspects.
 

Kidd Kalypso

Well-Known Member
I hate to be the bad guy here.....this is not my forum.....but, as this is in ideas and brainfarts...and nothing is being put forth here....consider this thread closed.
 

Jebedobidiah Johnstonson

i have put forth Ideas on how to change FFing so that more players will play like me...
I dont have the time to wait 24hours to FF.
I wasn't online during the FF, yeah, because I have a family and a job and I can't say I will for sure be online 24 hours after a FF is initiated.

Again nobody has responded to my thoughts on how to Revamp FFing. Nobody.
Not one response.

and it is obvious you did not read my post earlier. yeah its long...but read it.

Here are my thoughts again on FFing. Reply to this PLEASE!


I am an active player that plays all aspects of the game...except FFing.
Why? Because the Fort Fighting on here is terrible.

Gotta wait 24 hours to fight? Can only FF if some town digs on a fort?
You have to get a 'rank' to fight in a fort Battle?
Forts are owned by Towns?

Fort Fighting is what is broken. Fix Fort fighting.

1) Run fort fighting more like adventures, you get 20 people on each side, start the battle in 15 mins. Then more can join if they want.

2) Change number 1 would eliminate the 'digging' on a fort.

3) eliminate ranking as a requirement to FF.
This is an elitist attitude and I have been denied a chance to Fort Fight by players who then laughed at me and told me to go duel.

4)Forts owned by towns? Why? Because of the building?
Maybe have forts owned by counties, and instead of losing the fort just have a Win/Loss record posted for the fort. Then each county will have a some incentive to keep their forts protected.

Just a couple of thoughts on how to REALLY fix the problem with FFing.
 
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Introvert Mj

i have put forth Ideas on how to change FFing so that more players will play like me...
I dont have the time to wait 24hours to FF.
I wasn't online during the FF, yeah, because I have a family and a job and I can't say I will for sure be online 24 hours after a FF is initiated.

Again nobody has responded to my thoughts on how to Revamp FFing. Nobody.
Not one response.
Nobody has responded because you're talking like an immature kid. You need to get the thought out of your head and understand that fort fights cant be revamped to suit your needs. Well, actually some have responded to your 'ideas' but you're too hateful right now to notice that.

You dont have time to wait 24 hours before a ff? Who told you wait? Duel, do jobs and do stuff in RL while its time. You cant be online during the ff? So what? you can ff offline too. And either way your world doesn't fill so that isnt an issue at all. Everyone has a family or job, not just you.

You probably never even really fought in a full fight, yet you claim you know so much about it to form your opinion as to how it sucks. You probably never took time to read the wiki section about it. Why there is a ranking system at all and why there is a 24 hour gap between fort fights. You disregard opinions of everyone in this thread who are much more experienced than you at fort fights and have been in more than 500 fights. You see it from the perspective of your world only, which is the main problem here. Also, your attitude doesn't help in the slightest.

Let me tell you, your world lacks organisation among alliances. There is no cohesion, no planning. So, why dont you, instead of complaining about the fights, just take your time and do a few fights quietly, learn about the various mechanics of a very complicated aspect of the game which you seem to know so much about by just being in 2 fights in your life and then figure out whats really wrong? Why dont you spend some time organising the various broken alliances in that world, get them together and form a cohesive structure? You'll find the numbers increasing. Actually there's a lot of people that are ready to fight in your world, but they just dont because it has no structure or planning. Try thinking things in that perpective before you go rambling about ff's in general.

Your 'ideas' are what is broken. You wouldnt have suggested them in the first place if you actually knew how ff's work. There's too many reasons to list why each of them won't work.
 

DanteNightroad

Well-Known Member
Here are my thoughts again on FFing. Reply to this PLEASE!


I am an active player that plays all aspects of the game...except FFing.
Why? Because the Fort Fighting on here is terrible.

Gotta wait 24 hours to fight? Can only FF if some town digs on a fort?
You have to get a 'rank' to fight in a fort Battle?
Forts are owned by Towns?

Fort Fighting is what is broken. Fix Fort fighting.

1) Run fort fighting more like adventures, you get 20 people on each side, start the battle in 15 mins. Then more can join if they want.

2) Change number 1 would eliminate the 'digging' on a fort.

3) eliminate ranking as a requirement to FF.
This is an elitist attitude and I have been denied a chance to Fort Fight by players who then laughed at me and told me to go duel.

4)Forts owned by towns? Why? Because of the building?
Maybe have forts owned by counties, and instead of losing the fort just have a Win/Loss record posted for the fort. Then each county will have a some incentive to keep their forts protected.

Just a couple of thoughts on how to REALLY fix the problem with FFing.
1 but we already have adventures? more can join, whats stopping people from looking weak and then bringing in the big guns?
3.so what would decide who moves first or who gets priority on a spot? when there are not enough people to fill a fort people get in even without rank. its a big team effort that takes a lot of time and money to set up so I don't see why people should be denied a choice. whats next, everyone joins alliance by default and can never be kicked or better yet they join more than 1 alliance? I mean why limit yourself on markets and forums.
4. what are you trying to say? towns own forts so people who are not part of those towns/alliance can't sleep in them and a county can have more than 2 alliances + big interdependent towns so how would you pick who gets to use the fort? would you want your enemy sleeping in your fort and poping out to duel you? I also don't see point of forts that only have a win loss record. there is 1 such fort in the middle of the map, feel free to try it out. if you want fights with no results then just run maneuvers
 

futurama1001

Well-Known Member
Like Kidd said, this is not an idea. I'll give the thread a chance in the saloon, but try and keep it civil and productive or it'll be closed very shortly.
 

Anny Hudson

Well-Known Member
I wonder why it hasn't been closed yet. It's nothing but a whine thread, with no real points being discussed really. 0 Productivity. And what's with the double, triple and quadruple posts anyway? Geez.

Anyways..

Let the Players decide how to play the game.
The Developers job is to create the structure of the game.
The new structure of the game is duel motivation cannot go below 10%.

Low xp dueling has been a very important part of The West since it's inception. Players figured out very early that dueling for xp was lame.
Why? Why exactly?

The best duelers I have known in the 5 years I have been playing were All low xp duelers.
Let me name just a few, Blackmax, YosammitySam, Bugz...
2 of those 3 have quit the game after the 3mot update. And Blackmax recently went on an extended vacation...we'll see if he continues to play after this new 'update'.
Dude, again you're thinking El Dorado is the only world in the game. Your world is dead, and that's the prime reason why your buddy Black Max is in vacation mode mode there. And for your information, Black Max isn't a low xp dueler in Dakota.

http://prntscr.com/81xd32 (You can see he's 2nd ranked in the duel rankings with over 360k duel exp) & http://prntscr.com/81xdo3 (Just to show he is not in Vacation Mode there)

....Minecraft...MineCraft....Minecraft..
Mine Craft is completely different than The West, they are two different games altogether. Comparing with what happened there and what happened here is pointless.

REFORM FORT FIGHTING if you want to bring The West back to its former glory and leave dueling alone.
Your means to reform fort-fighting in this thread was utter ridiculous and people have replied to that. Don't think I need to say more.

As a dueler I can tell you that having a 450 duel lvl and dueling the same 10 players everyday has absolutely no appeal to me. Boring.
Why do you keep saying the same thing? Do you even realize that while you say "all the duelers will be affected", you're not the only one? There are several other duelers who will affected by this update too. Their duel levels will increase at the same rate. You will never run out of targets that way, and you'll have a variety of duelers to face.
 
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RickTractorBolturd

Well-Known Member
not really much to say here, think it has all been covered, not only in this thread but many many others. Certainly, this is my favorite forum topic/post in a long time and i love the irony. Someone defending a play style of zero mot and now using a bible to reduce their level, complaining about not enough targets, but odds are was also in favor of the Job KO being removed. Singular perspective must be bliss, but this is a game that more than just zero mots play, so changes happen all the time. Personally, the fact that they are releasing another change so soon from the last in regards to duel, shows they are trying. I would be happy with that as a dueler
 

Gandalf Greyhame

Well-Known Member
What's the point of honor values? They don't seem to explicitly affect anything, as far as I can tell.
I'm not a fan of players disappearing from the duel menu after a week- on small worlds, that literally means many duelers will have 15 targets on the whole map unless they're willing to micromanage their character 24/7. Definitely not a positive change.
The formula changes are a huge positive. It's about time something other than a resistance arms race or pure aim/dodge was a viable build.
 

mrtelcom

What's the point of honor values? They don't seem to explicitly affect anything, as far as I can tell.
I'm not a fan of players disappearing from the duel menu after a week- on small worlds, that literally means many duelers will have 15 targets on the whole map unless they're willing to micromanage their character 24/7. Definitely not a positive change.
The formula changes are a huge positive. It's about time something other than a resistance arms race or pure aim/dodge was a viable build.
15? That would be nice, I have not seen more than 9 yet on Beta.
 

Mustang Kate

Well-Known Member
It's your attitude in your convo that is not sitting well with people reading your posts, Jebedobidiah, you are combative with your comments.
 

RickTractorBolturd

Well-Known Member
the post says:
"Players who have not initiated a duel in the past seven days will be hidden from the duelling menu.

  • Non-duellers will be hidden as if they were under duel protection, sleeping or inactive. They may still be challenged as normal from player profiles, town saloons, map locations and the sheriff building."​
To me, this might result in MORE targets to duel, even if you have to hunt for them, not less. The players who MIGHT eventually be removed from the duel list are the same ones who duel once every 3 days for a KO now, meaning you are not seeing them on the list anyway. Maybe this will keep them duelable, making for more overall targets. It might also bring some townless back to a town, so at least wait and see how it is first. Plus, no one is stopping duel towns from compiling lists of targets in their forums of nonlisted players who can be dueled. Odds are you know them well, especially zero mots duelers.
 

Micky12

Well-Known Member
The west is constantly evolving so getting used to new updates is simply part of the challenge to every player. Duel mot 10%.. that's fine, it does favor duelers and players will be getting into your range as you level up. Town rankings is fine. About Honorable duels, how are we meant to know if a duel is honorable or not? Skill-buyers and people with fully upgraded cullens, doolins will get heavily penalized for this since they would have more skills on average than someone who hasn't upgraded much of their dueling set.

The hiding in the duel screen penalizes duelers again since they need to search every single saloon/ sheriff and find their players. Fort fighters should search each fort to find the initiated battle and adventurers need to scroll entire counties to find their job since that's basically what duelers have to do.
 

Anzian

Well-Known Member
...
The hiding in the duel screen penalizes duelers again since they need to search every single saloon/ sheriff and find their players. Fort fighters should search each fort to find the initiated battle and adventurers need to scroll entire counties to find their job since that's basically what duelers have to do.
Or you could just duel those on the duel screen... but maybe those are too hard for you? Or too dangerous, because they actually duel. Again, it seems that duellers just want the easy targets... :hmf:
 

Gandalf Greyhame

Well-Known Member
Or you could just duel those on the duel screen... but maybe those are too hard for you? Or too dangerous, because they actually duel. Again, it seems that duellers just want the easy targets... :hmf:
It's more a matter of actually wanting some targets at all. There are a lot of players who only have a dozen players in their range that actually duel.
 

Anzian

Well-Known Member
It's more a matter of actually wanting some targets at all. There are a lot of players who only have a dozen players in their range that actually duel.
The solution to that would be more player in total.
The bullies themselves are a part of the reason for the problem, since those that don't duel, find ways to avoid it. Like going townless, or quitting the game.
And if duelers want more targets.... level up to duel-level 450, and duel each other... Innogames even helps you with that by securing that you always get at least 10% experience for a duel :blink: I would like that for my jobs :D
 
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