Duelling Formula Feedback Thread

-Neo-

Banned
dueling now comes down to two things.

1. Dueler versus non dueler...dueler wins.

2. Dueler versus dueler...flip a coin..depends on settings..build essentially the same for both.

why bother..not much of a challenge anymore.
*pulls whats left of my hair out, mumbling "is that not what ive been saying since the start?"*
 

Eli Makepeace

If Inno seriously want worthwhile feedback on the duelling formula they should tell us what it is. It's only a few variables with presumably a few simple operators, such as 'plus' and 'times' and I could probably tell you within a couple of hours whether it was balanced, fair or subject to exploitation. Otherwise, forget end-user input; anecdotes are not data and to get enough data-points to reliably reverse-engineer the formula would be a massive waste of anyone's time. How they could ever have come up with a formula in the first place that was not robust enough to survive gameplay staggers me.
Very simply, duel builds tend to invest APs in either Strength or Dexterity depending on whether the user takes the melee or ranged route. Although Health is not a part of the duel formula it affects duelling because running out of it is a slam-dunk for the opposition. For this (and other reasons) many duellers came to prefer melee over ranged and for some reason Inno felt this was a bad thing and decided to handicap Strength in favour of Dexterity by reducing the value of Toughness and increasing that of Aim. Never mind that the builds would have come into balance anyway through classical game theory.
Thus, a lot of players' hard work was just thrown away as their APs and gear were effectively nerfed. Never mind, folks - at least you got your SPs back.

As you have probably guessed, I am not impressed. Instead of using craft items or new gear to 'correct' any 'imbalances' they decided to fiddle with the duel formula. They never told us what it was before or what it is now, and now they ask us for our opinion of the change! Well, my opinion is that they should have thought about it properly in the first place and got it right from the get-go.

[For brevity and to keep on-topic, no consideration is given to stance, duel frequency, strategies, bounties, character class etc. etc. as these are nothing to do with the duel formula]
 

Judge R Bean

It has always been easy to KO resistance duelers.The problem is that if you skill yourself as resistance killer, then you will suck vs most of the power duelers.But since 3/5 of all the duelers were resistance, it was worth it to skill yourself as resistance killer.

The best option in my opininon was, to skill yourself between resistance killer and power dueler, especially when the buffs came out.
When was it easy to KO resist? easy to beat yes, easy to KO no way.
 

-Neo-

Banned
eli, i totally agree, just one thing i have been trying to point out as well:
i dont agree with this:
Very simply, duel builds tend to invest APs in either Strength or Dexterity depending on whether the user takes the melee or ranged route.
thats a preconceived idea held by many on this game.
for some reason people thought there were only 2 builds before the update.
yet there were more
I for instance have always been charisma.75-90% APs there.
up until the update this build was probably the most flexible, being able to swap gear and see a total change in the build itself, being able to adapt to opponents.
however this build before the update was taken down easily by dedicated resist and shoot.

now, with aim and dodge being so important, not only have they taken away the strength build, but also the charisma build.
now there is only 1 build left: dext ranged.
shame
:(
goodbye the west! hello simcity!
 

DraGonFlyBG

Well-Known Member
When was it easy to KO resist? easy to beat yes, easy to KO no way.
Until the buntline was the best ranged weapon, yeah it was really hard to KO resistance player, but since the golden weapons were added into the game, it became pretty easy to KO resistance dueler.
 

Eli Makepeace

eli, i totally agree, just one thing i have been trying to point out as well:
i dont agree with this: "Very simply, duel builds tend to......."
By which I meant to convey not that it was simple, but that I was simplifying (for reasons of brevity) and that it was a tendency - a common trend - rather than a universal rule. Hope that clarifies.:blink:
 

Judge R Bean

Until the buntline was the best ranged weapon, yeah it was really hard to KO resistance player, but since the golden weapons were added into the game, it became pretty easy to KO resistance dueler.
Really????? I've never known it to be easy even with golden, certainly not against players who are LVL95 plus. My resists (before update) used to get KO'd about once every three months, and that was only when I got 4/5 players ganging up. Wish I'd have seen this magical build!
 

Buffalofred

i'll prefix this post by saying in this matter neo & djorsk & victors take on the update should almost be taken as gospel (and no im not in thier fanclub or whatever ,*insert they live in mum's basement clique' blah blah here *)

i think eli (with neo's amendment on a.p build choices) pretty summed it up perfectly with nothing much else to add

however ,with any change,i think its more important to look at why, i think to say inno just nerfed resist because too many complained it was overpowered? (said with respect), im sorry but if you were'nt aware of how to take out a resist before the update ,then maybe you should'nt be contributing to this thread

i think the more important thing to look at is how will inno profit from this ,i suspect (and have for a long time) with the introduction of crafting (and we already see this ,duelers asking for wieght stones etc , forties for bayonets and questies looking for gents dinners and the like ) inno are looking to develop a ingame culture of buffs then perhaps bring in thier own crafted products for nuggets ,which is sound business ,its a double dip on nuggeters ,thinking that melee etc with use the buff's or introduce the balance with nugget crafted products? (long bow to draw? , we'll see)

but i think just swinging dueling only to one build (for the record ,always my fav) takes far too much from the game,to me,its always been an appeal,guessing gear changes ,and the many variants of a build your thinking who your cueing has,but with this change ,you'll know what they have ,pretty much almost exactly ,and thats just trading punches ,there's no stratagy

(n.b i know i cant spell, and no im not some arrogant "i know it all blah blah " comic book store guy,it's a feedback thread and thats mine)
 
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-Neo-

Banned





before it took 4 to 5 duels to ko a resist, now it takes 4 to 5 duels to ko a ranged 25 levels lower!
LOL
*wonders what it would be like if the guy was same level as myself*
 

DraGonFlyBG

Well-Known Member
Really????? I've never known it to be easy even with golden, certainly not against players who are LVL95 plus. My resists (before update) used to get KO'd about once every three months, and that was only when I got 4/5 players ganging up. Wish I'd have seen this magical build!
Its not magical and it was easy, and ofc it is much more easy if the resist player is lower level.
Just most of the mad shooters have had their shooting not to duel, they have been using it for jobs.That is the reason why the resistance were hard to be KO-ed, cause only a few of the mad vigor and the mad shooters, were actually duelers.
And btw, to KO good power dueler is as hard as it is to KO good resistance dueler, especially if the power dueler is melee.
 

Hellstromm

This is stupid. People continue to ignore the main imbalances posed by Strength builds as opposed to Dex builds prior to this update:

1. significantly more hps
2. significantly better at fort wars because of more hps
3. rarely passed out in a duel
4. pretty tough to beat, particularly if lots of points are put into aim/resist.
5. three duel skills and two fort skills applied through strength.
6. able to duel and duel and duel without worrying about running out of hps (perfect for 0% mot duelers).
7. you can even be a worker and benefit from all of the above.

In the Dex build, only aim and shooting apply to duels and only aim applies to forts.

Aim, Dodge & HPs are the only skills that cannot be used for jobs, and thus they should have the greatest impact on all things "other than" jobs, which they now do.

As it is, shooting hasn't been made more effective than vigor. Aim & dodge have been made more effective. The arguments posed here are flawed on that analysis alone.

Listen to your own arguments guys, it's like you're writing this stuff but not even paying attention to your own arguments to realize the the disconnect. Either that or your invested in your arguments that you're unwilling to see the bigger picture.

Point being, as Diggo said earlier, you can no longer have your cake and eat it too. The melee build is no longer the catch-all build.
 
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dgorsk

Well-Known Member
1. hp dosent win you duels, unless the shooter is a noob.
2. forts affect dueling how???
3. its called team work, you should look into it.
4. tough to beat?? stick to your forts.
5. again forts have nothing to do with dueling.
6. with dodge builds you can duel and duel cause you never get hit
7. you can be any class and be a amazing dueler

OH and to refute the rest of your points, WHO THE FRICK CARES ABOUT FORTS!!! THIS IS A DUELING THREAD!
 

Hellstromm

wow, total disconnect.

To answer your inane question Neo, characters who focus on aim, dodge and/or hps will be less able to complete jobs and quests. As some rather potent special items/weapons are only obtainable from completing quests, or by purchasing said items in the market from someone who completed the quests and has no use for such items (becoming a rarity), focusing on such skills will deny you some equipment that could increase your duel wins.

To respond to dgorsk's inane post, DON'T IGNORE THE WHOLE PICTURE JUST BECAUSE IT'S INCONVENIENT TO YOUR MYOPIC (narrow/distorted) LINE OF REASONING.
 
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-Neo-

Banned
wow, total disconnect.

To answer your inane question Neo, characters who focus on aim, dodge and/or hps will be less able to complete jobs and quests. As some rather potent special items/weapons are only obtainable from completing quests, or by purchasing said items in the market from someone who completed the quests and has no use for such items (becoming a rarity), focusing on such skills will deny you some equipment that could increase your duel wins.

To respond to dgorsk's inane post, DON'T IGNORE THE WHOLE PICTURE JUST BECAUSE IT'S INCONVENIENT TO YOUR MYOPIC (narrow/distorted) LINE OF REASONING.
you cannot see the contradiction in what you say?
no one has ever mentioned shooting being any more powerful than vigor...
to reiterate, what we are saying is that the dexterity shoot build is now the only build viable.
every build had their p and t's there was no advantage, maybe only very slight towards strength resist build.
now it has all been thrown out of the window, might as well het rid of melee.

and then you conclude by saying its better to get rid of a huge variety in game play for the sake of a build that is slightly overpowered yet can be chosen and enjoyed by anyone?

lets get rid of skills all together!

:hmf:
 
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Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
And you're wrong.
And you are in denial. Your previous points are answered by dgorsk

Every day goes past I am getting ever moreproof there isnt another build to combat or stand upto the dex dodge aim build as both an attacking and a defensive build. It is superior to all others.

And even though half my toons are that already I am getting to absolutely hate it.

Forts be damned, im sick of every duelling thread getting hijacked by other elements of the game. Some of us ( yes i know its ubelievable ) play this game mostly for the duelling. Shame on inno for taking the backbone of the game and reducing it to what its fast becoming.

One thing you might be able to do is put out this rubbish propaganda, you wont find many top class duellers falling for it.
 

Hellstromm

Right, we wouldn't want to clutter up this thread with common sense now would we?

Victor, you and I know what was posed in the Original Post, and we both know the bulk of your, Neo's, and dgork's discussions here are not accommodating, nor addressing, the requests posed by the CM, so your call of, "why do you have to muddy up our whining with discussions of game balance?!?"

Duh, because that's what this is all about, not your perceived notion that dueling is now singular and linear in scope, which btw it isn't, but all my Inno meta info can't be shared (already asked, sorry), so you're stuck with speculations or actually making comparative tests (like I did) and putting it in a spreadsheet for accurate comparisons. Maybe you'll see a "pattern," and then maybe you could come back to this thread and share your results.
 
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Victor Kruger

Well-Known Member
Right, we wouldn't want to clutter up this thread with common sense now would we?

Victor, you and I know what was posed in the Original Post, and we both know the bulk of your, Neo's, and dgork's discussions here are not accommodating, nor addressing, the requests posed by the CM, so your call of, "why do you have to muddy up our whining with discussions of game balance?!?"

Duh, because that's what this is all about, not your perceived notion that dueling is now singular and linear in scope, which btw it isn't, but all my Inno meta info can't be shared (already asked, sorry), so you're stuck with speculations or actually making comparative tests (like I did) and putting it in a spreadsheet for accurate comparisons. Maybe you'll see a "pattern," and then maybe you could come back to this thread and share your results.
Meh as usual your not listening, I never once said it was singular for the regular average dueller. I stated quite simply there is one simple superior build only now... you want to win the majority of your duels you go aim, dodge... you want to win nearly all your duels vs everything else but the same build you go shoot aim dodge. No mystery no dex dodge aim killer build to combat it ... nothing... yknow id love there to be but there isnt.

Your tests as youve said yourself are NPC based, they mean nothing as they arnt how people build in the first place anyway ... no person ive ever seen has 570 vigor or 480 toughness with 3 aim ... total waste of energy and inconclusive as they only account for random generated NPC NOT real people skilled toons... totally different I assure you.

Ill give you a taste of things to come about the real world lvl 100 + dueling when you are all a similar build. below are 1 week of dueling

No hit
Total health points
- 190 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel gains 496 experience points. natzgr did not carry any cash

Total health points
- 392 HP
Total health points
- 328 HP
Judge R Bean wins the duel, gains 378 experience points and steals $285 from Victor Kruger.

No hit
Total health points
- 271 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel and gains 622 experience points. Judge R Bean did not carry any cash

No hit
Total health points
- 750 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel and gains 622 experience points. Judge R Bean

Total health points
- 79 HP
Total health points
- 203 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel and gains 615 experience points. natzgr did not carry any cash

Total health points
- 71 HP
No hit
natzgr wins the duel and gains 354 experience points. Victor Kruger did not carry any cash

No hit
Total health points
- 391 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel, gains 631 experience points and steals $17 from Judge R Bean.

Total health points
- 118 HP
No hit
natzgr wins the duel, gains 361 experience points and steals $9 from Victor Kruger.

Total health points
- 108 HP
Total health points
- 267 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel, gains 603 experience points and steals $3 from natzgr.

Total health points
- 193 HP
Total health points
- 193 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel and gains 654 experience points. natzgr did not carry any cash

Total health points
- 352 HP
Total health points
- 212 HP
KIFT wins the duel and gains 643 experience points. Victor Kruger did not carry any cash

Total health points
- 76 HP
Total health points
- 253 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel, gains 616 experience points and steals $81 from natzgr.

No hit
No hit
natzgr wins the duel, gains 332 experience points and steals $183 from Victor Kruger.

Total health points
- 58 HP
No hit
natzgr wins the duel, gains 313 experience points and steals $102 from Victor Kruger.

Total health points
- 34 HP
No hit
natzgr wins the duel, gains 292 experience points and steals $68 from Victor Kruger.

Total health points
- 181 HP
Total health points
- 497 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel and gains 238 experience points. Swiss did not carry any cash

No hit
Total health points
- 592 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel and gains 605 experience points. Judge R Bean did not carry any cash

otal health points
- 112 HP
Total health points
- 221 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel and gains 594 experience points. Judge R Bean

Total health points
- 98 HP
No hit
natzgr wins the duel, gains 374 experience points and steals $16 from Victor Kruger.

No hit
Total health points
- 373 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel and gains 597 experience points. Judge R Bean did not carry any cash

Total health points
- 478 HP
Total health points
- 346 HP
Bill Hastings wins the duel, gains 479 experience points and steals $10 from Victor Kruger.

Total health points
- 39 HP
No hit
natzgr wins the duel, gains 328 experience points and steals $4 from Victor Kruger.

Total health points
- 68 HP
Total health points
- 234 HP
Victor Kruger wins the duel and gains 667 experience points. natzgr did not carry any cash

And thats not with shooters all are melee sitting there on the same spot with the same style builds slapping away at each other over a few days, most of us are lvl 120... ITS MIND NUMBING, i dont even care anymore about anything but tweak the stance maybe from time to time or just leave it alone ... its random anyway with everyone having so much dodge and aim ...

There is no Good dueling in that lot of reports only good guessing and good random luck by the server on your dodge or aim value. Thats it, no mystery no better kit, no better build, no strategy, pathetic

Theres a pattern there alright and its this, Dodge and aim are random value skills when it comes down to it we all know that, over a certain amount it just becomes random luck dueling.

We may as well be sitting there with pillows, you think thats active player winning or nugget enticing for inno ?

Look at it another way, Forts became IMO ruined by a simple dominating factor HP, that is what is going to and already happening to dueling. Hate its that way but it is.

Im not saying everyone will change to this build as theres other factors in this game like forts & questing etc but I am saying 90% of people who play for the dueling will be forced to even if they dont like it if they wish to duel and not get pawned.

So you have the best duellers all running around testing their luck vs each other ?? maybe the sleepy set can give you a serious luck advantage :rolleyes:

Why cant you just go hmmmmmm yknow maybe we should take this a bit more seriously due to the fact that a lot of prolific duelers are saying & finding the same thing instead of just dismissing us as rambling fools. Why is it in the players that always float to the top in dueling can see it yet most of the rest cannot ?

Currently Talking and comparing with DraGonfly re this uber build on dex and hes trying the only thing I havnt as yet ... Insane 350 + app + very high 200 + dodge vs the dex build... results ? 1 win out of 6 duels ... the win was in attack and all other duels failed....

I'll continue posting findings if you like with all my dex shooters on all worlds ..... I have 0 app 0 tactics and cream the pants off of everyone but another mirror image build 90% of the time with 10% being bad guessing on stance and probably low random value given to my dodge .. so what, ill hit them again and the next time i cream them no worries.

I couldnt give a crap about how the average dueling players are finding it. I do give a crap that the one thing left in the game I still enjoyed has been ruined and thats the competitiveness between the top duelers, in a way its brought us all closer together, we chat more but theres no admiration as to someone's build being better or whos the better dueler now, we all know its just about luck.

I accept btw i am talking about high level dueling only as thats what i am testing.

Heres something else that Inno have not considered... No dueler will ever need to use nuggets no soldier bonus needs to be activated no class has a better chance dueling ... its all the same, well done inno all classes can duel with the same abilty.... DEX Dodge Aim NO PREMIUM required ever again if all you wish to enjoy are duels.

Thanks Inno you just gave us all a free game for ever more, no need to spend a dime ever again. Noobs just killed the golden goose for soldiers having to use prem ( i have for the past 2 years ) becuase its too good a bonus to ignore. I will now, stuff forts its only for the dueling i used nuggets for in the first place anyway.

Let me know if you wish me to furnish you or the Inno team with my dex dodge shooter results form other worlds i think i got about 100 pages worth already. ;)
 

Judge R Bean

Its not magical and it was easy, and ofc it is much more easy if the resist player is lower level.
Just most of the mad shooters have had their shooting not to duel, they have been using it for jobs.That is the reason why the resistance were hard to be KO-ed, cause only a few of the mad vigor and the mad shooters, were actually duelers.
And btw, to KO good power dueler is as hard as it is to KO good resistance dueler, especially if the power dueler is melee.
Well of course it would be easier if they were lower level!
I stand by my statement that it has NEVER been easy to KO resists, especially higher levelers.