DeletedUser9470
A true 0% cares more about winning than numbers. numbers count, but winning counts more.
Winning isn't necessarily being the better dueller.
Don't knock 0%!
h34r:
Duelling Formula Feedback Thread
- Thread starter Diggo11
- Start date
A true 0% cares more about winning than numbers. numbers count, but winning counts more.
Winning isn't necessarily being the better dueller.
Don't knock 0%!
h34r:DeletedUser
I guess now it is, "go Aim/Dodge build and get over it!"
DeletedUser16008
Yadda Yadda Yadda what a real constructive piece of advise.
Its like giving people one or two high cash jobs with it only accessible on swimming... all very well but extremely boring after a week....
Think about it, aim & dodge help for nothing else in the game whatsoever, the best and only effective build is now aim,dodge based. In one update its managed to condemn all melee to a pile of average duellers and all other builds to second rate... basically if you want to do any decent jobs your going to be a pretty average dueller...
Now for me i dont care about jobs or quests but i do know a lot of others love to do everything AND still duel and enjoy that most, now they have a choice duel well & be rubbish at most else or the other way around.
More like the game has become a one trick pony ... in other words players that like to duel will more likely eventually get bored and leave rather than get over it.
DeletedUser
Yadda Yadda Yadda what a real constructive piece of advise.
Was it a piece of constructive advice coming from a resistance dueler to make an anti-resistance dueler build?
Exactly. They are also 2 of the three skills that people can't see how people are ranked. They are the most important skills for dueling and if you want to be a great dueler, you'll sacrifice other aspects of the game to excel in your chosen profession.
Makes complete sense to me.
This build has enforced specialization...and I think it's a good thing. What I think is boring is the build that allows you to do everything at once...
DeletedUser16008
Depends if you like the idea of everyone riding the same one trick pony i guess. Personally having every good dueller reduced to heads or tails duelling for me could not be more pointless.
mmm not entirely true. Tactics and Appearance WERE and still according to their role should be very useful in a duel, in fact they are now redundant. Also when one of these super skills is on the blue colour tree it makes it unbalanced towards favouring shooters even more so.
Heck its not even worth having melee in the game really if your going to just say shooters should always be better because its the west. Having melee even in the game then makes no sense.
If the game had been all about aim and dodge and guess the place to aim/dodge then I for one would have given up years ago. Its hugely random now and there is little need to bother about changing kit for def or attack ..all strategy, tweaking skills to combat that pesky player that owned you last week etc are virtually pointless, with a bit of luck the next time you duel youll guess correct and beat that guys ass like you owned him, until the next time when the die roll goes against you. All very stimulating ... not
When all is said and done thats exactly what ive always done anyway so nothing new for me. For normal everyday players that like a duel id say its become a whole lot less diverse and interesting. This build has reduced options and forced specialization whilst saying to players fine you want to duel well, then forgo everything else, no jobs no cash no quests... meanwhile those of other persuasions carry on as normal yup thats going to keep duelling players interested useless 0 motivation then you could argue its made those pesky bullies even more favored.
Personally I think its just one more scam to make players nugget to change skills over and over again except this time if you get it wrong with aim and dodge you wont have the luxury of at least the compensation of doing certain jobs, youll just be rubbish at everything, as you point out both skills are hidden so most will have no idea what it will take to be competitive on say dodge 200... 250.. 350.. 400 ?. Whatever, its no skin off my nose, games run its course and in decline without a doubt so when all is said and done I shouldn't care less. I happen to care simply because its a bad update, restrictive in play and has managed to ruin plenty of other builds in one foul swoop. Also the compensation only addressed the SP whilst leaving all those not on Dex a huge bill so everyone BUT the full time duellers unless already a shooter dex build benefited.
Not many others seem to bother with pointing out what a load of rubbish the answer to balancing duelling has been and why, possibly because they don't like to get attacked on the forums... me ? I don't give a stuff.
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DeletedUser16008
Yeesh Adelei,
Here on one page i see 3 duelers not including me probably between them they duel more than most full towns combined.I expect there will be plenty that see no difference, the ones that know how to really duel know the truth of it and after a number of weeks accept its a now a one trick pony rather than ask for proof when it keeps on being thrown in here from those that have a clue try taking them seriously.
Its obvious you don't understand advanced dueling or what overpowered or restricting build options mean.
Resist builds were always a piece of cake to beat. All builds had the same option that only certain others could challenge and defeat them.
That was part of the appeal & you filled your town with a number of different builds to be effective. Now a lot of normal players using all other average builds spent a lot of time moaning and whining when really its because they either.
A Don't understand about dueling but think they do
B Arn't prepared to waste the skills on it yet expect to be competitive
C Are total noobs yet expect everything to be handed on a plate to them including dueling ability.
Saying all that all it needed was tactics bonus removed and resist slightly lowered to balance it up ....
Honestly I don't care if you believe me or not I have tried to provide the feedback as have others ....and if we posted duels as proof people would only say you dont know the build of the other etc blah blah blah... whatever proof submitted would be refuted.
So believe it of dont, build how you want and be happy dueling has become so pathetic and random based on two skills ... happy joyful days ahead.
I'd rather duel dgorsk Neo or Judge or other duelers who know their trade anyway but the new system reduces all of us to a flip of the coin or who invests more points on the two main skills..... and that my friend imo is a dead end game.
Here on one page i see 3 duelers not including me probably between them they duel more than most full towns combined.I expect there will be plenty that see no difference, the ones that know how to really duel know the truth of it and after a number of weeks accept its a now a one trick pony rather than ask for proof when it keeps on being thrown in here from those that have a clue try taking them seriously.
Its obvious you don't understand advanced dueling or what overpowered or restricting build options mean.
Resist builds were always a piece of cake to beat. All builds had the same option that only certain others could challenge and defeat them.
That was part of the appeal & you filled your town with a number of different builds to be effective. Now a lot of normal players using all other average builds spent a lot of time moaning and whining when really its because they either.
A Don't understand about dueling but think they do
B Arn't prepared to waste the skills on it yet expect to be competitive
C Are total noobs yet expect everything to be handed on a plate to them including dueling ability.
Saying all that all it needed was tactics bonus removed and resist slightly lowered to balance it up ....
Honestly I don't care if you believe me or not I have tried to provide the feedback as have others ....and if we posted duels as proof people would only say you dont know the build of the other etc blah blah blah... whatever proof submitted would be refuted.
So believe it of dont, build how you want and be happy dueling has become so pathetic and random based on two skills ... happy joyful days ahead.
I'd rather duel dgorsk Neo or Judge or other duelers who know their trade anyway but the new system reduces all of us to a flip of the coin or who invests more points on the two main skills..... and that my friend imo is a dead end game.
DeletedUser14793
After reading alot of these posts, im starting to think that Adelei Niska is playing a different game then we are. Lets see who do i trust, ppl ( including myself) that have done thousands upon thousands of duels?? Or someone that obviously has no understanding of the multitude of different builds there were before, which have now been reduce to basiclly 2 builds Melee or Ranged aim/Dodge.[URL="http://forum.the-west.net/member.php?u=11451"][/URL]
DeletedUser
This thread has diverged from dueling feedback (which is the purpose of this thread), to personal debates between players re: their ability to duel, and even personal insults at times. I will be going thru the thread shortly & deleting off topic posts, and cleaning it up. I ask that all posts in the future stay ON TOPIC. This thread is important for players to be able to give feedback, and i will not be closing it. However, anyone continuing to draw this thread off topic will be dealt with
DeletedUser13388
I am not agree, that there are only 2 builds now.
There are the same amount of builds as they were before.The only difference is, that the roles have changed.Weaker builds before the update now went stronger, when stronger builds before the update now are nerfed.Some builds are as powerfull as they were before.
Shooter on resistance(with mixed Dexterity and Mobility and s*itload of Toughness and Reflex) was the strongest build before in my opinion,yet it was boring..Now that build is in the past, but there is new power build that has showed up.
And as always, for every build, there is counter build.It depends vs what kind of players you are dueling mainly, then you are choosing that amount of skills which will bring you the highest % of wins.All you need is to adapt as fast as its possible.
There are the same amount of builds as they were before.The only difference is, that the roles have changed.Weaker builds before the update now went stronger, when stronger builds before the update now are nerfed.Some builds are as powerfull as they were before.
Shooter on resistance(with mixed Dexterity and Mobility and s*itload of Toughness and Reflex) was the strongest build before in my opinion,yet it was boring..Now that build is in the past, but there is new power build that has showed up.
And as always, for every build, there is counter build.It depends vs what kind of players you are dueling mainly, then you are choosing that amount of skills which will bring you the highest % of wins.All you need is to adapt as fast as its possible.
DeletedUser
Well said and I agree completely.
DeletedUser9470
ok, how do you beat a level 120 pure dexterity aim/ dodge shooter?
resist build?
appearance build?
DeletedUser16008
Gonna chip in here,
NPC as far as im concerned does absolutely nothing to help test duel builds I tried that when they first came out.... For one thing they are useless testing any defensive kind of set up plus as the boys just said they pose no challenge ... I dont look at anything on NPC apart from aim now and thats only after im above lvl 30 or so on the NPC... I click all day same as Neo and I find them of no use other than to keep motivation low or get a fast trip home.
For one thing those duel reports from JR 0 - 0 are similar to what ive been getting a fair amount of.... reason ? im dueling others with a similar build, I know because we talk and compare. BTW hells if you knew Judge youd know he only ever duels for XP and thats anyone in his range no exceptions including me even tho I may be 25 lvls above or so on some worlds & no 0 motivation with that so yea he'll lose a fair few yet those win figures are very impressive baring in mind his style of dueling and goal. And yes hes correct its BORING.
Anyway to recap heres my feedback.
Re NPC
They do not get better armed unless you are low lvl once high lvl they all have the same silly weapons, although ive never seen any with the golden colt or saber unless they are the fake ones ...
They provide 0 feedback as none are set up for dueling of any quality in fact they are likely to throw you a curve ball when you start dueling players that have a clue if you rely on NPC later on, thats my opinion and it seems to coincide with JR and Neo there.
K lets split this up for a second.....
Re low level dueling... seriously I have no interest in trying to stay 0 motive these days so I cant comment other than people I know on colorado arnt exactly impressed.
Dueling changes as you get higher, theres a curve or rather used to be when you had to change your build a bit as you got higher. For instance the classic resist build was always great low to mid level but..... high level good duelers would always blow a classic resist build to pieces later in the game.
Theres testing in the Lab ( NPC ) and then theres testing in the field, its a shame there arnt more vocal top class duelers commenting here as it would be great to hear from them in public,If you want to really know try mailing the really good dueling players and ask .... thats what I and others do to compare I assure you from chatting to quite a large number on various worlds most are finding the same thing....
High level dueling is a one trick pony, the rest are irrelevant according to not just me/ us here it seems.
Now if what your really saying is .... it dosnt matter for the masses because they are either too stupid or clueless to build properly then thats different but it dosnt change the good builds available have since the update dropped to one.
I can only conclude that dueling was more diverse enjoyable and a challenge previous to 1.33.
If it aint broke don't fix it .... or.... if you have a slight problem then fine tune it rather than take a hammer to the problem.
Remove soldiers tactics bonus and reduce resist formula slightly was all it ever needed .... the reason this was done IMO was to pander to the fort fighters.
LOL case in point the stupid 10k tanks now I very rarely hit all 8 rounds even with 300 aim... why ? because the stupid revamp of dodge just means the formula is very unlikely to grant it...
Well DF im not saying there arnt other builds, just that they are all inferior by a large margin now... seriously most duelers would care if they knew and as for combatting the aim dodge build ? well seeing as most dueling now comes down to guesswork on where you aim/dodge its real hard to see what would combat that... maybe 400 aim and 200 dodge is an attacker or reverse if a defender... the truth seems to be its just a toss of the coin and good guesswork... not what I play the game for.
PS Ms cobra if your going to delete a lot of these off topic posts please move them & open a new thread for us to debate seeing as my last one was closed By Diggo.
NPC as far as im concerned does absolutely nothing to help test duel builds I tried that when they first came out.... For one thing they are useless testing any defensive kind of set up plus as the boys just said they pose no challenge ... I dont look at anything on NPC apart from aim now and thats only after im above lvl 30 or so on the NPC... I click all day same as Neo and I find them of no use other than to keep motivation low or get a fast trip home.
For one thing those duel reports from JR 0 - 0 are similar to what ive been getting a fair amount of.... reason ? im dueling others with a similar build, I know because we talk and compare. BTW hells if you knew Judge youd know he only ever duels for XP and thats anyone in his range no exceptions including me even tho I may be 25 lvls above or so on some worlds & no 0 motivation with that so yea he'll lose a fair few yet those win figures are very impressive baring in mind his style of dueling and goal. And yes hes correct its BORING.
Anyway to recap heres my feedback.
Re NPC
They do not get better armed unless you are low lvl once high lvl they all have the same silly weapons, although ive never seen any with the golden colt or saber unless they are the fake ones ...
They provide 0 feedback as none are set up for dueling of any quality in fact they are likely to throw you a curve ball when you start dueling players that have a clue if you rely on NPC later on, thats my opinion and it seems to coincide with JR and Neo there.
K lets split this up for a second.....
Re low level dueling... seriously I have no interest in trying to stay 0 motive these days so I cant comment other than people I know on colorado arnt exactly impressed.
Dueling changes as you get higher, theres a curve or rather used to be when you had to change your build a bit as you got higher. For instance the classic resist build was always great low to mid level but..... high level good duelers would always blow a classic resist build to pieces later in the game.
Theres testing in the Lab ( NPC ) and then theres testing in the field, its a shame there arnt more vocal top class duelers commenting here as it would be great to hear from them in public,If you want to really know try mailing the really good dueling players and ask .... thats what I and others do to compare I assure you from chatting to quite a large number on various worlds most are finding the same thing....
High level dueling is a one trick pony, the rest are irrelevant according to not just me/ us here it seems.
Now if what your really saying is .... it dosnt matter for the masses because they are either too stupid or clueless to build properly then thats different but it dosnt change the good builds available have since the update dropped to one.
I can only conclude that dueling was more diverse enjoyable and a challenge previous to 1.33.
If it aint broke don't fix it .... or.... if you have a slight problem then fine tune it rather than take a hammer to the problem.
Remove soldiers tactics bonus and reduce resist formula slightly was all it ever needed .... the reason this was done IMO was to pander to the fort fighters.
LOL case in point the stupid 10k tanks now I very rarely hit all 8 rounds even with 300 aim... why ? because the stupid revamp of dodge just means the formula is very unlikely to grant it...
Well DF im not saying there arnt other builds, just that they are all inferior by a large margin now... seriously most duelers would care if they knew and as for combatting the aim dodge build ? well seeing as most dueling now comes down to guesswork on where you aim/dodge its real hard to see what would combat that... maybe 400 aim and 200 dodge is an attacker or reverse if a defender... the truth seems to be its just a toss of the coin and good guesswork... not what I play the game for.
PS Ms cobra if your going to delete a lot of these off topic posts please move them & open a new thread for us to debate seeing as my last one was closed By Diggo.
DeletedUser13388
On w13 i am level 111.
I am mainly dueling vs players from top 30 table.And almost all of them are pretty good duelers.And still i am winning 90 % of my duels there,no matter that i am not all Dex and all in aim and dodge.
On w10 and w11 i am with totally different builds, i will tell you what are the results versus pure dex/dodge/aim after 8-10 days.I havent tried the resistance yet, but i will reskill my char on w1 in resistance soon and will see how it works vs dex/aim/dodge.
Should do some friendly duels on w15 too.If someone is playing w15 and has pure dex/aim/dodge build, i am up for some arranged duels, mail me.I am lvl 67, so i need players between lvl 50-80.
P.S. :
On w7 i was pure Dex/aim/dodge.But recently reskilled in all dex and all in dodge.
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DeletedUser
DraGonFlyBG : What's your name on W10 & 11? On those I'm pure aim/dodge, would be good to test if our levels allow it.
I can tell you how resist works against aim/dodge after update......
No hit
Total health points
- 674 HP Judge R Bean wins the duel and gains 363 experience points. Mark Renton did not carry any cash and Judge R Bean walks away without taking any money.
No hit
Total health points
- 120 HP Judge R Bean wins the duel and gains 291 experience points. Barbaro73 did not carry any cash and Judge R Bean walks away without taking any money.
Total health points
- 250 HP
Total health points
- 257 HP Judge R Bean wins the duel and gains 402 experience points. Mark Renton did not carry any cash and Judge R Bean walks away without taking any money.
No hit
Total health points
- 270 HP Judge R Bean wins the duel, gains 286 experience points and steals $327 from Barbaro73.
They are level 120 and 119, after the update they went full resist reflex for some reason (hence my low hit for HP as I'm ranged), I hit them for 7 or 8 shots every duel, I have plenty more....
I really feel if you reskill to resist on W1 it will be a pointless exercise.
I can tell you how resist works against aim/dodge after update......
No hit
Total health points
- 674 HP Judge R Bean wins the duel and gains 363 experience points. Mark Renton did not carry any cash and Judge R Bean walks away without taking any money.
No hit
Total health points
- 120 HP Judge R Bean wins the duel and gains 291 experience points. Barbaro73 did not carry any cash and Judge R Bean walks away without taking any money.
Total health points
- 250 HP
Total health points
- 257 HP Judge R Bean wins the duel and gains 402 experience points. Mark Renton did not carry any cash and Judge R Bean walks away without taking any money.
No hit
Total health points
- 270 HP Judge R Bean wins the duel, gains 286 experience points and steals $327 from Barbaro73.
They are level 120 and 119, after the update they went full resist reflex for some reason (hence my low hit for HP as I'm ranged), I hit them for 7 or 8 shots every duel, I have plenty more....
I really feel if you reskill to resist on W1 it will be a pointless exercise.
DeletedUser
News to you Neo, In much of my testing I was using a shooter having outrageous aim/dodge (250ish aim, 400ish dodge). The ones that occasionally beat that character were mostly resist builds, but it wasn't limited to that. As I said once, and I say again, I performed over 300 duels, against PCs and NPCs, using 3 different builds, since the update. The changes implemented in this latest update are not signfiicant, and there is no imbalance that I've been able to determine. It is rather clear the problem presented here in this thread is very loud opinions, and not facts.
Please present facts to the table, demonstrate an imbalance, don't "tweet" it as gospel just because you have invested in an erroneous belief system, thanks. Too much pride & posturing going on here, not enough actual homework.
DeletedUser9470
w/e man, 300 duels is nothing. especially when you are trying to prove your theory and picking targets in that sense. ive done 10x the amount of duels you have vs all builds.
my results show that:
-before workers would always land 1 or 2 hits on me, now workers get hit harder and never hit me
-resist before won against me nearly every time, now they win under 10% of the time
-shooters dex dodge before won 60-70%, now they win 80-90%
-NPCs before would hit me on every duel like workers, now they never ever hit me, i dont even look.
now because there are no resist then im just hitting workers ftw. whats the point in deliberately losing?
some people think they know it, fact of the matter is i have 10k duel wins, they dont.
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DeletedUser
Neo, 300+ duels since the update, with the specific intent to test --- don't distort my words to argue a strawman. I participated in far more, both since and before the update, and you know this, so let's not try the ad hominem discrediting route, kay...
As to your claims, can you give definitive evidence of this change? Do you know if those workers who are hitting you decided to change their settings to something less primed for dueling? Do you know if the characters you think have resist, still have resist? Do you know if the shooters with dex dodge kept their builds the same or changed them since the update? Do you know if they guessed correctly your stances, and vice versa?
Again, your mistake, like the mistake of so many others naysaying the scene here, is that you're not obtaining definitive tests and instead posing statistical claims without evidence and without consideration that PCs may (and mostly likely) have changed their stats. That is precisely why testing with NPCs gives good answers. Victor's fallacy-driven rant about testing with NPCs is without merit. In fact, it is without logic.
Opinions are aplenty, facts not so much. So, once again, I'm one man, non-staff, requesting definitive (and comparative) tests that demonstrate a problem. Let's have unbiased presentations and statistically accurate assessments.
DeletedUser9470
I can read thank you, 300 is pathetic, like I said ive done at least 3000.
When you do this amount of dueling you end up hitting the same people a lot...
that means yes I know exactly how things changed.
I know when an opponent hits me red, and i know after a result were he is dodging, i also know from the result itself roughly what build they have. its not rocket science.
Look man, Im a 0% duelist and always have been on w10, I took 0% to the next level learning from the best, I duel all day every day, i kick out between 15 and 25 PC duels/day and about 10 NPC duels every day.
Why would I want to bs this post? I dont give a crap! Ive been there and got the t-shirt, Im giving feedback for inno, no one else.
The thing with you mr HS is that you are asking to prove something impossible to prove.
You know that and play that card every time.
You cannot compare 2 duels theres a luck factor involved and even when you change nothing at all, no stance change, no build change, cothing, nothing, you still get different results.
we all know this
as such the only way of measuring any variation is with a larger amount of duels.
There are some things though that show straight away, like workers or NPCs not ever landing hits where once they did on every duel.
Thats a massive difference, and a good one should you be 0%.
THIS IS WHY THE UPDATE HAS FOR ME GONE THE WRONG WAY. I thought the update was supposed to help out the non duelers a bit more...
BUT I did warn you before the update, over and over again.
For sure i am not going to give you a screenshot of 3000 duels like you request. I have nothing to prove, Im telling you how it is:
At the moment ranged dext dodge is even more overpowered than it was before.
for me the only change needed was for ranged to be nerfed very slightly because they were advantaged with the xtra sps they got frm the dext build.
already when i was level 30 irufis ranged duelist caned my premium tactics every time. already back then ranged was overpowered!
I dont care, im still staying char, and ranged can come cane me if they like im not fussed. Ive got 10k duel wins and it will be a long time before anyone else sets another landmark like that.
You talk as if I have something to prove.
If you dont believe me then fine, but dont come telling me im wrong in my domain of expertise. thats like me giving you lessons in noobness. clearly you dont need any
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DeletedUser
Great, so give a report instead of attacking others and making unsubstantiated claims.
DeletedUser16008
Man you do like trying to bait me dont you Hells ?
You crack on with your NPC study and let me know what worlds your on ... ill pop over and field test on you hows that ?
You crack on with your NPC study and let me know what worlds your on ... ill pop over and field test on you hows that ?