Duelling changes - The West Beta!

[Deleted User - 1693871]

Duelling should be like every other energy consuming aspect of the game. With every 12 energy spent, the motivation should drop by the same amount as a job, and the cash and experience gained per duel should be affected by the motivation level as per jobs. Like a job, cash and experience could be 100% between the motivation range of 76%-100% and drop as per a normal job. Motivation should also be reset every night to 100%, the same as for jobs. Motivation for duelling should not therefore be restricted to 1% as that would make it different to other aspects of the game.

Motivation resetting to 100% every night, and cash gained from a duel depending on motivation, are what I also suggested earlier in this thread.

I like your suggestion of the effect of the duel motivation drop falling in stages the way job motivation does in jobs now.

Further, I'd like to repeat a suggestion I made earlier in this thread, that the energy required to initiate a duel could be reduced to 6, and duel motivation reduce by 6% too. That would finally reduce the energy to start a duel in line with the way the energy needed to start an hour job was reduced from 24 to 12. Duels generally even including travel time take less than an hour.

 

[DeletedUser36979]

No offence here, but unless you are part of the moderation team, it really isn't something that you or I - or the vast majority of players - need to worry about... unless you are thinking of pushing cash that way? It is much easier just to transfer the money through the bank to a player as there are less fees involved.

I have no intention of pushing cash, but I would like to know that the moderation team actually have a chance to see if it is a case of pushing or self-KO, since pushing is illegal and should be punished... but arrange when and where on a social media or on the phone, and it will be hard to determine, and making self-KO'ing legal will just make it easier to mask pushing bounties on yourself to friends, or as part of the payment for a nice jacket on the market...
The possibilities for abuse of the rule change is huge, and something that should be addressed before making self-KO legal.

 

[DeletedUser22685]

Personally I think it's best if we refrain from drawing our own conclusions on the pushing side of things until a CM comes and clarifies the official point of view once and for all. In terms of exp pushing, we decided a few years ago when pillow fights were all the rage that a duel could only be considered pushing if stances were coordinated between two players. If you start getting into the gear side of things, it becomes way too ambiguous and difficult to provide objective proof without being forced to ban innocents as well.

Bounty pushing is the bigger issue here as many people have pointed out. It was quite clear cut previously, but since the introduction of the cash transfer feature and subsequent removal of the market pushing limitations it's become a little ambiguous.

Anyway, arguing about it or posting our own theories will only serve to distort the general perception of the rule further. I'm not going to get involved.

 

[DeletedUser]

update when on beta ? next week ?

 

[Ripwise]

update when on beta ? next week ?

Yeah, something like that if everything will be allright.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yeah, something like that if everything will be allright.

Thanks for the info! :laugh:

 

[Girlie]

More or less all fortfighters have a lot of HP. and having all that hp, you wont feel a duel on you.
I think it is a very good idea to remove the job ko. You can still get your ko, now you just have to duel another player. I guess it is legal to duel without clothes and weapons on you, so I cant see the problem.
This way the big bounties, will changes hands now

 

[delldell56]

The dueling option has always been a big part of the game and people who exploited the bug "Job KO" now need to find another solution if they don't want to be dueled.

And I say bug because that is what it has always been. There is no relation between doing a job and a duel. Then there is no logical explanation why a job KO should prevent you from dueling (or getting dueled).

i won't argue about this, although i am very much against this change. i'll just go back to crashing a surprised well geared dueler to ko myself, but that takes time and more energy and sometimes longs walks too.

as for the "no relation between doing a job and a duel" statement, i'll just say it's not the same to die of natural causes, of a short or long fatal disease, of getting hit by a bus or shot in the head by a criminal. they are all different causes that end with the same result: you are dead. if you are a bus driver who crashes and dies, a window washer who falls off 20 stories to death, etcetera, you die in the job just the same as if you were caught in the middle of a shooting during a bank robbery. pardon me, jobs can sometimes be dangerous as well.

 

[DeletedUser36979]

The dueling option has always been a big part of the game and people who exploited the bug "Job KO" now need to find another solution if they don't want to be dueled.

And I say bug because that is what it has always been. There is no relation between doing a job and a duel. Then there is no logical explanation why a job KO should prevent you from dueling (or getting dueled).

§7) Bugs
Each player is required to report serious or critical errors immediately to game support. A player must not take advantage of a bug, in doing so they have violated the rules.

hmmm... why haven't that rule been followed, and people punished for exploiting a bug?

Just a little food for thought, before opening up for the next rule is being hollowed out, and punishing people for pushing made impossible, since it will be impossible to tell the difference between pushing a bounty, or self-KO'ing with a bounty...

 

[DeletedUser22685]

Like I said earlier, wait until a CM is available to comment. You're not going to get a reliable answer until then, so you might as well save your fingers the effort of typing the same post over and over using different words.

 

[Girlie]

hm.. I thought I gave my input yesterday, nut cant find it now

I actually like this new duelling system. yes fortfighters cant be hiding anymore, and so what? they often have so much hp, that it wont hurt them a bit.
I am a fort fighter my self, so I know what I am talking about.
Also as a bonus, duellers now have a chance to take away those extreme big bounties, some ppl are running arround with.

I like this new idea

 

[DeletedUser36559]

Just one Question has been bugging me for a while are Inno for or against ZMD's? With this new update they won't need a reason to become a ZMD but we know there will still be tons of ZMD's out there doing it for the wrong reasons and 1% (yes 1% is meant to be against but it won't do much) and removal of Job-KO is BOTH in favor of ZMDs. Then previously we had the splitting of NPCs and player motivations AGAINST ZMDs but they have easily found a way over it by dueling the lowest lvl player in their range. On one hand you bash them and put them all under the same banner and in the other hand you don't want to get rid of that style of gameplay but this update hasn't solved this issue, the only issue it has solved is for the Xp duelers out there.

 

[Ripwise]

Just one Question has been bugging me for a while are Inno for or against ZMD's? With this new update they won't need a reason to become a ZMD but we know there will still be tons of ZMD's out there doing it for the wrong reasons and 1% (yes 1% is meant to be against but it won't do much) and removal of Job-KO is BOTH in favor of ZMDs. Then previously we had the splitting of NPCs and player motivations AGAINST ZMDs but they have easily found a way over it by dueling the lowest lvl player in their range. On one hand you bash them and put them all under the same banner and in the other hand you don't want to get rid of that style of gameplay but this update hasn't solved this issue, the only issue it has solved is for the Xp duelers out there.

This update will hopefully show that ZMD dueling is no longer needed. Excuse in the past was lack of targets which this update fixes.

As for xp duelers: They can finally get back to dueling and have targets. In the last few years i seen xp duelers get to verry high duel level and reskill to i.e trading and went townless. With this update, those townless duelers can reskill back to dueling and become active again.

 

[DeletedUser36979]

Like I said earlier, wait until a CM is available to comment. You're not going to get a reliable answer until then, so you might as well save your fingers the effort of typing the same post over and over using different words.

And you don't consider Desi Boukerse a Co-Manager as a CM? He is an official representative for the company, and states that job-KO is a bug, and the rules clearly states that exploiting a bug is against the rules.... Can't get more clear cut than that.

And since it all seems so clear for you, please explain how to spot the difference between self-KO'ing with a bounty and pushing a bounty. That is what will be expected from staff when this is implemented.

 

[Ripwise]

And you don't consider Desi Boukerse a Co-Manager as a CM? He is an official representative for the company, and states that job-KO is a bug, and the rules clearly states that exploiting a bug is against the rules.... Can't get more clear cut than that.

And since it all seems so clear for you, please explain how to spot the difference between self-KO'ing with a bounty and pushing a bounty. That is what will be expected from staff when this is implemented.

And i dont see how is interpretation of rules any of your bussines. CMs and Moderation staff is taking care of those things and you dont need to wrap your head around it.

EDIT: With money transfer option, i dont see why would anyone want to bounty push in the first place.

 

[DeletedUser34876]

I agree with many things on here. Job KO was a bug. Shouldn't be there. However I also believe ZMD shouldn't be there. Changing it to 1% is just a piss in the ocean. Raising it would make it fairer in my eyes. And of course why isn't duelling motivation and money reward proportionate? Isn't it as big of a bug as job-KO? Ok slightly smaller but still.

I have been 0-mot, xp-mot, fortfighter etc. I have tried all aspects of this game. There is always an upside and a downside to your build. I have let my character go without KO for a long time while being a fortfighter. As I have a high duel level this has made a lot of people attacking me, almost to the point where I had to go KO. Imagine 6 different duellers hitting you in 2 ho urs when you are not skilled for it, this happened to me more than once. Now more targets so less duels on the ones available. Ok fair enough lets try it.

One crazy idea I had was why not lower the damage done with duelling mot? Say 100-75% full damage, 75-50% mot 90% damage, 50-25% 80% damage and 25-1% 70% damage. These are just numbers taken out of the sky but it would be another downside for ZMT.

All in all the update seem to be made to bring some life into duelling which has been suffering badly for a long time. However it will come at the cost of fortfighting which is also suffering. So I don't think the timing is very good.

In my idea to balance the update there are at least 3 things that needs to be done:
1. Prolong duel KO, 24/72 style
2. Reward for duelling directly proportionate to duel mot.
3. Increase 1% to a higher number.

Anything that pushes people to go townless is a bad thing in my book. I am only still playing as I like the people here. If this was a solo game I would have quit after a year.

And last but not least it wouldn't surprise me that there is one or two new sets coming out very very shortly that will help those people that feel hard done-by by this update.

Just spend more cash and you will be fine - The Inno Way

 

[DeletedUser22685]

And you don't consider Desi Boukerse a Co-Manager as a CM? He is an official representative for the company, and states that job-KO is a bug, and the rules clearly states that exploiting a bug is against the rules.... Can't get more clear cut than that.

And since it all seems so clear for you, please explain how to spot the difference between self-KO'ing with a bounty and pushing a bounty. That is what will be expected from staff when this is implemented.

Desi's post was at the beginning of the thread. There have been several posts debating the nature of the pushing rule since then and my point was that until Desi or Twista post again there's no point in continuing to speculate. You're asking questions that can only be answered officially by those two people, what more is there that I can say before you understand that?

If it was clear for me I'd give you the answers you've been demanding repeatedly rather than asking you to wait. By all means continue to take out of my posts things that aren't really there, but please don't put words in my mouth.

And as for the Bug rule that you quoted (since apparently debating one rule isn't enough), Inno consciously allowed job KOs to remain part of the game. Whether they were a bug initially or not is irrelevant at this point, as it's obvious that we're not going to go round banning everybody who ever got KOed on a job. Also bear in mind that job KO protection was never classed officially as a bug. Those of us who refer to it as such do so merely to point out that it meets all the requirements.

EDIT: But I digress. I'm not going to respond to any more posts on this topic as it's unrelated to the thread and the discussion at hand.

 

[DeletedUser34295]

And i dont see how is interpretation of rules any of your bussines. CMs and Moderation staff is taking care of those things and you dont need to wrap your head around it.

EDIT: With money transfer option, i dont see why would anyone want to bounty push in the first place.

This is false, it has very much to do with the player how rules are interpreted. It's we who have to make the choice of what we do and don't do in-game. And to make fair choices, staff must be fair on how they interpret and enforce the rules. As an example with this update, people might want to use self-KO for protection but we're not sure whether it will all be looked upon as bounty pushing or not, therefor we're bringing up the topic to discussion.

To have both players AND staff understanding the rules in the same way is equally as important as having them in the first place. It would be absolutely ridiculous to have rules that the players don't understand, since it will open up to an insecure player base that aren't sure of where the lines are drawn. Not to mention, it sounds to me like staff doesn't even know how to treat this specific question meaning it might even open up to different staff members making different decisions, which can also lead to unfair treatment of certain players.

So yes, wrapping your head around how the rules are interpreted by staff members is very, very important for a good gaming community and game experience in general.

EDIT: This, of course, doesn't mean that this is the right forum/thread to do it. But it IS in fact an important discussion!

 

[Ripwise]

This is false, it has very much to do with the player how rules are interpreted. It's we who have to make the choice of what we do and don't do in-game. And to make fair choices, staff must be fair on how they interpret and enforce the rules. As an example with this update, people might want to use self-KO for protection but we're not sure whether it will all be looked upon as bounty pushing or not, therefor we're bringing up the topic to discussion.

To have both players AND staff understanding the rules in the same way is equally as important as having them in the first place. It would be absolutely ridiculous to have rules that the players don't understand, since it will open up to an insecure player base that aren't sure of where the lines are drawn. Not to mention, it sounds to me like staff doesn't even know how to treat this specific question meaning it might even open up to different staff members making different decisions, which can also lead to unfair treatment of certain players.

So yes, wrapping your head around how the rules are interpreted by staff members is very, very important for a good gaming community and game experience in general.

EDIT: This, of course, doesn't mean that this is the right forum/thread to do it. But it IS in fact an important discussion!

People still dont seem to understand. Why would you push bounty if you can easily give money to other player, isnt it logical that one rule cancels other out? Why go trough trouble of fixing the duel to get certain amount of bounty when you can simply send the money?

 

[DeletedUser34295]

People still dont seem to understand. Why would you push bounty if you can easily give money to other player, isnt it logical that one rule cancels other out? Why go trough trouble of fixing the duel to get certain amount of bounty when you can simply send the money?

We don't really care about how the rules are interpreted, merely that staff tells us about it. Using duels to self-KO is most likely going to be a new thing due to the removal of job-KO, we just don't want to end up banned because some staff member looks at your duel and says it's some kind of pushing. All we want is security really, it shouldn't be so hard to bring.