Rejected Dueling improvements with rewards

[1Big Chief]

i agree with bambera and voted against, though i see that this idea been well spammed in some 0 mot duelling towns to get good support.

Deja Vu .. she said the same thing about my Duel Showdown idea :laugh: .. somewhat lob-sided imo
I've come to 1 conclusion.. Zeta is Pro Fort Fighting.. ONLY don't give a crap about the rest
Several of us pro FF spice our game up when FF dies down.. then we go duel a bit
If we choose to go 0-mot to keep things interesting.. so what.. don't force your choices on the rest
People like you make a target for yourselves & anyone close to you... THINK

16 more "yes" and we have 80% that is needed.. All these before Zeta's gang bang come again..

No Worries... she tried to derail The Showdown vote... and failed.. will here again
The west needs to be the west again... Fun Dueling.. hand in hand with Fort Fighting
Both can co-exist just fine.. with the questers too

One thing has to be done... so duelers can duel MORE duelers.. you should be happy ? .. but

 

[DeletedUser]

i am a he big chief but i don't care if this get submitted or not, cos in all honesty it will never ever be implemented anyway .

And if you seen my posting history you see i made many proposals about many aspects of the game, but a proposal that makes every non duellers easy food for bored to death duellers, will not solve duelling, and is on the long run just hurtfull for the game. and thats why you can submit a 100 similar proposals like these, and get dissapointed every time it won't get implemented, since devs are smart enough to not suicide their game due to a few bored duellers.

lastly big chief like i said before, duellers that can choose between 50 easy targets or 10 hard duellers, opt in my experience and from what i seen on many worlds for those 50 easy ones, they like to get wins, thats all that matters, so if you give duellers more targets, its not the duellers they will duel, you see that with 0 mot duellers as well who barely ever duel eachother.

still i love all the personal flaming i get here, guess its to hard to give me 1 solid argument why this change would benefit anyone besides duellers, since i am still very interested in any good solid point about why this change is any good for those people who aren't duellers, actually, i can only see detrimental aspects of this idea for them. I am being called selfish, but isn't it selfish you only want something that actually benefits yourself? and as Z says they get duelled a lot already (they do but i am not a dueller atm anywhere but or am on permanent ko, yet i hardly get duelled on most worlds simply because my DL is very very low, getting in the scope of all those duellers will get me duelled a lot more, and that doesn't only goes for me, that goes for most non duellers. its just an egoistic proposal.

Ps big chief, i love it how you guys busy collecting votes, 1 mass telegram could easly get 50 no votes but we got 11 more days of voting so its no fun already ruining your guys massive add campaign (tal;k about senseless voting how you guys are promoting it btw)

 

[DeletedUser34315]

Ps big chief, i love it how you guys busy collecting votes, 1 mass telegram could easly get 50 no votes but we got 11 more days of voting so its no fun already ruining your guys massive add campaign (tal;k about senseless voting how you guys are promoting it btw)

Do you have any idea how hypocritical that is after you did the exact same thing?

 

[DeletedUser]

Do you have any idea how hypocritical that is after you did the exact same thing?

i posted a link on the general chats, thats something different then spamming a link in telegram of the alliance. But imo this discussion has been done on the showdown idea of 1big chief (where he\she wrongly accuses me i actually tried to sabotage that since i even voted in favor) but it was noted that with over 400 total votes casted there was some very big advertising done (like somehow happens on most duelling ideas) which according to some totally messed up the credibility of the poll.

What has happened now is no different, a group of duellers take an idea put it up for vote and all vote yes, a non dueller reads it and is kinda revolted of the idea all non duellers should become even worse cannonfodder then they already are, and in the alliance chat posts a link posts a link with do vote against if you don't want every dueller to become a 0 mot dueller, i think in the hour after i posted that maybe 5 no votes were added. The rest of the no votes is prolly of people seeing this topic the entire time in most recent topics and vote for it, the most yes votes are due to promotion activities cos somehow people here think i am non stop spamming everyone to vote no no no, since they can't comprehend that most players actually dislike duellers hitting them non stop, and don't wanna support such an idea.

And ideas to make duelling interesting again actually that 1 bigchief idea was actually quite good, and which was submitted, yet like most submissions the devs got different ideas(to put it nicely )

 

[DeletedUser23737]

Looks like a great idea to me.

 

[1Big Chief]

My apologies then Zeta.. on girls name.. lol.. and accusing you against all duelers too
Didn't note that you supported the Showdown idea.. but know you are pro FF
I was too for my 1st 3-4 years playing this game.. but opted to punish some ole bullies

I know there are way too many duelers dueling for self win glory .. or town stats
I duel an enemy town.. all except the workers... unless its #1 enemy town on world 1
My dueling buddies.. we hit more duelers (+ innocent bystanders) .. rather than chasing the weak
I will agree with you there... it really can't be good for many out there being hit
but I went through it.. being attacked.. but never ko'd.. as I was a tank all that time
Others might not be so lucky... but sure most will get through it.. and return the favour.. just like me

One thing is sure... dueling has to be spiced up.. so these hard core duelers can get more action
and also Without worrying that they will not have much targets later on because of spiraling duel mot

There are many times a good populated world turn players from battles
You can't tell them sorry.. go quest... if they can't go duel ?

Frankly... Inno should introduce that all players can have 2 builds... by flick of a switch
What you decide is up to you... FF + Duel combo ... FF + Quests combo .. just good gear will be a bigger factor
But should give everyone a descent opportunity of choices.. or easier for revenge vs a dueler
This should level the playing fields in a big way.. dunno.. just a thought

 

[DeletedUser]

My apologies then Zeta.. on girls name.. lol.. and accusing you against all duelers too
Didn't note that you supported the Showdown idea.. but know you are pro FF
I was too for my 1st 3-4 years playing this game.. but opted to punish some ole bullies

I know there are way too many duelers dueling for self win glory .. or town stats
I duel an enemy town.. all except the workers... unless its #1 enemy town on world 1
My dueling buddies.. we hit more duelers (+ innocent bystanders) .. rather than chasing the weak
I will agree with you there... it really can't be good for many out there being hit
but I went through it.. being attacked.. but never ko'd.. as I was a tank all that time
Others might not be so lucky... but sure most will get through it.. and return the favour.. just like me

One thing is sure... dueling has to be spiced up.. so these hard core duelers can get more action
and also Without worrying that they will not have much targets later on because of spiraling duel mot

There are many times a good populated world turn players from battles
You can't tell them sorry.. go quest... if they can't go duel ?

Frankly... Inno should introduce that all players can have 2 builds... by flick of a switch
What you decide is up to you... FF + Duel combo ... FF + Quests combo .. just good gear will be a bigger factor
But should give everyone a descent opportunity of choices.. or easier for revenge vs a dueler
This should level the playing fields in a big way.. dunno.. just a thought

i totally agree something needs to be done with duelling, and inno is actually working on it, however i cannot agree with something that basically serves more people to be cannonfodder for duellers, it is already one of the biggest frustrations of many people that play the constant duelling where they stand absolutely not chance of winning such a duel, and i fear this change will certainly not improve that. I duelled as well done about 300 duels and found it quite boring, simply for the reason there was so little amount of opposition. But this idea isn't gonna solve that.

If you look at the new formula they are currently testing for fortfighting on the beta (the formula is a sheer horror) that formula will have a massive influence on fortfighting builds. You say well what i care, well the influence will be you get forters with 200 aim and dodge(since if you wanna hit or dodge a thing in the new formula suddenly aim and dodge are extremely important) it won't make em proper duellers, but it could spice up the playing field(unintentionally but still).

Your showdown is a good idea, we have been promised multiplayer events for a long time, yet nothing happened, but again i can see why duellers want to have something changed, but i strongly oppose to this idea simply since it turns(though it might not be the intention of the idea) non duellers in even bigger cannonfodder then they already are. Knowing how frustrated many are by getting duelled all over already, this idea will only (though it might not be the intention of the idea) increase that frustration even more).

 

[Pankreas PorFavor]

I've been playing this game for 5 years, as a quester, builder, FFer, dueler - 0mot and xp... I've tried it all. And after going through all 7 pages of this thread and all the discussion, I still haven't heard one valid argument to support the statement "non-duelers should not be dueled." Why is that? How has this become a universal truth?
"I cannot defend myself. = I shouldn't be attacked." Oh, really? What's next? "Our are alliance cannot defend our forts. = They shouldn't be attacked." Is that what we want? "We invested hours and hours in building the forts, why should some bullies take it away from us now, boo-hoo..."

Dueling is a part of the game since day one, and when I started this game I got KOd many times and more experienced players taught me this - The West is a marathon. You cannot be good at everything at the same time. You will be attacked - learn to protect yourself. If you want to specialize for quests or jobs - be ready to take that risk and be defenseless. Remember, reskill, revenge. Later, when forts came - same thing. Want to be a fort fighter? Well, sorry, you will suck at duels, and you will lose on a regular basis. Learn to live with it.
Or balance your build. Be a jack of all trades and master of none. Sure, you will still lose some duels, but you will hurt your attacker and they will think twice before attacking again. You will be able to work on most jobs and finish quests, and you will do well in battles. Balance it. Look at this game as a whole, and think about all aspects of it. Don't expect to have everything handed out to you. It is a multiplayer role playing game, and there are all kinds of people sharing it with you. There's all kinds of interaction, good and bad. Embrace it all, or play solitaire. It is, after all, the WILD west.

Of course, duelers are bad, ugly, vicious people and we hate them all. Oh, except in that one world where I still duel. In that world it is just another part of the game that is fun. Or if I'm not going to be sarcastic - just stop being so lazy! My FFer hasn't been attacked for months. After the battle, queue 15 sec on work as a marshal - 48h of peace. My pure trader tries to break up gangs at the end of the day, when money is banked and energy low - again, 48h without worries. It's easy, it's effective, it doesn't affect your gameplay at all. But guess what's easier? *****ing and moaning and trying to get rid of one part of this game that has been here since the start. Just fight back, it's a challenge just as the next one.

There's actually only one thing about dueling that is wrong. It probably shouldn't be called dueling. 9 times out of 10 duelers are bandits, and in a role playing game such as this one, this role is as valid as the next one.

 

[DeletedUser23437]

you know, I actually do see Zeta's main point..

I know this is a game, but Inno does try real hard to make it feel like the American West, when Indians still roamed the great plains, cowboys drove their herds from Texas to St. Louis, people traveled to California in the hopes of easy gold, settlers tried to earn a living by plowing the ground in Kansas, and the cavalier fought of the more energetic indians.

As far as the game goes, Duelers I believe, represent either the outlaws that roamed the West, living day to day on their abilities to use thier guns, or lawmen, who went out to stop these outlaws. Outlaws did not go around robbing and dueling every farmer and cattle hand that came by, because first the cash was not as good, as if you went after a train, the stage coach, or even a bank. And second, I think they really wanted to be known as the best, and killing some farmer was not away of showing how good you were, but facing another outlaw or lawman and winning, mad your reputation grow. Lawmen, well they followed the star on their chest and the wanted posters hanging on the wall.

So I did vote yes for this, as it is a step in the direction to maybe bring back to life this part of the west, that seems to be slipping away. But it still needs some work on it. I have posted before, I know and will do it again here, I think part of what ever is done should be based on a players win:lose ratio. If a player has more wins then loses, most likely, he likes dueling, or at least makes an effort to duel and win, and beating him should reap some benifit in your reputation. But someone who has more loses then wins, means they most likely try to avoid duels and are here for other reasons then dueling, and beating such a person in a duel would reduce your overall reputation.

Now I know this was long winded, and I am sorry, and I maybe beating a dead horse, but this is something I think should be part of anything Inno does, as it helps to make duelers focus on those who actually duel if they want a good reputation and maybe win some bonds and avoid those who'd rather not duel and lose the chance to win bonds in the end.

 

[DeletedUser]

wel at least the discussion in on , so now all you who are for and against work something out you all could agree on and can pass that with a 100%

 

[canufeelit]

voted no

this idea is overly complicated in its current form and disadvantages 2 of the main "active" groups left in the west, ie. low mot duelers and forters. by active i mean the ones buying nuggets...

and as i say everytime this discussion comes up every couple of months, a simple 1% base rate for dueling would work well.

 

[DeletedUser35337]

Wow, that was a lot to get thru. But at least I did skim it before giving it a YES vote. And now, I am going to add my 2 cents.

I can't say that I 100% understand all of the numerous suggestions and/or arguments made in here, as I really did just skim thru it, but a couple of things did stick out to me:

1. Zeta, you kept saying to adjust the XP points and the high level duelers can just see how many more targets they would have. Umm, wouldn't that adjustment need to be made across the board? Thus, while there would be an increase in targets, I don't think it would be as HUGE as insinuated.
2. If I understand this correctly, duel levels won't necessarily go away they just won't be used to distinguish between targets. IF (sorry if I am wrong here) this is the case and the duel level is used to establish the experience you get winning a duel, then it would reduce the number of duels against noncombatants. For instance, if I duel another dueler I may get 100 (just to pull a number out of my .... ear ) XP whereas if I duel a FFer then I may only get 10 (that came out of the other ear) XP. If I am competing for the title of Best dueler of the month and an ... ear load of bonds then I would much rather duel a dueler than spend all day hitting FFers for the same ultimate number.
3. This was mentioned in here but I feel it needs repeating, who says one group deserves protection? I chose to be a dueler, because of that I have limited safe jobs and am typically overlooked when it comes time to defend a fort, but I get to shoot cyber people. The FFers and builders chose what they wanted to do here and as a result they typically have better jobs to do and get the opportunity to earn 4500 xp and an ... ear full of bonds for an hour of work, but they get to be our cyber targets. What in that says that they deserve protection for their decisions? They get the benefits so let them have the consequences as well.

Sorry for getting wordy, I don't post often and that is why. As most know I am a dueler and for the most part I am a Low motivation one. I duel everyone but I much prefer a challenge, there is no excitement/nervousness watching the timer click down on a worker/FFer. Give me a reward for spending the extra time looking for and traveling to a better challenge and I guarantee I will do just that and thus maximize my energy consumption. Of course I will also still hit the occasional noncombatant, just out of sheer spite (actually I usually do this when stepping away from the computer for a few minutes) and in hopes of getting that cherished fan mail, but I do that now anyways .


THE END

 

[Bad Billy Jack]

Inno is not stupid & will never put this one into effect. To the contrary, inno knows full well that duelers prey mainly on the weak & that is why inno is looking into the arena idea.

Arena = protects non-duelers & forces duelers to duel other duelers.

The entire reason inno introduced the dl was to protect non-duelers. Duelers now want that gone of course.

Duelers no longer duel with stone knives & bearskins as in the old game. They are now pros, taught by who came before, pushed with great gear even at low levels, with fantastic weapons & nugget gear. Duelers are waay too powerful now.

You tell non-duelers to suck it up & even destroy their community game by going townless.

I say you duelers suck it up. Your dl too high cuz you spent years & years dueling the weak, you have options. Go crafting

What the games does NOT need is everyone being a zero mot dueler. This is exactly what this proposal does.

What inno really needs to do is keep dl but eliminate zero mots totally. The duel mot goes down much too quickly now & needs to be reset to 100% every day.

I voted no

 

[DeletedUser]

As i see it Zeta's point of view is that duelers should not be alowed to duel anyone without Zeta's permission, nor should they be given any rewards for their efforts. Why? Because he/she says so!
In a nutshell that is how i see his/hers attitude.

Proposed rewards system is skinny but its a step in right direction, it isn't normal that the best players in one enormous segment of the game receive no reward for their efforts and invested money.
To illustrate my point compare amount of bonds pro forter and pro dueler makes in a month.
No sane person would argue against prpoposal that would give duelers piece of cake, but than again we are not dealing with sane people here.

Regarding rant about zeromots i have nothing to add to perfect post Pankreas made one page ago.

 

[DeletedUser34315]

Inno is not stupid & will never put this one into effect. To the contrary, inno knows full well that duelers prey mainly on the weak & that is why inno is looking into the arena idea.

Arena = protects non-duelers & forces duelers to duel other duelers.

The entire reason inno introduced the dl was to protect non-duelers. Duelers now want that gone of course.

Duelers no longer duel with stone knives & bearskins as in the old game. They are now pros, taught by who came before, pushed with great gear even at low levels, with fantastic weapons & nugget gear. Duelers are waay too powerful now.

You tell non-duelers to suck it up & even destroy their community game by going townless.

I say you duelers suck it up. Your dl too high cuz you spent years & years dueling the weak, you have options. Go crafting

What the games does NOT need is everyone being a zero mot dueler. This is exactly what this proposal does.

What inno really needs to do is keep dl but eliminate zero mots totally. The duel mot goes down much too quickly now & needs to be reset to 100% every day.

I voted no

Yeah, these guys are the picture of weakness.
http://prntscr.com/1z7do9
http://prntscr.com/1z7e5m

If we spent years and years dueling the weak, we'd have a low dueling level!

The dueling level currently serves as a way of penalizing those who actually choose hard targets to fight. If you pick hard fights, and duel with your motivation above 0, you will very rapidly outstrip any duelers around you.
Having every player's motivation reset to 100% every night will not magically provide a lot of targets for exp. duelers.
The average player, who duels maybe twice a day for bonds, will not catch up to the high dueling level players.
The 0 mots, deprived of their easy wins (I've been a 0 mot, it's a bloody lot easier to do. You can duel anyone in the duel window without really worrying about gear, stance, etc.) will largely reskill to other things, and those who stay pure dueler will still not reach a high dueling level for at least a year and a half.

Allowing players to duel others based upon character level would be more fair. Then, the dueling level would serve as a way to tell how frequently the player dueled hard targets, not as a way to restrict targets.

 

[DeletedUser16008]

This thread has gone from a simple vote option to yet again the whole issue and what to do... at least in part

there are so many simple fixes, for example Potion of 50% duel level reduction usage only at duel level 400 + price 500 nuggets or 500 bonds etc

You cant tell me anyone with a dl of 200 dosnt or hasnt dueled a fair bit.... ie fair game

hey presto no getting bored if your a top dueler xp race carry on raise up dl and repeat when at 400 + etc

If skills can be reset for a price to allow people to change and continue to enjoy playing for the life of me I see no reason why duelers xp has to force them to do something they dont want or just die of boredom or worse quit ...makes no sense

 

[DeletedUser19518]

Sad to see that another good idea is gonna fail cuz 25% decide to vote "no"
In which Democracy 25% decide what is gonna happen?
Maybe its time think again about 80% and why not 51%.. as it work in all democratic countries.

 

[DeletedUser34767]

If we are on the topic of simple fixes, why not just set an effective duel level maximum of 240. You could treat any duel level above 240 as 240 for purposes of who can be dueled and still leave the higher actual duel level alone for scoring purposes. An effective duel level of 240 should be high enough not to totally freak out non-duelers as they are not likely to be in this range, but still give the higher ranked duelers some more targets.

I just used 240 as it was twice the maximum character level, but it could be any number.

I'm more interested to see what the 'fix' for 0 motivation dueling that Inno says is coming. I was hoping they would settle this and their new fort formula before they release the rumored 'E' world, but that is probably wishful thinking. The fort battle formula is probably not that important in this regard as you can always re-skill, but with duel level you are stuck with it forever.

 

[HelenBack]

I've been playing this game for 5 years, as a quester, builder, FFer, dueler - 0mot and xp... I've tried it all. And after going through all 7 pages of this thread and all the discussion, I still haven't heard one valid argument to support the statement "non-duelers should not be dueled." Why is that? How has this become a universal truth?
"I cannot defend myself. = I shouldn't be attacked." Oh, really? What's next? "Our are alliance cannot defend our forts. = They shouldn't be attacked." Is that what we want? "We invested hours and hours in building the forts, why should some bullies take it away from us now, boo-hoo..."

Dueling is a part of the game since day one, and when I started this game I got KOd many times and more experienced players taught me this - The West is a marathon. You cannot be good at everything at the same time. You will be attacked - learn to protect yourself. If you want to specialize for quests or jobs - be ready to take that risk and be defenseless. Remember, reskill, revenge. Later, when forts came - same thing. Want to be a fort fighter? Well, sorry, you will suck at duels, and you will lose on a regular basis. Learn to live with it.
Or balance your build. Be a jack of all trades and master of none. Sure, you will still lose some duels, but you will hurt your attacker and they will think twice before attacking again. You will be able to work on most jobs and finish quests, and you will do well in battles. Balance it. Look at this game as a whole, and think about all aspects of it. Don't expect to have everything handed out to you. It is a multiplayer role playing game, and there are all kinds of people sharing it with you. There's all kinds of interaction, good and bad. Embrace it all, or play solitaire. It is, after all, the WILD west.

Of course, duelers are bad, ugly, vicious people and we hate them all. Oh, except in that one world where I still duel. In that world it is just another part of the game that is fun. Or if I'm not going to be sarcastic - just stop being so lazy! My FFer hasn't been attacked for months. After the battle, queue 15 sec on work as a marshal - 48h of peace. My pure trader tries to break up gangs at the end of the day, when money is banked and energy low - again, 48h without worries. It's easy, it's effective, it doesn't affect your gameplay at all. But guess what's easier? *****ing and moaning and trying to get rid of one part of this game that has been here since the start. Just fight back, it's a challenge just as the next one.

There's actually only one thing about dueling that is wrong. It probably shouldn't be called dueling. 9 times out of 10 duelers are bandits, and in a role playing game such as this one, this role is as valid as the next one.

+10 *HUGGLES PPF!!!* (I had to quote the whole post... it was perfect!)

I've also played this game forever... In all aspects. Out of them all, I really like dueling the most. I used to enjoy fort battles, but honestly, the whole HP madness doesn't make it any fun... No real strategy... You just need to outweigh the HP of the enemy... push your way to the flag... and sit on it. Woooo... fun.... yawn...

The idea that fort fighters/workers/non-duelers should not be dueled is ludicrous. This game started as a dueling game. Fort fighting wasn't brought in until years later. Now you are all wanting to do away with dueling? If you don't want to be dueled... You probably shouldn't have joined a game where their advertising states "Discover new lands and experience exciting adventures and duels!". They don't even mention fort fighting...


Zeta, this idea will help the non-duelers as well as the duelers.

Right now, non-duelers are complaining about zero mot duelers and how they ALL "prey on the weak"... No one is able to retaliate because their duel level is too low. Well, if the duel level no longer controlled who you could/couldn't duel, then anyone within that bully's regular level could go and squash him/her. Then you could actually have your alliance duelers team up to help protect the members of the alliance. The bullies will stop bullying if they get bullied back. They want to be able to duel... Not sit around crafting. (They'll craft just for you BBJ. lol) The likelihood of them continuing to bully your "weak" players when they get their hineys handed to them is small. Also, if they have a lot more targets, the chance they will still focus on specific people would be lower... Unless they have some vendetta against a player... not that it ever happens. lol

BTW... You are a zero mot dueler... and you are whining about zero mot duelers? Pot calling kettle black? Yes?


The issue with the XP duelers running out of targets was happening way before v2. We lost a lot of great players because they got bored of dueling just a handful of peeps and left... Some of those were even pre-Market... Man do I feel old! lol Using the regular level to control who you can/can't duel just makes sense... Level 100 duelers won't be able to duel anyone below level 80 (or whatever number is agreed on). Then both sides will have similar amounts of AP/SP instead of dueling someone half their size and half their AP/SP. The duel level can be for those who want to try to be number one in XP.

If dueling targets were based on my regular level and I didn't have to worry about losing targets... I would no longer be zero mot. I'd duel for XP and go for the top... and I wouldn't have to worry about being out of range of those who are bullying my friends and allies.

look at it this way Indians ran around scalping innocent settlers (allegedly ) most 0 motives are just dressed as cowboys .... its a disguise

LMAO!!! *HUGGLES VIC!!!*

 

[DeletedUser34767]

You probably shouldn't have joined a game where their advertising states "Discover new lands and experience exciting adventures and duels!".

Why wouldn't they. Most peoples view of a duel in a western setting is a gunfight at high noon between two willing participants. I don't think they would have signed up for the game if the advertising was ""Discover new lands and experience exciting adventures and get robbed and killed while feeding cows, planting fields, and tending sheep."

I do applaud Inno for looking at the 0 mot issue, but to me it is really only an issue about those few 0 mot duelers who spend a long time at really low levels bashing the new players under level 30 or so. I'm sure this is their aim and hope it helps with player turnover a bit. I think this is why they said they plan to split npc duel and pvp duel motivation and hopefully the little xp gain that will be required to get back down to 0 motivation will push the actual and duel level of these squatters up a bit and away from the newbies.

Being that my adventurer has been dueled a total of 31 times on Colorado in the more than 10 months he has been in his town, does not make me live his life worrying about being dueled. That is not even 1 duel a week.

Therefore, it would also be nice if they could address the problems with duel level for the higher level players so that everyone has a chance to enjoy the game.