Dueling Ethics ~ Please all give your opinions

Romelis

denisero dear, pls picture us how will you ensure that the rule will be obeyed ?

should someone code a demon checking ? would take a lt of resource.
should it be a person who checks ? then whats the pay and how you ensure the quality ?

or should it be let as it is.

looking on general, ethics or moral is purely undescribable in rules and moreover cant be controled, cus freedom is imperative for morale :) and the first time you imply control for morale the very moment it disapears and other things come in, like fear, resistance, boundaries and such

you can ask people to be moral only apealing to their counciousness, not request them to be moral, and moreover if they dont behave ethical (under any deffinition) the best you can do is "tap on the shoulder and asking not to do" if therewill be a penal system for "non moral behaveur" half the ppl will quit game asap.

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thes prolem upon the thread was created can be solved a little bit implying alliance feature, and programing, that allied town citizens could not duel amongst each other
 
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Denisero

I didn't start this thread dear Romelis. Maybe you can speak to your town member about it.

As I said, match fixing in boxing is illegal so I don't see why it can't be here. It is up to Innogames to decide what the rule will actually be and staff to determine if someone is breaking the rules if they are reported. I don't work for Innogames nor am I on staff so I can't answer your questions. I do know, and you know, that your town members do this on a regular basis. LiveHappy admitted it on these very boards that he does it.

Maybe you would like to explain to us Romelis why you think arranged duels with predetermined outcomes should be legal, if that is your stance. If it isn't then don't you think that the game should try to stop people from using these tactics whether it be through a rule or through coding or a combination of both? Duelers that participate in fixed matches to farm xp throw the entire dueling ranks out of balance and don't deserve to rise in the dueling ranks as someone that fights their fights on the up and up. But please, if you disagree I'm sure there are at least 2 of us who would love to hear what you have to say.
 
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Romelis

my stance (as you once again misinterpreted on purpose) is this:

- moral values are different for everyone and cant be put in some border
- what is not prohibided is legal
- if inno games decides to state a regulation on something they guarantee that by some programmed features or leting ppl to administrate that. im pretty sure if they will think that this "moral thing' doesnt take too much resources (time money) to imply they will do that. else they will dont bother. this is business afterall.

i remember some incident with granger pass who managed to farm money in huge amounts and become a fully maed city in very short period. they exploited a game bug which disbalanced the game. tho this issue we are discussing is IS NOT a game bug, but more of a social bug which hardly disbalances the game at all.
 

Denisero

Dearest Romelis your stance is that you don't want things to change because your town has benefited from a loophole in the system. It is okay. You can admit it. No one will fault you for being honest.

Multi-accounting could be considered an ethical question as well. I mean if one person wants to have 2 accounts on one world then why not? Well because it is against the rules and the mods do a good job of banning those that multi-account when it is reported.

I must have more faith in the staff and Innogames than you do that they don't want most of their customers to feel that there are cheaters in the game and that nothing is done about it. Ethics and morality are legalized all the time. There are morality clauses in contracts and ethics laws on the books in every state and federally. I don't see why a game can't regulate ethical playing.

If those that can only find fun in this game by staging fixed duels think that it won't be fun anymore if they can no longer do this then I don't know what to tell them. I don't see how anyone can take pleasure from a game as a dueler when their fights are fixed. Sort of defeats the purpose of speccing to be the best dueler you can be doesn't it. Sort of pathetic really if someone feels the need to cheat in an MMO either by multi-accounting or fixing duels.
 

Romelis

i suggest not posting labels in general.

and multi is not ethical question, since it disbalances the game, because it is one person activity to reach big results with smal expenditures. it also can be easily "hunted".

tho in the mean time as you say "fixed duels" take a lot of time and efforts especially when there is no chat. i may say almost as much as getting that xp in other ways.
im not defending anyone, just try thinking hypothetically. you can call them "cheaters" their actions "shameless" or the ways thay play "dishonourable" but you cant make a rule which could say whats moral and whats not.
 
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Denisero

If the staff can regulate behavior on the forums they can certainly regulate it in the game. I don't think it would be hard to catch people that power level. Once reported all that needs looked for is a player that has several duel reports where the opponent does minimal or no damage (as if they were not equipped) and gave high xp to the challenger. People that use this tactic do not use it just one time. They do it over and over again. That would be a pattern easily recognizable.

I didn't call them cheaters. Cragsterboy originally called them cheaters in these forums. I think that gives you a clue as to what the staff think of these tactics. I won't be making the rule, that will be up to Innogames and staff. Take it up with them.

I still feel Innogames would rather have their customer base assured that players can not take advantage of a loophole in the rules rather than let behavior that is frowned upon by their customer base and game staff go unfettered.

I also disagree that fixed dueling doesn't cause an imbalance in the game. Players that participate level up faster than players that do not use this method of gaining xp. This allows them to buy better weapons when they level up when they should not be at that level in the first place. This causes them to rise in the dueling ranks and push other players who work hard further down the list.

Please don't put fixed duels in parenthesis like it is a myth. We both know they happen.
 
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Hellstromm

Denisero has a valid argument. It is an exploit of the intent behind this game's mechanics. If you have fixed duels, you gain xp (and a good chunk of it too). If 30 players participate in this action together, they can easily obtain 1000+ xp an hour. That is clearly not in the spirit of this game, nor should it be construed as acceptable behavior. And, in rebuttal to Romelis' claims, it is imbalancing.

Duels do not take away xp, they only provide xp, so people dueling each other in fixed sessions are exploiting a design flaw in the game. Exploitation of a design flaw is just as inappropriate as exploiting a programming flaw.
 

Romelis

pls dont just tell me about "doing it" try it for your self. you find it almost impossible
"to fix a duel with many opponents".

one of things which could help fixing it would be making "alliance feature" upon which you could not attack alliance member. for those who think that towns wount join in alliances because "easy xp" has more value, lets give a little bonus to alliance feat.
ex. alliance rankings, alliance buildings (capital which gives some administrative bonus, railway and other if necessary) and others.
 

DeletedUser8950

Match fixing are for wimps who can't win if they don't do it.
Also, what annoys me is countless complaints from adeveturers I duel "hey i dont duel"
Well, how am I meant to know if it isn't on their page? Can I read minds or something now.:huh:
 
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Hellstromm

Coordinating can easily be performed by utilizing a chatroom. With all due respect Romelis, you're assuming we're idiots and can't figure out the obvious.

As to your scripting recommendation, an alliance feature can be bypassed merely by people opting not to list themselves as allies. There are some scripting changes that would remove much of the encouragement in fixed dueling, but an alliance feature is not one of them. I suspect you know this, which is why you're encouraging just such a feature.

One thing I must note: Romelis, you've indicated how difficult it is to coordinate, which means you've tried (and likely succeeded via trial and error).
 

Romelis

no. analysing is one those thing that comes in my studies and im good at it.

if youre good in math you also can solve this by equation.
i would suggest solving this problem taking actions in social sphere, than in programing.
if you can install other features, that they would make duel fixing unattractive a green light for you the, because erecting a "system" you also must develop a way to mange it, to solve special cases, to monitor it, to fix the bugs and etc. also think about server resources.

also who guarantees, that such a guy who duel fixed up to the top, wount quite game because of monotony ? you wount believe me, how temporary "top dueler" position is. im playing since october, and already 3-4 UBER duelers quite the game, another (which im not allowed to talk about) has other problems (which of im not allowed refer to)....
 
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Strange

Well-Known Member
I think we're all agreed that Rome is being ridiculous and nonsensical and we can just ignore him.

There is no feasible game change (programming) that can prevent intentional farming, but consequences for participating in it AFTER THE FACT can be implemented. As my original post in this topic suggested and Denise's did as well, enforcing the outlawing of farming would pretty much be a moderation issue - I.E., people reporting suspected farmers, administration then checking the reported player's dueling logs, then determining if suspicious/inappropriate action is taking place.

There is nothing I can think of that can PREVENT farming, and two people could successfully do it undetected forever, but with an official rule banning farming it would decrease the amount of farming going on dramatically, AND THAT IS WHAT WE WANT, WHAT IS JUST, AND WHAT SHOULD BE DONE.. because farming should not be allowed, PERIOD.

It does imbalance the game, as Denise explained (really stupid that it had to be explained though, Jesus), so it does detract from the game, and it is unfair to the general population of the game.

Rom: It is obvious you are just arguing this rule because you yourself participate in the activity, or are just really incredribly dense to not see how it imbalances the game and also is unfair to everyone else - so either way, please quit posting in here because this is a serious issue that needs to be rectified and you are not helping the situation.
 

Hellstromm

One scripting approach would be depreciating xp for attacking the same person. It is already in the game, but it regenerates and is insufficient. It should be changed so that if you duel the same person 5 times, that's it. No more xp and no more counting of duels. You're just doing it now to decrease their hps and/or steal cash, which still works if you're acting in defense of your town, but doesn't work if you're trying to level-up or increase your duel rank.
 

Denisero

Well while I agree that would do the trick that would also penalize people that aren't power leveling. When you get to a certain dueling rank there are not many worthy opponents or opponents that give good xp left. You would be penalizing players with valid high dueling ranks by forcing them to hit lower valued targets because they hit their quota on hitting players at their level. That is sort of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 
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kroesus

I would say Romelis is at best an amoral person. An easy way to determine its ethical and moral standing is the "smell" test". In this instance a normal person of good conscious would gag at the scent of this activity. He has as much as admitted to participating, so of course he attempts to justify his actions as innocuous or not harmful. This alone seems to say 1 he still has a conscious, 2 he knows it is wrong, 3 he is trying to sooth his own or our sense of propriety. Because you can perform or engage in an activity never legitimizes it and is always a fools argument to try to make a point.
 

kroesus

One scripting approach would be depreciating xp for attacking the same person. It is already in the game, but it regenerates and is insufficient. It should be changed so that if you duel the same person 5 times, that's it. No more xp and no more counting of duels. You're just doing it now to decrease their hps and/or steal cash, which still works if you're acting in defense of your town, but doesn't work if you're trying to level-up or increase your duel rank.
I would not like your approach. I get attacked and attack a lot of the same people many times. Proximity and amount of xp count heavily for targeting and your approach changes both criteria.
 

Romelis

as i stated before, ther emay be difficulties in implementing prohibitions you all are shouting about. there must be a reason why inno didnt install that. i will give you a hint.
for mods to read the logs, they must be appropriately gathered. not only dueling fact with dmg, but gear equipted, dueling time and other data. this has log and store EVERY duel in every world. there are 9 worlds in global. and there are about 40+ worlds in other countries. its huge amount of server space and coding time.

im not stating its right to fix duels, im just saying its almost imposible to manage and monitor "duel fixing problem".

i havent violated any ingame rules so your moral implications of me being a cheater are wrong. i can take and defend what ever position i want.

i know games who almost solved such cheating/farming problem. its hattrick.org its biggest online football manager wh ohas 980k ACTIVE players community, has great number of mods gms and other staff, and is running for more than 10 years already. when the west will have such stats im pretty sure the problems you whine about will be solved.
 

TitusMaximus

there is no alliance feature isntalled in this game, so technically there are no allied towns
so this "allied towns should not fight rule" doesnt exist
I agree. But in our Alliance and Coaltition we do not attack one another, doesnt mean we cant.

It does not exist if we talk in terms of de jure.
However by de facto, it does exist.
Ergo does not exist in the game mechanics which of course is the whole point. "Unofficial" alliance rules are not forceable in-game.

Ethics is a player/town choice. What more needs be said?
If I join a town I should follow the rules of the town.
If this includes following strict guidelines for duelling.So I should agree to it.

agreed more than 100%
ethics can not be requested, it can be stimulated.
Ethics cannot be enforced, and can be encouraged.

I think that point where any fight becomes unethical is when there is collusion. No fight should be fought with the winner already predetermined with both individuals aware of how the fight shall end. That would be called fixing a fight in the boxing world and is illegal. So why should not the same apply here?
This is a game. And we dont have ruthless boxing agents with a team of highly paid lawyers or courts to put people in jail.

No, I'm asking for people that duel each other with the outcome already agreed upon in order for them to farm xp to be stopped. That is not a programming change. That is a rule change.
Up to individuals.Up to the game operators.

Hmm, how is it a rule change? How is such a rule enforced?
You cant enforce this rule. Simple.

denisero dear, pls picture us how will you ensure that the rule will be obeyed ?

should someone code a demon checking ? would take a lt of resource.
should it be a person who checks ? then whats the pay and how you ensure the quality ?

or should it be let as it is.

looking on general, ethics or moral is purely undescribable in rules and moreover cant be controled, cus freedom is imperative for morale :) and the first time you imply control for morale the very moment it disapears and other things come in, like fear, resistance, boundaries and such

you can ask people to be moral only apealing to their counciousness, not request them to be moral, and moreover if they dont behave ethical (under any deffinition) the best you can do is "tap on the shoulder and asking not to do" if therewill be a penal system for "non moral behaveur" half the ppl will quit game asap.

edit:
thes prolem upon the thread was created can be solved a little bit implying alliance feature, and programing, that allied town citizens could not duel amongst each other
I agree.

I didn't start this thread dear Romelis. Maybe you can speak to your town member about it.

As I said, match fixing in boxing is illegal so I don't see why it can't be here. It is up to Innogames to decide what the rule will actually be and staff to determine if someone is breaking the rules if they are reported. I don't work for Innogames nor am I on staff so I can't answer your questions. I do know, and you know, that your town members do this on a regular basis. LiveHappy admitted it on these very boards that he does it.

Maybe you would like to explain to us Romelis why you think arranged duels with predetermined outcomes should be legal, if that is your stance. If it isn't then don't you think that the game should try to stop people from using these tactics whether it be through a rule or through coding or a combination of both? Duelers that participate in fixed matches to farm xp throw the entire dueling ranks out of balance and don't deserve to rise in the dueling ranks as someone that fights their fights on the up and up. But please, if you disagree I'm sure there are at least 2 of us who would love to hear what you have to say.
Im just here to play.

my stance (as you once again misinterpreted on purpose) is this:

- moral values are different for everyone and cant be put in some border
- what is not prohibided is legal
- if inno games decides to state a regulation on something they guarantee that by some programmed features or leting ppl to administrate that. im pretty sure if they will think that this "moral thing' doesnt take too much resources (time money) to imply they will do that. else they will dont bother. this is business afterall.

i remember some incident with granger pass who managed to farm money in huge amounts and become a fully maed city in very short period. they exploited a game bug which disbalanced the game. tho this issue we are discussing is IS NOT a game bug, but more of a social bug which hardly disbalances the game at all.
Upto individuals freedom of choice.

Dearest Romelis your stance is that you don't want things to change because your town has benefited from a loophole in the system. It is okay. You can admit it. No one will fault you for being honest.

Multi-accounting could be considered an ethical question as well. I mean if one person wants to have 2 accounts on one world then why not? Well because it is against the rules and the mods do a good job of banning those that multi-account when it is reported.

I must have more faith in the staff and Innogames than you do that they don't want most of their customers to feel that there are cheaters in the game and that nothing is done about it. Ethics and morality are legalized all the time. There are morality clauses in contracts and ethics laws on the books in every state and federally. I don't see why a game can't regulate ethical playing.

If those that can only find fun in this game by staging fixed duels think that it won't be fun anymore if they can no longer do this then I don't know what to tell them. I don't see how anyone can take pleasure from a game as a dueler when their fights are fixed. Sort of defeats the purpose of speccing to be the best dueler you can be doesn't it. Sort of pathetic really if someone feels the need to cheat in an MMO either by multi-accounting or fixing duels.
Welcome to human nature, to be better than your peers at whatever the cost.

i suggest not posting labels in general.

and multi is not ethical question, since it disbalances the game, because it is one person activity to reach big results with smal expenditures. it also can be easily "hunted".

tho in the mean time as you say "fixed duels" take a lot of time and efforts especially when there is no chat. i may say almost as much as getting that xp in other ways.
im not defending anyone, just try thinking hypothetically. you can call them "cheaters" their actions "shameless" or the ways thay play "dishonourable" but you cant make a rule which could say whats moral and whats not.
This is the essence you cannot control peoples choices.
MMO games are non-linear.

If the staff can regulate behavior on the forums they can certainly regulate it in the game. I don't think it would be hard to catch people that power level. Once reported all that needs looked for is a player that has several duel reports where the opponent does minimal or no damage (as if they were not equipped) and gave high xp to the challenger. People that use this tactic do not use it just one time. They do it over and over again. That would be a pattern easily recognizable.

I didn't call them cheaters. Cragsterboy originally called them cheaters in these forums. I think that gives you a clue as to what the staff think of these tactics. I won't be making the rule, that will be up to Innogames and staff. Take it up with them.

I still feel Innogames would rather have their customer base assured that players can not take advantage of a loophole in the rules rather than let behavior that is frowned upon by their customer base and game staff go unfettered.

I also disagree that fixed dueling doesn't cause an imbalance in the game. Players that participate level up faster than players that do not use this method of gaining xp. This allows them to buy better weapons when they level up when they should not be at that level in the first place. This causes them to rise in the dueling ranks and push other players who work hard further down the list.

Please don't put fixed duels in parenthesis like it is a myth. We both know they happen.
Some of us seem to have more time than others to police virtual accounts on online webgames.And it is easier to police forums than game accounts.

There is no such thing as a fair fight
Thankyou! Finally.

Denisero has a valid argument. It is an exploit of the intent behind this game's mechanics. If you have fixed duels, you gain xp (and a good chunk of it too). If 30 players participate in this action together, they can easily obtain 1000+ xp an hour. That is clearly not in the spirit of this game, nor should it be construed as acceptable behavior. And, in rebuttal to Romelis' claims, it is imbalancing.

Duels do not take away xp, they only provide xp, so people dueling each other in fixed sessions are exploiting a design flaw in the game. Exploitation of a design flaw is just as inappropriate as exploiting a programming flaw.
When have you known anyone not to exploit something or someone?
I visit my tax office regularly making sure I exploit every loophole I can to save on my tax rebates.

Also, what annoys me is countless complaints from adeveturers I duel "hey i dont duel"
Well, how am I meant to know if it isn't on their page? Can I read minds or something now.:huh:
So true!

As to your scripting recommendation, an alliance feature can be bypassed merely by people opting not to list themselves as allies.
You mean exploiting the game right?

I think we're all agreed that Rome is being ridiculous and nonsensical and we can just ignore him.

There is no feasible game change (programming) that can prevent intentional farming, but consequences for participating in it AFTER THE FACT can be implemented. As my original post in this topic suggested and Denise's did as well, enforcing the outlawing of farming would pretty much be a moderation issue - I.E., people reporting suspected farmers, administration then checking the reported player's dueling logs, then determining if suspicious/inappropriate action is taking place.

There is nothing I can think of that can PREVENT farming, and two people could successfully do it undetected forever, but with an official rule banning farming it would decrease the amount of farming going on dramatically, AND THAT IS WHAT WE WANT, WHAT IS JUST, AND WHAT SHOULD BE DONE.. because farming should not be allowed, PERIOD.

It does imbalance the game, as Denise explained (really stupid that it had to be explained though, Jesus), so it does detract from the game, and it is unfair to the general population of the game.

Rom: It is obvious you are just arguing this rule because you yourself participate in the activity, or are just really incredribly dense to not see how it imbalances the game and also is unfair to everyone else - so either way, please quit posting in here because this is a serious issue that needs to be rectified and you are not helping the situation.
Stop shouting your making yourself look arrogant and needy.

And just because someone doesnt agree with you, you write, pretend to ignore him and pretend he doesnt exist??? Are you another George Bush impersonator?

I would say Romelis is at best an amoral person. An easy way to determine its ethical and moral standing is the "smell" test". In this instance a normal person of good conscious would gag at the scent of this activity.".... "3 he is trying to sooth his own or our sense of propriety. Because you can perform or engage in an activity never legitimizes it and is always a fools argument to try to make a point.
What are you babbling on about, smell test? Wake up.
Sooth his own consience you mean? Ask him if he can sleep well on a night that should answer it.
Are you getting mixep up with civil liberties? ie making a point or advancing your argument is part of the due process?

Sorry for any typo's and spelling errors etc :D
 

Violette LeDrunc

Everyone... Please stick to discussing the issues raised in this thread and refrain commenting on anyone's behaviour in game. Any further personal references will be infracted.
 
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