Damage & Class Balance (of FFs)

Discussion in 'Saloon' started by RaiderTr, Feb 11, 2019.

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  1. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Member

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    Idk if this is the right place for this but please do let me know if it isn't.


    So I've been playing the game after a long time and noticed that it favors the Damage (and Workers) too much.
    (No wonder why most players of the newest server are Duelers and Workers!)

    I don't know much of the past but, at the moment, Duelers & Workers can easily get quite high rewards from Fort battles.
    Just put all SP into Leadership, and know where to stand, easy peasy.

    I mean a level 70 Dueler (with Amish set) can get about double Bonds & Xp rewards of a level 120 tank Soldier (with upgraded Zapata set) -given same circumstances.
    This must be a joke, right?! But no, this is just one example.

    And of course damager Workers have more damage potential (because of insane Attack boost!) but they don't hit Critics (thank God!) so they are about the same with Duelers.


    Well, that was damage. There is also Tanking.

    With the Worker class changes, they are beasts on Tanking as well.
    The amount of extra Dodges (& Damages!) they have over Soldiers is insane. Yes, they have less Hp but it doesn't matter if you dodge that much -and get less damage as well.

    As a summary; they hit more, dodge more and also resist more than Soldiers & Adventurers, therefore, more rewards -easy peasy.


    Then how to balance FFs and their Rewards?
    Well, I got some ideas.

    1- Worker class bonuses can be lowered to %15 (%30 with Premium)
    2- HP lost can have an effect -so that Sacrifice is Rewarded a bit!
    3- In the damage Formula, Leadership coefficient -which also Boosts all other Damage bonuses- can be lowered slightly
    4- Sector damage bonuses of Sets can be Lowered slightly
    5- The negative effect of HP increase on both Resistances can be lowered very slightly
    or; Resistance could be made Percentage based. (Decrease the damage by %X )

    I don't know which of them would be the best/enough but something needs to be done.

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2019 at 9:46 AM
  2. Bucksnort Hawkins

    Bucksnort Hawkins Member

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    I think you are 100% correct. Also there was a video not too long ago (late summer?) from Inno saying that the Adventurer and Soldier classes were being revised. I'd like to know if that is still happening, what the revisions are that are being considered, and when it is supposed to be implemented.

    If anything the "ghosting" feature needs a formula defined and/or there needs to be a direct way to supplement ghosting with gear. I mean to say a direct stated bonus like "+20% to Ghosting" or some such thing. I really hate to think that ghosting is a straight up percentile chance per shot that's not based in a formula like attack or dodge.
     
  3. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Member

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    Ah I wasn't aware of such video, I hope they still are at it.

    Need to be careful with Ghosting thou.
    In my opinion it's still quite effective but need a better set for the purpose first.
     
  4. Harsha..

    Harsha.. Well-Known Member

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    I do agree that there is a (very) serious problem when it comes to damage and I've been meaning to write about it as well. We've seen them add more and more powerful guns and damage boosts, while most other variables have stayed the same, the result is people last even less on a tower and FFs are in general shorter. More people are motivated to go by a damage build rather than a HP build just in order to get more rewards.

    But, I must point out, that adventurers, by a mile are way more important than any worker or dueler. As a battle general, I would take a pure HP premium advent over a prem worker anyday. Premium advents can hold WT even longer than a worker just due to their ghosting ability. The core issue is that adventurers don't get rewarded for it. Giving bond rewards for successful ghosts and the most ghosts would be a good first step.

    Decreasing or nerfing the worker bonus is a bad idea for a variety of resons. You have people who picked that character class just because of the bonus. They've invested years and money building their character and suddenly taking it away or reducing it wouldn't be fair. Also, even for workers' crazy stats, they still get hit - a worker with 8000 HP can lose 1/4 of that HP from a single crit. Put a worker in front of a group of good duelers and he'll be dead pretty quickly.

    So, in my view, best way forward would be to enhance soldier and advent classes' bonuses in some way, and perhaps making buffs like modern armor and lanterns increase HP rather than just replenishing it.
     
  5. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Member

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    Yep, "Sector Damage" bonus things are ridiculous.
    While Resistance bonuses are quite meh compared to them, and much harder to increase -as HP lowers 'em + you need 2 different skills.

    I don't know when were the Worker class changes done but I don't think it was that (years!) long ago.

    And just compare the Atk/Def values of them with other classes (+ More Resist). I mean they both are almost 1.5x of Soldiers even!
    No matter if they are Leadership build or Tank.

    Sure it's still RNG but they dodge (and hit) much more times (just check the Idaho FF rankings) and definitely survive longer than Soldiers. ..with the current DotD sets that favors them the most..
    But yea Adventurers might survive longer depending if they Ghost or not.

    Well, Hp increase isn't a solution as it increases the damage you take from all shoots..
    But yea some changes on Buffs -in a way to favor Advents & Soldiers- would be good indeed.

    Addition to what I said on original post;
    I believe Resistance could be made Percentage based. (Decrease the damage by %X )
    Then it's effect won't be becoming ridiculously low as the Levels of players go Higher. But also Low Level hits won't be very close to Zero and Soldiers & Adventurers won't hit very low either.
     
  6. Harsha..

    Harsha.. Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily. My personal experience says otherwise. In a world, I'm a worker with every possible advantage, and from various battle reports, it's clear soldiers are still much better when it comes to dodging and more importantly, soldiers are more consistent

    That is because, battle values are inherently random and have an element of luck in them. Having a defense of 220+ doesnt absolutely guarantee you'll survive longer. And, as mentioned before, a single shot can take away 1/4 of your HP. I'm now getting reports where I can take only 10 hits before running out of HP, because everyone in general is hitting harder. Soldiers, have a lower ratio of hits taken to dodged shots, but in general, the total shots (hits + dodges) they absorb is much higher than any worker

    Don't forget the cardinal rule of FFing. The more HP you have, the longer you survive. We can't take away the new weapons, and it may not be easy to change the damage formula. So, a simple road to having longer battles and better defenses would be to increase the HP.

    Making resistance percentage based is not a bad idea and could be worth a test. I do wish they would actually make use of the beta server and test out various things about improving battles there.
     
  7. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Member

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    You are more experienced than me so I trust to your judgement, but my observations are different.
    Maybe that's because Idaho is still somewhat young.

    That being said,
    Yes and no.
    Sure, everything is based on % chance so we can't say "absolutely" but it is still more chance.
    Another yes and no situation.
    Problem is, you get more damage if you have higher Hp -especially from Critics as they are based on the %10 of your Max Hp.

    But yea, in the long run, when the HP difference of Soldiers and others become higher and higher, it becomes slightly better.
    I completely agree to this one.
     
  8. Harsha..

    Harsha.. Well-Known Member

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    I certainly would agree that the situation in Idaho can't be quantitatively compared with things in the older worlds. There simply are too many variables involved; premium players can level up their worker characters much more quickly, have the resources to get upgraded gear (free players having less time to get bonds to spend on Xmas). In some cases, it can be a situation of an over-powered character taking shots from lower-level and under-equipped players. In the older worlds, things are on a more even keel. Just to better illustrate it, here are some battle reports sorted by maximum dodges, taken at random from colorado.

    https://prnt.sc/mp1qv1
    http://prntscr.com/mp1t5m
    http://prntscr.com/mp1u0i (2 workers in the top 7)

    But, setting aside the technicalities of the discussion, I'm honestly not sure if any real changes are coming anytime soon. I've seen some of the first battles, and today, many of the elements then are precisely the same. Innogames hasn't changed anything that much in a decade of game development, while many other games have undergone radical changes
     
  9. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Member

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    So proportionally workers dodged more, but quantitatively soldiers, because they had more Hp (Idaho soldiers mostly use Zapata thou)
    Of course we don't know who was on a tower (or not) , or what the distances were between shooters and receivers etc. etc. but I think you have a point and we should be a bit more patient..

    Well idk if we really need radical changes thou -unless you call my suggestions as one.


    Btw;
    https://www.westforts.com/en22/battles