Damage & Class Balance (of FFs)

Discussion in 'Saloon' started by RaiderTr, Feb 11, 2019.

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  1. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Well-Known Member

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    So I've been playing the game after a long time and noticed that it favors the Damage (and Workers) too much.
    (No wonder why most players of the newest server are Duelers and Workers!)

    I don't know much of the past but, at the moment, Duelers & Workers can easily get quite high rewards from Fort battles.
    Just put all SP into Leadership, and know where to stand, easy peasy.

    I mean a level 70 Dueler (with Amish set) can get about double Bonds & Xp rewards of a level 120 tank Soldier (with upgraded Zapata set) -given same circumstances.
    This must be a joke, right?! But no, this is just one example.

    And of course damager Workers have more damage potential (because of insane Attack boost!) but they don't hit Critics (thank God!) so they are about the same with Duelers.


    Well, that was damage. There is also Tanking.

    With the Worker class changes, they are beasts on Tanking as well.
    The amount of extra Dodges (& Damages!) they have over Soldiers is insane. Yes, they have less Hp but it doesn't matter if you dodge that much -and get less damage as well.

    As a summary; they hit more, dodge more and also resist more than Soldiers & Adventurers, therefore, more rewards -easy peasy.


    Then how to balance FFs and their Rewards?
    Well, I got some ideas.

    1- Worker class bonuses can be lowered to %15 (%30 with Premium)
    2- HP lost can have an effect -so that Sacrifice is Rewarded a bit!
    3- In the damage Formula, Leadership coefficient -which also Boosts all other Damage bonuses- can be lowered slightly
    4- Sector damage bonuses of Sets can be Lowered slightly -or be Percentage based.
    5- The negative effect of HP increase on both Resistances can be lowered very slightly
    or; Resistance could be made Percentage based. (Decrease the damage by %X )

    I don't know which of them would be the best/enough but something needs to be done.

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  2. Bucksnort Hawkins

    Bucksnort Hawkins Well-Known Member

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    I think you are 100% correct. Also there was a video not too long ago (late summer?) from Inno saying that the Adventurer and Soldier classes were being revised. I'd like to know if that is still happening, what the revisions are that are being considered, and when it is supposed to be implemented.

    If anything the "ghosting" feature needs a formula defined and/or there needs to be a direct way to supplement ghosting with gear. I mean to say a direct stated bonus like "+20% to Ghosting" or some such thing. I really hate to think that ghosting is a straight up percentile chance per shot that's not based in a formula like attack or dodge.
     
  3. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Well-Known Member

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    Ah I wasn't aware of such video, I hope they still are at it.

    Need to be careful with Ghosting thou.
    In my opinion it's still quite effective but need a better set for the purpose first.
     
  4. Harsha..

    Harsha.. Well-Known Member

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    I do agree that there is a (very) serious problem when it comes to damage and I've been meaning to write about it as well. We've seen them add more and more powerful guns and damage boosts, while most other variables have stayed the same, the result is people last even less on a tower and FFs are in general shorter. More people are motivated to go by a damage build rather than a HP build just in order to get more rewards.

    But, I must point out, that adventurers, by a mile are way more important than any worker or dueler. As a battle general, I would take a pure HP premium advent over a prem worker anyday. Premium advents can hold WT even longer than a worker just due to their ghosting ability. The core issue is that adventurers don't get rewarded for it. Giving bond rewards for successful ghosts and the most ghosts would be a good first step.

    Decreasing or nerfing the worker bonus is a bad idea for a variety of resons. You have people who picked that character class just because of the bonus. They've invested years and money building their character and suddenly taking it away or reducing it wouldn't be fair. Also, even for workers' crazy stats, they still get hit - a worker with 8000 HP can lose 1/4 of that HP from a single crit. Put a worker in front of a group of good duelers and he'll be dead pretty quickly.

    So, in my view, best way forward would be to enhance soldier and advent classes' bonuses in some way, and perhaps making buffs like modern armor and lanterns increase HP rather than just replenishing it.
     
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  5. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Well-Known Member

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    Yep, "Sector Damage" bonus things are ridiculous.
    While Resistance bonuses are quite meh compared to them, and much harder to increase -as HP lowers 'em + you need 2 different skills.

    I don't know when were the Worker class changes done but I don't think it was that (years!) long ago.

    And just compare the Atk/Def values of them with other classes (+ More Resist). I mean they both are almost 1.5x of Soldiers even!
    No matter if they are Leadership build or Tank.

    Sure it's still RNG but they dodge (and hit) much more times (just check the Idaho FF rankings) and definitely survive longer than Soldiers. ..with the current DotD sets that favors them the most..
    But yea Adventurers might survive longer depending if they Ghost or not.

    Well, Hp increase isn't a solution as it increases the damage you take from all shoots..
    But yea some changes on Buffs -in a way to favor Advents & Soldiers- would be good indeed.

    Addition to what I said on original post;
    I believe Resistance could be made Percentage based. (Decrease the damage by %X )
    Then it's effect won't be becoming ridiculously low as the Levels of players go Higher. But also Low Level hits won't be very close to Zero and Soldiers & Adventurers won't hit very low either.
     
  6. Harsha..

    Harsha.. Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily. My personal experience says otherwise. In a world, I'm a worker with every possible advantage, and from various battle reports, it's clear soldiers are still much better when it comes to dodging and more importantly, soldiers are more consistent

    That is because, battle values are inherently random and have an element of luck in them. Having a defense of 220+ doesnt absolutely guarantee you'll survive longer. And, as mentioned before, a single shot can take away 1/4 of your HP. I'm now getting reports where I can take only 10 hits before running out of HP, because everyone in general is hitting harder. Soldiers, have a lower ratio of hits taken to dodged shots, but in general, the total shots (hits + dodges) they absorb is much higher than any worker

    Don't forget the cardinal rule of FFing. The more HP you have, the longer you survive. We can't take away the new weapons, and it may not be easy to change the damage formula. So, a simple road to having longer battles and better defenses would be to increase the HP.

    Making resistance percentage based is not a bad idea and could be worth a test. I do wish they would actually make use of the beta server and test out various things about improving battles there.
     
  7. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Well-Known Member

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    You are more experienced than me so I trust to your judgement, but my observations are different.
    Maybe that's because Idaho is still somewhat young.

    That being said,
    Yes and no.
    Sure, everything is based on % chance so we can't say "absolutely" but it is still more chance.
    Another yes and no situation.
    Problem is, you get more damage if you have higher Hp -especially from Critics as they are based on the %10 of your Max Hp.

    But yea, in the long run, when the HP difference of Soldiers and others become higher and higher, it becomes slightly better.
    I completely agree to this one.
     
  8. Harsha..

    Harsha.. Well-Known Member

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    I certainly would agree that the situation in Idaho can't be quantitatively compared with things in the older worlds. There simply are too many variables involved; premium players can level up their worker characters much more quickly, have the resources to get upgraded gear (free players having less time to get bonds to spend on Xmas). In some cases, it can be a situation of an over-powered character taking shots from lower-level and under-equipped players. In the older worlds, things are on a more even keel. Just to better illustrate it, here are some battle reports sorted by maximum dodges, taken at random from colorado.

    https://prnt.sc/mp1qv1
    http://prntscr.com/mp1t5m
    http://prntscr.com/mp1u0i (2 workers in the top 7)

    But, setting aside the technicalities of the discussion, I'm honestly not sure if any real changes are coming anytime soon. I've seen some of the first battles, and today, many of the elements then are precisely the same. Innogames hasn't changed anything that much in a decade of game development, while many other games have undergone radical changes
     
  9. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Well-Known Member

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    So proportionally workers dodged more, but quantitatively soldiers, because they had more Hp (Idaho soldiers mostly use Zapata thou)
    Of course we don't know who was on a tower (or not) , or what the distances were between shooters and receivers etc. etc. but I think you have a point and we should be a bit more patient..

    Well idk if we really need radical changes thou -unless you call my suggestions as one.


    Btw;
    https://www.westforts.com/en22/battles
     
  10. Felicity Crumpet

    Felicity Crumpet Well-Known Member

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    Change most needed is to adventurer class to help them ghost more. And to the defence attack balance to help defence a bit more.
     
  11. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Well-Known Member

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    I think Adventurers ghost enough with Premium.
    Main issue is the ridiculous damage bonuses of sets like Murrieta and resist being almost useless at High levels.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  12. P4F Mastermind

    P4F Mastermind Member

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    I'm not the most experienced leader around, but I've had my share of battles since I first started this game around 2010. I will break down my reply to parts, so that it properly addresses all of the required points.

    First of all, let's talk about the past, when worker did not have the class bonuses that it has now. I remember the first year of TR server Bosphorus. I was active for a year there, and I must say, 75% of the top 200 players were soldiers. Why? Because a simple 20/40% dodge on the Worker class had no meaning compared to the HP bonus of Soldier. No one hit this hard back then, so pure HP was the way to go. But now, things have changed, and every class and build has an advantage and disadvantage. And to be honest, with all the sets that we have in the game now, I do not believe that any single class is way too strong than any other right now. They all have their advantages and their disadvantages.

    Before I start, I should say that Dueler is the class I have played the longest, so that is the one I have the most knowledge on.

    Soldier: Thanks to the extremely high HP, you can equip a ^2 tank set that gives high SetTraps/Hiding/Leadership, and sit on a structure, surviving for a year before you fall. The crits cripple you, but still, you will hold that point longer than most classes because let's be honest, after you pass a certain "Defense" point, only factor that remains is luck. 200 or 260 defense doesn't really make a big difference.

    Worker: When the server becomes old enough to have two equally strong sides with high level majority on both sides, if you go damage, you will always have a good DPS, but will never be on the top 2-3. If you go tank, you will be very effective on holding points that are not tower corners, because no other class can't tank the remaining points as well as you do. You will have a good "Defense" stat just as if you were on a tower. On a tower, just like everyone above said, yes you can dodge a lot, but the 1 crit taking away 1/4 of your HP factor is real. The real strength of Worker is taking points while on grass, or taking points on walls etc, because that is where they are significantly better than any other tank class.

    Advent: Not even going to explain. They are vital for any proper fort battle, you can't have too many of them no matter how many of them you have. Still, they require some kind of work on them, because all of their usefulness depends on paying for Character Bonus premium and having a bit of luck.

    Dueler: Main damage source of all servers older than a year. Still, just like Adventurer, relies too much on luck. I believe this formula would be more satisfying:

    Instead of having 10/20% chance of dealing 10% Max HP of the target, dealing 1/2% of Max HP of the target with every hit. This would make their damage more consistent, while statistically not giving any advantage or disadvantages to the class. There will be no 3 turns in a row lucky crits that change the course of battles, but overall, they will deal the same amount of damage. The team won't be able to get carried by 2 premium duelers that can obliterate any tank that sits in front of them, but instead will need to have a proper squad of damagers that can sit and aim at the enemy until the kill is achieved. Also, this will solve the adventurer ghosting issue, because you will no longer be able to get 3 duelers in front of an advent and kill it in 2 turns even if ghosting happens.
     
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  13. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Well-Known Member

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    Hey Mastermind, thanks for sharing ur experiences, and it was a good post with a lot of good points!

    Well unfortunately (like many other browser games) The-West is purely based on RNG..
    So you need to balance stuff around it, but I don't think it is that balanced right now. Damage is favored a bit too much, and, "sacrifice" or in other words; "taking one for the team" isn't rewarded -resulting in many Damager Builds.

    Maybe Worker class shouldn't be changed but I stand by my other thoughts/suggestions still.
    Though, that doesn't mean I'm not open to other suggestions.

    So can you explain the 1/2% part? (I hope it's not %50 Hp :D)


    (Oh btw you said you played on Tr server, are you Turkish?)
     
  14. Al35ul

    Al35ul The West Team

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    I second FC's statement. I've been forting as an adventurer for a while now and I have tried a variety of builds - even with premium, I barely ghost. So yeah, adventurers would be the ones in need of change if one would happen.

    Also, as FC already said, attack in fort = win (90% of the time)
     
  15. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Well-Known Member

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    I still believe that the main issues are; damage being quite high with the sets like Murrieta and resist being almost useless at High levels.

    And well, I've seen many of them ghost often (with Premium) but that doesn't matter much if they get Critted with insane damages before they do.

    Agree with Defenses becoming a bit too hard thou -thanks to Set bonuses becoming higher and higher.. + Damages, again :D
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  16. P4F Mastermind

    P4F Mastermind Member

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    Here's my idea, explained with detail. I believe that this solves some issues for more than a single class.

    Part-1: About FF Class Balance Regarding Duelers and Advents

    Right now, duelers deal 10% Max HP damage, and the chance of doing this is 10%/20% depending on their premium. Which means that statistically, they either deal 10% Max HP once in every 10 turns, or in every 5 turns if they are premium. Now here's the catch: 10% HP in 10/5 turns is mathematically equal to 1%/2% HP each turn, depending on the premium. So if you take every single fort battle ever played and every single crit ever landed, and average it, the previous sentence is the result we should get (give or take 0.1%).

    Also, you guys are mentioning that the ghosting of Adventurer class is becoming more and more useless every day, because what is the point of ghosting if the first three shots you take each deal 2200-2400 damage, right? Okay, hear me out. Statistically, a dueler dealing 10% HP once in 10 or 5 turns is equal to a dueler dealing 1%/2% max HP damage every turn instead of this. Their average damage output remains the same. But, this benefits both the dueler and the adventurer.

    Benefit to the dueler: I've had so many battles where I landed 35 hits with a premium on, and NONE of them were crits. Naturally, this was demoralizing because my class gave me literally ZERO advantages for the course of the whole battle, while a soldier or a worker in that battle got a great use of his/her class bonus. So if this solution I am proposing was implemented, the dueler I was playing would have dealt 70% Max HP damage in total instead of 0%, which is the statistically estimated amount from a dueler with a premium and 35 landed hits.

    Benefit to adventurer: I haven't played many battles with an adventurer, but I have lead enough battles to know that it absolutely sucks to send a level 130 ^2 Adams pure HP adventurer tank to take the gate, and see that he/she died the same turn he/she went there because enemy landed 7 crits in a row. Well, that won't happen with this. Or, another example, all of you must have seen an adventurer lose half of his/her HP the same turn he/she moves to block the position, even though he/she ghosted, just because the first 3 hits before the ghosting happens were all crits. Now these two scenarios are not exaggerations, especially not the second one. As FC said, adventurers are now weaker than ever.


    There are 2 reasons why Dueler and Adventurer are less reliable than the other two classes in most scenarios:

    1- Their class bonuses rely on RNG only.
    2- Their class bonuses have nothing to do with Attributes and Skills, therefore, while Soldiers and Workers get epic results from their class passives just because they have ^2 FF gear, a level 40 and itemless Dueler/Adventurer has the same class bonus advantage compared to a level 140 ^2 FF gear Dueler/Adventurer.



    Part -2: FF Rewards

    I fully agree that damagers get the most rewards from battles even though they are the easiest and most convenient ones to play. They do not die until the end, they do not risk themselves, they perform well, and they get 6000 XP and high bonds each battle. A rework is needed to ensure that Dodging, Ghosting and Landing Hits also give good rewards, because clearly, currently the only thing the system rewards well is dealing damage.


    PS. Yes Raider I am Turkish :)

    PS-2. I also agree that Attack is far more winnable than Defense, but have no idea how to fix that.

    Edit: I will adress the Resistance and Damage bonuses on my next reply.
     
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  17. RaiderTr

    RaiderTr Well-Known Member

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    Uhm, I'm a lvl 130+ soldier with 11k Hp and Duelers of similar levels hit me with 2k something with critic, and 1k something without -which is a lot and it's all up to RNG luck of me that how many Duelers will miss/hit in same turn.
    I just might die in 1 turn like all other classes..

    %1 hp damage means 110 damage thou? You mean extra 110 damage every turn?
    That would be interesting really! But I think would favor High Hp a bit too much, no?

    I agree with levels and skills/attributes not having effect on Adventurers & Duelers part.

    >> Actually Dodging & Landing hits gives rewards (0.1 bonds per) but Ghosting, Losing Hp (aka Taking one for the team) etc doesn't.

    >> Of Resistance, I still insist that it should be % damage reduction rather than flat damage reduction -which causing Low Levels to Not deal damage, while becoming close to useless on High Levels.

    >> Solving the insane damage issue should help to Defending more than it does to Attacking imho.
    Because mainly the Defense has less LoS than the Attack and Towers aren't helping as much as before -thanks to Sets becoming more and more powerful.

    So you need more coordination and following + more Hp to keep swapping.
    If you can't hold at least 2 Towers and a Wall, it's over.

    Edit:
    What if Damage Bonuses were Percentage based? I mean if Resist is gonna be, why not that too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019