Change the stamina skill to improve fortfighting

DeletedUser

Proposal
Change the stamina skill for attacking fortfighters to setting traps skill, (ofcourse also then follow up that change, to change the natty\jeremiah\munny's set stamina from stamina to setting traps to prevent massive outrage)

Current Workaround
My fair is that devs will review the current ff system and also notice defending is very hard these days, and will just increase the tower bonusses, which doesn't solve the big flaw in the fort battle formula, or fix the hp build advantages in attacks(which is uch easier for them to do then actually throw themselves into the hassle of changing not only the formula but also some gear)

Details
Atm for defenders of fort fights hiding is used as most important skill, and for attackers it is stamina, with the recent update on the fort fight formula, the importance of these skills skyrocketted. Where the idea of the recent changes was to make hp a less important skill in fortfights, and make skills more important, it basically failed, where in the past a defence could withstand attacks with big hp advantages by swapping and teamwork, now whatever you try will not succeed vs a big hp advantage, since most hp builds or FF builds even are 80-100% of the attribute points in strength.

This causes most having very high hp, and very high stamina, this superhigh stamina causes most hp tanks having 70-80 FF attack in fights just on the ground, where those defending tanks on towers(especially on wrong class towers) barely much that in FF defence, as result where before hp tanks in attacks and in lesser extent in defences generally had quite some difficulty to land a hit, they now really have to try to actually miss, causing defences to get sacked easily(not to mention they are a hell of a lot harder to hit for the defence as well).

To counter this problem there is a very easy solution, change stamina to the setting traps skill. The reason for this is that pure hp tank builds, won't get any skills from strength attribute points. This way people need not only to think about where to distribute their sp points but also where to put their ap points. You really have to make the decision to lose some hp to increase your skills a bit or not. causing a much better balance and levelling the playing field a bit more, also it will effectively do what the devs wanted: lower the importance of hp, though still make it the most important fortfight skill.


Visual Aids
N/A

Summary
Change the stamina skill into the setting traps skill in the fortfight formula. the community benefits by having a more balanced fortfighting formula ultimately causing more balanced fights, innogames benefits that their goal of making hp a less important skill into fortfights then before will be achieved much better then they did with their current change

Administration
Does this idea meet the Ideas Guidelines & Criteria? prolly
Does this idea appear on any of the Previously Suggested Ideas List? Nope though have been posted in some form in the saloon as well
 

jarograv

Well-Known Member
Agreed 100%! You could make the argument that attackers need the additional bonus given from stamina for taking on towers, with this change attackers will be more focused on dexterity meaning they will still have the increase in aim which which results from focusing on dexterity. Atm it feels as if winning a fort is commonplace given the ease that forts are able to be overtaken.
 

DeletedUser28189

Whether or not the Devs feel Trapping is the appropriate change, I agree something must be reconsidered to create more diversity and balance along the lines of appointing a non-strength AP related skill for attack skilling. Increasing tower bonuses will not solve the problem, as it will just make a strong attacking force even stronger once they mount.

When the whole discussion of revamping fort skills and creating a subset of skills for resistance was brought up, I had hoped that we would see more emphasis on aim and dodge, which would have brought more use to those skills, but also would have started to make a real argument for better inclusion of low HP duelers with high aim/dodge. I'm not sure why more wasn't done with these two skills, which have always been part of the equation, but clearly their effects in the overall equation are seemingly only marginally effective.

I do like the idea of appointing a Dex-based skill, which would help spread the point skilling even more and, as Zeta mentions, force players to be more creative and make some more critical choices about how they skill for fighting.
 
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DeletedUser

If you kept the formulas the same, but, made stamina for shooting only and hiding for dodging only, then surely both attackers and defenders benefit the same. That way, the tower and wall bonuses would still really benefit the defenders and the attackers would not be too over powered. I t would also allow for some variety in build as some people may want an ultra dodgy build while others may want more sniping.
 

DeletedUser34315

I think stamina should be replaced with a skill that is NOT covered by having your AP in strength for the HP. Hiding- you have to specifically go put points into that to get a bonus from it. Stamina's high bonus just encourages tanks, as now they can hit and dodge much better.
 

DeletedUser

Why so complicated formulas

I cannot understand why so many skills need to be used anyway, surely skills can be spread across only all 4 Attributes ie.(STR) Health= do I need to explain, (MOB) Dodge=% chance to dodge a shot, (DEX) Aim=% chance to score a hit & (CHR) Leadership= used in formula with Aim for attack and Dodge for Defence and to determine order of shooting and movement (rather than ranking).

This would force everyone to have to choose whether they put more into STR + HP and leave themselves unable to score a hit or dodge a shot often, put more into DEX + Aim and become a crack shot sniper but less likely to dodge incoming shots and last long with less HP or more into MOB + Dodge and be able to dodge most shots at them but unlikely to last long when they do take hits or be able to hit the side of a barn even if they are stood inside it or more into CHR + Leadership in order to make sure they get the placement on moving and not get bumped leaving themselves exposed to a hale of gunfire .

This I think would force players to make a more balanced all round fort fighter and level the playing field.
 
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DeletedUser

I cannot understand why so many skills need to be used anyway, surely skills can be spread across only all 4 Attributes ie.(STR) Health= do I need to explain, (MOB) Dodge=% chance to dodge a shot, (DEX) Aim=% chance to score a hit & (CHR) Leadership= used in formula with Aim for attack and Dodge for Defence and to determine order of shooting and movement (rather than ranking).

This would force everyone to have to choose whether they put more into STR + HP and leave themselves unable to score a hit or dodge a shot often, put more into DEX + Aim and become a crack shot sniper but less likely to dodge incoming shots and last long with less HP or more into MOB + Dodge and be able to dodge most shots at them but unlikely to last long when they do take hits or be able to hit the side of a barn even if they are stood inside it or more into CHR + Leadership in order to make sure they get the placement on moving and not get bumped leaving themselves exposed to a hale of gunfire .

This I think would force players to make a more balanced all round fort fighter and level the playing field.

there is a simply reason that extra skills are added. aim and dodge play a role but relatively minimal (310 sp in em gives +10 ff attack or defence) but the reason not to make them main skills for fortfighting is to diversify, if aim and dodge would be main skills next to health and leadership, you will see people that are very strong in duelling also very strong in fortfights, and the idea is whatever adventure you choose: high luck jobs carrer, brave builder, fiercesome dueller or brave fortfighter all require different skills sets, which maybe partially overlap, but its not possible to be top notch in all categories you have to make a distinctive choice eventually, just like you do when you choose your class.

As a small add on why i choose setting traps, is that shooting is already a very powerfull skill in terms of duelling and jobbing. fine motor skills is used for key 3, and repairing when you attacking to sack a fort just made to little sense, whereas setting traps(though kinda makes more sense for a defence to do so) seems more logical, on the other hand you can wear a tutu and scythe and a christmas hat when attacking, thus realism might be a bit overrated
 

DeletedUser35352

change stamina would mean all the ffs sets would be now kinda useless. tell that to all the people who invested nugets or milions of ingame cash to get the natty sets or will munny ant others...
there must be some better solution for this issue.
 

DeletedUser25947

Changing it to a non STR skill will only unbalance FF build further as you need to invest quite a few points to that particular skill to be effective. This will " fix " the HP issue of the tanks and make the other medium HP guys who are trying to find a nice balanced build completely useless in attacks or screwing up their build affecting both defense and attack performances. The original formula was good as it was, we didnt had many FF issues IMO, none of the sides were having a massive advantage, the only thing INNO needed to change was number of rounds of battles like 55 for smalls, 60 for mediums, 66 for larges for example and also introduce better FF gun sets, improving a little the damage. Why change something which worked for years ( in terms of the builds and formulas )?
 

Apelatia

Well-Known Member
We were having massive issues. On Colorado, neither side was able to win any fights at all, because both alliances had such massive HP that they couldn't kill everyone in time, even with all 140 attackers equipped with bayonets in a large attack. The adventurer backup was something else altogether haha. This is a good idea. I am for it.
 

DeletedUser35746

I am strongly against. There is more simple solution. All you need is to reskill a bit.
 

DeletedUser

change stamina would mean all the ffs sets would be now kinda useless. tell that to all the people who invested nugets or milions of ingame cash to get the natty sets or will munny ant others...
there must be some better solution for this issue.

as you can read dizzy dee, that can be easily fixed by changing that stat, they already tweaked both rifle sets shortly after the tombola rolled out

I am strongly against. There is more simple solution. All you need is to reskill a bit.

loads of folks did with that free reskill, yet it shows that the current system is disbalanced, for investing ap in strength, you not only get the most important FF skill health, but now also the extremely improved stamina, and as you can see now in fights is that most hp tanks get insane stats in attacks, and even taking 150 hiding which is frankly also a lot doesnt make you dodge much better against such extremely good attack skill


Changing it to a non STR skill will only unbalance FF build further as you need to invest quite a few points to that particular skill to be effective. This will " fix " the HP issue of the tanks and make the other medium HP guys who are trying to find a nice balanced build completely useless in attacks or screwing up their build affecting both defense and attack performances. The original formula was good as it was, we didnt had many FF issues IMO, none of the sides were having a massive advantage, the only thing INNO needed to change was number of rounds of battles like 55 for smalls, 60 for mediums, 66 for larges for example and also introduce better FF gun sets, improving a little the damage. Why change something which worked for years ( in terms of the builds and formulas )?

the issue became that you couldn't kill anyone anymore, and that hp was all that mattered, skills really didnt matter pure hp tanks with 0 skills still were among the best hitters and people who invested in skills barely got anything in return. with all that pure hp many battles couldn't end anymore, yeah you can add another 10 rounds and make a fight last close to 2 hours, 55 rounds already takes a lot of online time of folks.

So a change was made to make hp less important and skills more, for faster and more accesible battles. hp should still count a lot, but in the current system it still pays to be pure or close to pure hp, if you want that to change, and the unbalanced strength of attacks atm, you need to go toward a system you really need to distribute either your ap or sp to get better results, this doesn't overcomplicates fortfights, since there still the same amount of skills involved, but you will reach the effect, that if all those hp folks lose 1-2k hp the total hp of fights drastically lowers, and fights can finish in those 55 rounds much more then they did in the old system
 

DeletedUser18690

Well Spoken Zeta-Navy

I have to agree with Zeta-Navy about having another change. The first change really tweaked things up for defense. It's put us (while attempting to not sound like we're whining about losing most of our forts) at a huge disadvantage and it's cost us dearly, this new FF formula change.

If you want factual data, then check out the fort fights on WestForts and see for yourself what happened when the "beta" testing started. We were holding up pretty well, now we've lost almost 100% of our forts including Large, Medium, and even Small forts throughout Colorado.

I have re-skilled and have done okay under the new formula, however, there's still a significant balance issue and Zeta-Navy has a great idea. If not follow to a 'T' at least it will open up the door of ideas to do something now on the attacking side of the FFs.

Again, for the sake of not sounding like a sore loser (because that's not my reasoning for spamming) more or less I'm trying to embrace this new change by inno and move on even though the old formula I was okay with.
 

DeletedUser

Without any other changes (such as the introduction of new sets and players reskilling to something other than tank builds) I agree from a numerical standpoint, the latest fort fighting formula appears to give the attackers an advantage over the defenders due to the exponent associated with stamina and pre-existing tank builds. However, there were new sets introduced and on my side at least some players did full reskills. Others did partial reskills. Which makes it somewhat difficult to analyze the actual data from the latest fort fights.

As of this writing the fort fights on Colorado have not been semi balanced in terms of average health. In all but one full fight since the introduction of this new formula, the losing side has always had lower average hit points (ranging from ~ 200 to 800 hp difference). Yes, one side has consistently lost forts. That side is the one with the lower average hit points. When attacked, the higher average hit point side has been able to successfully defend its forts. Unfortunately, there are no cases involving the higher average hit point side having to defend against a full attack.

Before I would recommend tweaking with a formula that the newest sets are based upon, I would like to see the results from a couple of full battles on various sized forts where the average hit points are semi equivalent between the two sides. If the same trend holds true then, yes a change might be in order. Although it could be another change, such as increasing the number of defenders would work equally as well and offer the opportunity for more individuals to join in fort fights while preserving the new nugget purchased sets.
 
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DeletedUser22685

westman jr. said:
I am strongly against. There is more simple solution. All you need is to reskill a bit.

loads of folks did with that free reskill, yet it shows that the current system is disbalanced, for investing ap in strength, you not only get the most important FF skill health, but now also the extremely improved stamina, and as you can see now in fights is that most hp tanks get insane stats in attacks, and even taking 150 hiding which is frankly also a lot doesnt make you dodge much better against such extremely good attack skill

Sure, you'll have trouble defending against an army of HP tanks if they keep their HP and their stamina, but that also means they'll suck at defending. No alliance wants to win all their attacks if they're guaranteed to lose their fort the very next time it's attacked. The alliance whose members spec away some of their strength and HP and invest into some hiding will be the alliance who dominates in both attacks and defences. If every fort fighter does this, we'll have balanced attacks and defences again, with less HP (and therefore less boring stalemates) and builds that actually determine how well you perform in battles.
 

DeletedUser

Why not tactics to make people distribute AP in charisma instead of strength, thus lowering stamina and hp at the same time whilst most of the sets would only need a little tweaking?
 

DeletedUser

Why not tactics to make people distribute AP in charisma instead of strength, thus lowering stamina and hp at the same time whilst most of the sets would only need a little tweaking?

At first I wanted to say just remove stamina and hiding and make leadership more important, but yeah, that wouldn't make it two yellow skills. Still, there are two green skills and not many fort fighters spec mobility. I had disagreed with Slygoxx when he suggested it, but I did start speccing 25% mobility in some of my fort fighters, though I did it primarily for jobs, not fort fighting.
 

DeletedUser

the reason you don't do charisma, like tactics, is that you then get the 2nd most important ff skill: leadership(used for damage calculation, order of movement, and gives bonus in attacks and defences) combined with again another powerfull skill

the idea of moving it to a dexterity skill is so that every of the 4 attributes, mob, dex, str, and char got 1 really good FF skill, but then you say unfair cos mob and dex get 2, well just look up how much bonus aim and dodge add to your fortfighting, thats nearly neglectible compared to the other stats
 
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