Cash "Push Fort Battles"

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DeletedUser22575

TheCool??? What spoilers? There is no secret quest to get the key #3.

Buck, currently (version 1.28) there are two possibilities to get the third key:
1. Doing push fort fights
2. Speccing your character to get the max range of item drops on 7500$ or more

How to get the key#3 from push fort fights is explained here in details:
Guide to finding all named weapons + key 3.......

The key drops from fort battles where lots of cash is dropped ie. people carrying cash die and it goes into a "pot", there are no such things as push fort battles. See the link Joker provided.

As you can see from the quotes I posted above their are differences of opinions on the subject of cash fort battles and if they are in fact nothing but "push battles."

Cash fort battles are imo nothing but an attempt to acquire high drop items through the manipulation of the present fort battle system instead of acquiring them as they were meant to be....through working jobs.

When you look at the rule forbidding push dueling you will see that what is against the rules there is in fact happening routinely in cash battles.....

... §6) Push duels

A player may not intentionally take part in a prearranged duel for the sole purpose of providing or receiving from his opponent experience points or money.


Through limited invitation or "closed fort battles" only selected players are able to participate with predetermined "winners and losers".

This "predetermined winning and losing" does in fact manipulate who gets experience points from the fort battles, effects the leveling up of the players which in turn does effect their impact on other players in the game who are not able to participate for a variety of reasons in these "push battles".

It increases the odds through cash lost by the losers of the winners acquiring high value drop items which imo were designed to be found by working. This does indirectly make cash available to those participating in these battles through selling these items. This additional cash opportunity again does effect the game interaction by providing these players an advantage over players who are not allowed to participate in these closed battles.

Additionally this sets up a scenario where a player could actually find, keep, and use an item that he wouldn't even have the labor points to acquire by working.

Additionally this system being used allows the west stats for fort fighting standings (player rankings) to be manipulated by the "predetermined winner/looser system" being used.

While the cash battle system offers an opportunity for excess cash to be pulled from the game which no doubt the developers see as a good thing the positive benefit of that is out weighed by the negative aspects acquiring items this way has on those who are not invited to these closed battles....and it is time for this advantage to end and return to a system where everyone has a level and fair playing field.

IMO there needs to be a rule change outlawing these "push fort battles"....

..OR..

...the cash fort battle system needs to be changed as follows.

1. Each world would have one fort not owned by any town that would be used specifically for cash fort battles.

2. Cash fort battles would be GM moderated with players randomly assigned to either the attacking or defending side as they signed into the battle.

3. A minimum number of players would need to sign in and be available when the battle was to start or the fort battle would be canceled. This would result in a lower entry fee requirement for all players making it affordable even for the lower level players and giving them the same opportunity to acquire high drop items as the high level players.

4. Fort battles would be fought just like real fort battles with one side winning and the other loosing. Players who obviously attempted to manipulate the battles would be ejected from the battle minus their entry fee by the GM.

5. This system would not only pull excess cash from the game, but it would level the playing field again giving all players an equal chance at these items but end the present manipulation of the system effecting item acquisition and experience points.

Thoughts/Comments ??
 
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DeletedUser

well one thing for sure, not many low level characters have more money than they need that can gamble it away on a chance to get something they can use in 50 levels

o and with 14 worlds, which gm is going to want to moderate fort battles on top of whatever else they may be doing? if something like this was to exist, unless suddenly the items became lower worth(reg/rusty weapons rather than named) that fort would be having battles all the time....or at least as often as possible, and with one fort in each world how do you propose that this will be fair and not just the same group that is fighting each battle?

have to go to work so i will cut my rambling short
 

DeletedUser

LOL.

Sorry, but you should get your facts straight.

"Cash fort battles are imo nothing but an attempt to acquire high drop items through the manipulation of the present fort battle system instead of acquiring them as they were meant to be....through working jobs."

There's a limit to the value of items that can be found through jobs. All other items, fancy weapons and stuff, for example the third key, can (because of their value) only be found through fort battles. The devs made the system like it is intentionally, so it's not cheating, not closely, and not in any way of it.

Second: you're quoting a rule about duels. Fort fights are no duels. That's where the comparison to duels should end. ;)

As for the idea: I doubt it's ever going to happen.
 

DeletedUser22575

LOL.

Sorry, but you should get your facts straight.

"Cash fort battles are imo nothing but an attempt to acquire high drop items through the manipulation of the present fort battle system instead of acquiring them as they were meant to be....through working jobs."

There's a limit to the value of items that can be found through jobs. All other items, fancy weapons and stuff, for example the third key, can (because of their value) only be found through fort battles. The devs made the system like it is intentionally, so it's not cheating, not closely, and not in any way of it.

Second: you're quoting a rule about duels. Fort fights are no duels. That's where the comparison to duels should end. ;)

As for the idea: I doubt it's ever going to happen.

I do have my facts straight. These items can be found through jobs. Whats more once the level limit is removed there will be even more able to acquire them through jobs.
And the way the cash fort battles are being handled is nothing more than cheating. I am well aware of what rule i quoted.
 
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DeletedUser

you show me any character in any server that can find earps bluntline, grants sabre, a precise winchester.....

and if it was cheating, there would already been a rule about it since there are countless whining posts about it
 

DeletedUser

I do have my facts straight. These items can be found through jobs. Whats more once the level limit is removed there will be even more able to acquire them through jobs.
And the way the cash fort battles are being handled is nothing more than cheating. I am well aware of what rule i quoted.

No, they won't. At the moment, the fancy weapon with the highest value that has been found through jobs is Allens Pepperbox with 6850$ buy value. Even with the level cap at 120, with an additional 20 attributes and 60 skills, meaning 180 more labour points, you won't get close the Wyatt Earps Buntline or any of those.

Secondly: no, it is not cheating.

It's not in the rules that cash battles are forbidden, mods take part in them and topics to organise them are tolerated on the forums here, but most of all: the devs made this system this way deliberately, so no matter how much you dislike it: it is not cheating.

I would surely have liked an other way the get high value stuff, but there isn't any.
 

DeletedUser22575

No, they won't. At the moment, the fancy weapon with the highest value that has been found through jobs is Allens Pepperbox with 6850$ buy value. Even with the level cap at 120, with an additional 20 attributes and 60 skills, meaning 180 more labour points, you won't get close the Wyatt Earps Buntline or any of those.

Secondly: no, it is not cheating.

It's not in the rules that cash battles are forbidden, mods take part in them and topics to organise them are tolerated on the forums here, but most of all: the devs made this system this way deliberately, so no matter how much you dislike it: it is not cheating.

I would surely have liked an other way the get high value stuff, but there isn't any.

Then it needs to be moderated so everyone has an equal chance at acquiring it through cash fort battles instead of the present system being used by part of the towns. Or did you miss that point?
 

DeletedUser

Everyone has an equal chance at acquiring items through cash battles. I am organizing cash battles in world 2. It is not an easy job and I am making sure everybody gets an equal chance to survive. I asked everybody who wants to take part of this and are willing to spare money to sign up. I set up a certain number of survivors for each battle who stay out of LOS. The survivors rotate so everybody gets a chance to get something, with a little bit of luck. It is not GM, just an effort of a few people who are trying to make it work.
The fact that we have uninvited people at each battle, demonstrates there is no comparison between this and push duels. While in a duel you can make sure how much you give to your opponent and who your opponent is, in cash battles even one player can change the entire course of a battle. We had one player who came without money and uninvited who kept hiding between our set survivors. Also most people who come uninvited like to be on the defending side, thus not enough players die so the money are a bit short sometimes and the items found are not so great.
Also, the fact that is luck based, even if you survive, there is no way to know for sure that you do get something ... And when someone does find something great makes you feel it was worth the effort.
 

DeletedUser

Then it needs to be moderated so everyone has an equal chance at acquiring it through cash fort battles instead of the present system being used by part of the towns. Or did you miss that point?

I most certainly did not miss it. Everyone already has an equal chance. Everyone is free to organise a cash battle. If you don't, then that's your problem.
 

DeletedUser22575

Everyone has an equal chance at acquiring items through cash battles. I am organizing cash battles in world 2. It is not an easy job and I am making sure everybody gets an equal chance to survive. I asked everybody who wants to take part of this and are willing to spare money to sign up. I set up a certain number of survivors for each battle who stay out of LOS. The survivors rotate so everybody gets a chance to get something, with a little bit of luck. It is not GM, just an effort of a few people who are trying to make it work.
The fact that we have uninvited people at each battle, demonstrates there is no comparison between this and push duels. While in a duel you can make sure how much you give to your opponent and who your opponent is, in cash battles even one player can change the entire course of a battle. We had one player who came without money and uninvited who kept hiding between our set survivors. Also most people who come uninvited like to be on the defending side, thus not enough players die so the money are a bit short sometimes and the items found are not so great.
Also, the fact that is luck based, even if you survive, there is no way to know for sure that you do get something ... And when someone does find something great makes you feel it was worth the effort.

But you do try and make it fair by rotating, etc.

And for everyone to have an "equal chance" everyone who is willing to bring the money should have the opportunity to participate.

Not everyone runs things the same way you do in other worlds.
 

DeletedUser8675

I do have my facts straight. These items can be found through jobs. Whats more once the level limit is removed there will be even more able to acquire them through jobs.
And the way the cash fort battles are being handled is nothing more than cheating. I am well aware of what rule i quoted.

Really? You can find Key 3 and Grants Saber through Jobs?
Where's your proof.. Oh wait, you have none? That is your problem then. :laugh:

TJ, if you have a problem with someone not playing push fort fights "fairly" then I suggest you take that up with them, not people who ARE running it equally (i.e Duduie). Ionus Qin is doing things very fairly also on w9.
 
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DeletedUser22575

Really? You can find Key 3 and Grants Saber through Jobs?
Where's your proof.. Oh wait, you have none? That is your problem then. :laugh:

TJ, if you have a problem with someone not playing push fort fights "fairly" then I suggest you take that up with them, not people who ARE running it equally (i.e Duduie). Ionus Qin is doing things very fairly also on w9.

I am not aware of key 3 being found anywhere anyway yet...I might have missed something though.

And I think I made it clear in my reply to Duduie's post it seemed like he was being fair about it, and I am sure there are others out there being just as fair.

And I think you have been around long enough to know there are others out there who can be just as unfair as they are fair. As a player there is not much I can do about it except do what I do..push the duel button on them as often as I can.

However..does that not mean we can't try for a system that is more fair to everyone and cut out this garbage from the few?
 

DeletedUser8675

I am not aware of key 3 being found anywhere anyway yet...I might have missed something though.

And I think I made it clear in my reply to Duduie's post it seemed like he was being fair about it, and I am sure there are others out there being just as fair.

And I think you have been around long enough to know there are others out there who can be just as unfair as they are fair. As a player there is not much I can do about it except do what I do..push the duel button on them as often as I can.

However..does that not mean we can't try for a system that is more fair to everyone and cut out this garbage from the few?

We can TRY, but I think you just have to avoid the "unfair" ones. Don't like the way they run it? Then, like you said, duel them, or put up with it.
And, judging by your posts, you are not looking for a new "system" that is more fair, you are trying to get it outlawed completely. Good luck.
 

DeletedUser

TJTuttle,I know exactly how you feel,there are many players that have the same view. It's cheap and somewhat bordering a cheat in the traditional classical way of viewing "fixed" matches.No doubt about it,and your dueling example is not far fetched or out of topic as it is showing the spirit of the game:getting rewards the legit way,without excessive manipulation of the system.
Even so I wouldn't mind this system too much if there was a formal way to organize these,ie: mandatory fee to enter and participate because right now it's frustrating to try to organize/participate in these without leeches coming in with empty pockets....maybe in future updates we'll have better tools .

Anyways fort battle fixing in TheWest is here to stay because players just want the named weapons and do not care how they get them,further more it's a feature designed that way that was planned and announced ahead of time.So even though it's not something that everyone necessarily care for there is nothing to do but get with the program and participate in these battles to get your "earned" legendary weapon.
 

DeletedUser16008

Firstly cash battles are the ONLY way to get certain items and its total pot luck who gets what IF at all.

Secondly the Devs MADE it this way, do you see any items getting dropped at normal battles ? i think not.

Thirdly there is NO such thing as a "spirit" of the game if the ONLY way to acquire such items is through cash battles. its taken until very recently to work it out and the items have been available ever since forts came out.

As for manipulation of the game ? well thats the way the Devs have intended the drops to happen, it requires more organization than you could possibly imagine, especially in order to give everyone a fair chance through rotation.

Its total luck if you ever get anything let alone something you can use. Either get something together if you can deal with all the organization or quit complaining.
 

DeletedUser22575

Firstly cash battles are the ONLY way to get certain items and its total pot luck who gets what IF at all.

Secondly the Devs MADE it this way, do you see any items getting dropped at normal battles ? i think not.

Thirdly there is NO such thing as a "spirit" of the game if the ONLY way to acquire such items is through cash battles. its taken until very recently to work it out and the items have been available ever since forts came out.

As for manipulation of the game ? well thats the way the Devs have intended the drops to happen, it requires more organization than you could possibly imagine, especially in order to give everyone a fair chance through rotation.

Its total luck if you ever get anything let alone something you can use. Either get something together if you can deal with all the organization or quit complaining.

First off Victor just because someone points out what they see as a flaw in the system that does not mean they are complaining. The system for fort cash battles can be better with more tools available to insure those who come do bring the money for one example.

And second off, you know as well as I do that the way some of these fort battles are handled that it is not always a "fair system of rotation".

Third off, you have been around long enough to know that just because the devas do something doesn't mean it has always well thought through. While their intent was to remove cash from the game and to allow these items to be acquired I seriously doubt their intent was for it to be manipulated the way it is being manipulated.

If they had no concerns about how experience was acquired I don't think they would have put a rule in effect concerning push dueling now do you?
 

DeletedUser

First off Victor just because someone points out what they see as a flaw in the system that does not mean they are complaining.
Actually whatever it means is immaterial and irrelevant to the subject at hand but even if it meant that it was a complain I can honestly say that I am a free citizen living a free country and can I complain all day long if i wanted to :)
It always cracks me up when posters act like some general/dictator for life/grand Mojo ordering us to behave a certain way and quit complaining ...No no, seriously, order us some more we will execute immediately ! LOL


The system for fort cash battles can be better with more tools available to insure those who come do bring the money for one example.
Yeap it would be more fun and take some of the frustration away,I'll go for that.

Third off, you have been around long enough to know that just because the devas do something doesn't mean it has always well thought through. While their intent was to remove cash from the game and to allow these items to be acquired I seriously doubt their intent was for it to be manipulated the way it is being manipulated.
Unfortunately i have to disagree,the "bring cash to fort battles" and get cool toys was announced ahead of time,several updates prior to taking effect.It's hard to believe it wasn't planned that way or that the manipulation would not have been foreseen.
 

DeletedUser8675

Clearly TJ you are being delusional again. You obviously were complaining, now you are trying to say you were merely pointing out a flaw in the system. You are obviously unhappy about something and are voicing your opinion, that is complaining.
Let me redirect you to the dictionary.com definition of the world "complain":
to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault: He complained constantly about the noise in the corridor.-Dictionary.com - Definition of Complain
 

DeletedUser22575

Clearly TJ you are being delusional again. You obviously were complaining, now you are trying to say you were merely pointing out a flaw in the system. You are obviously unhappy about something and are voicing your opinion, that is complaining.
Let me redirect you to the dictionary.com definition of the world "complain":
to express dissatisfaction, pain, uneasiness, censure, resentment, or grief; find fault: He complained constantly about the noise in the corridor.-Dictionary.com - Definition of Complain

lol

ok. i will accept your definition. :)
 

DeletedUser

here is a suggestion
rather than a modded battle how about embracing the fort cash battle by enabling an option on your own fort to start a cash battle
where every entrant who wants to join in has the option to make a deposit (like banking into town treasury)
which as currently lots of ppl prefer defending in cash battles carries say a fee of $7000 for a defender and $5000 attacker
no deposit means no signup for battle available stopping freeloaders
also would be possible to disable the ranking function for town leaders to stop manipulation that way making it a first come first served battle

just an idea to make cash battles fairer for all as it seems they are here for good
 
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