Best Ranged Set

Caerdwyn

Well-Known Member
@WhyN0t so if opponent has more tactics does he get 100% bonus dodging or do i get an aim penalty? (And how much)

Definitely not a Dodge bonus/penalty as only Aim is mentioned in the affects of applying Appearance or Tactics Skills to duels in the skill description. From WhyN0t's comment, I would expect you to earn a 100% Aim penalty if you lose the Appearance vs. Tactics comparison, but will wait for an actual dueler to confirm that.
 

WhyN0t

Well-Known Member
100000 aiming???

Has the game really changed that much since the last time I was here???
I intentionally exaggerated some values. It's impossible to have so much aiming. The point was that the respective will hit all hits (8/8), but will do minimal damage due to insufficient shooting/vigor, so 25% of weapon damage + enhancement. And you with 2 hits in the arm will beat him, because you will give maximum damage (175% of weapon damage + enhancements). His tactics/look and aim are irrelevant in this case, even if these values would tend to infinity, it's not enough to win due to low damage per hit.

@WhyN0t so if opponent has more tactics does he get 100% bonus dodging or do i get an aim penalty? (And how much)
He gets 100% aiming and you get no penalty. You could calculate it differently. The opponent gets 50% aiming bonus and you get 50% penalty on dodging, but in the end it would be about the same difference and I find it much easier to calculate with double the aim. I think you double your dodging if you dodge where enemy hits.

let me see if I got this right:
1) if your appearance won't be higher than their tactics you might as well have zero appearance?
2) if your appearance IS higher than their tactics, every additional point there is wasted?
3) if your .75*(reflex|toughness)+.25*(toughness|resistance) is below their (shooting|vigor) you receive no resist bonus and might as well hove no resist?
4) if your .75*(reflex|toughness)+.25*(toughness|resistance) is above their (shooting|vigor) you receive a resist bonus and every extra point there is wasted?

1. Exactly!
2. Exactly!
And if you don't believe me, just test it on someone afk with his tactics value on Rankings. First time you use as much appearance as you can, but not enough to break his tactics, then you attack him with as little appearance as possible, but keeping the same aiming/dodging as in the first duel. You may need more than 2 duels because of the random, but it's not hard to demonstrate.
3. It's 1 * reflex/toughness + 0.25* toughness/reflex, not .75 and .25 and the difference should be 100+ points. So you have 400 reflex and 400 toughness and the enemy has at least 600 shooting/vigor he will deal 175% weapon (+enhancement) damage. This is a fix value. It's the maximum damage. So yeah, you might as well have no resistance in this case.
4. The same mention as at point 3, it's 1 * reflex/toughness+.25* toughness/reflex and the difference is at least 100 points, and yes. every extra point is wasted, but be careful. The enemy may use enhancements to increase his toughness/reflex, you you better have more than less, just to be sure it's enough.

100
175
55
170
40
165
30
160
20
145
10
130
5
115
3
110
0
100
-3
90
-5
85
-10
70
-20
55
-30
40
-40
35
-55
30
-100
25

Here are some values. The first value represents a percentage, it is the value of the damage multiplier. (175=175% of the weapon damage + enhancements). The second value is the difference between the vigor/shooting and the final resistance (100% * toughness+25% reflex for melee weapon and 100% * reflex +25% toughness for firearm). There is a small deviation that I have noticed for a few years, sometimes the weapon damage alternates between two closest multipliers (for example you deal 1.75x weapon damage, but also 1.7, if shooting/vigor is not extremely high and the opponent has very high resistance, but I have not managed to do enough calculations related to this, and I assure you that if you follow the formulas mentioned above and this table, you will always have accurate results, you can even determine the opponent's build in a duel according to the damage given/taken.
 
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Harriet Oleson

Well-Known Member
Maybe the wiki should be updated then, cause it's written here :

"If the tactic skill of the defender is higher than the appearance skill of the challenger, the defender gets a bonus on the Aimskill. If the tactic skill of the defender is lower than the appearance skill of the challenger, the challenger gets a bonus on the Aim skill. The bigger the difference between the skills, the more the aim bonus is given."
 

WhyN0t

Well-Known Member
I don't think the wiki has official data (neither do I). The duel formula was never realesed.
 

WhyN0t

Well-Known Member
Definitely not a Dodge bonus/penalty as only Aim is mentioned in the affects of applying Appearance or Tactics Skills to duels in the skill description. From WhyN0t's comment, I would expect you to earn a 100% Aim penalty if you lose the Appearance vs. Tactics comparison, but will wait for an actual dueler to confirm that.
100% penalty means you have 0 aiming. If you get 100% bonus you double your aiming and enemy doesn't get any bonus or penalty. And what i said is not necessary the precise formula, but an aproximation. It may be +50% for you and -50% for enemy, i am not sure, but it's almost the same either way.
 

Harriet Oleson

Well-Known Member
I think you're right WhyN0t, about the x2 bonus in aiming.
I didn't do any test about that but I've found a thread in a foreign The West forum where it was mentioned. Not officially though, but the player who wrote that said it was Ashok (a team member from what I understood ?) who told him that. He didn't quote the message and the message is from 2013, so maybe not relevant anymore. But the player still wrote he was told the exact same thing than your conclusion about the Aiming skill : it was multiplied by 2 after a simple comparison of attacker's appearance and defender's tactics.
 

Goober Pyle

The West Team
Fort Balancing Strategist
Maybe the wiki should be updated then, cause it's written here :

"If the tactic skill of the defender is higher than the appearance skill of the challenger, the defender gets a bonus on the Aimskill. If the tactic skill of the defender is lower than the appearance skill of the challenger, the challenger gets a bonus on the Aim skill. The bigger the difference between the skills, the more the aim bonus is given."
I could be true, but the flip at the crossover trumps the marginal value so much as to make it meaningless; the extra points just don't really do much for you.

that is, say the formula amounted to:
500:0=>Attacker aim+150%,
300:200=>Attacker aim+110%,
251:249=>Attacker aim+100.2%,
249:251=>Defender aim+100.2%,
200:300=>Defender aim+110%,
0:500=>Defender aim+150%
it really wouldn't be all that noticably different from if it amounted to:
500:0=>Attacker aim+100%,
300:200=>Attacker aim+100%,
251:249=>Attacker aim+100%,
249:251=>Defender aim+100%,
200:300=>Defender aim+100%,
0:500=>Defender aim+100%
 

WhyN0t

Well-Known Member
I don't know, it may be true, but this was never officially realesed, so I'm a little skeptical. Even if what you wrote above were true, it's harder to get appearance than it is to get aiming, so for a little extra appearance you'll lose more aiming and dodging (and probably vigor/shooting) than you'll get from that extra bonus of extra appearance. In conclusion, it's not worth attacking with a lot of appearance, even if you get a bonus for more. Although I am doubtful. That wiki contains several mistakes, I would not rely on it.
 
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