Backpack limitation and horse-overhaul

DeletedUser

i have to agree with diggo here, the donkey cant have a carrying capacity greater than all the others. you would have to make the price of all horses the same, which would be stupid. the way you set it up Vin, is that all horses have an equal value, yet the faster horses cost more. so if the prices were changed, the donkey would have to cost the same amount as a quarter horse, as well as all other horses.

to make this simpler, i think they should just add sattles, like it was said earlier. some sattles would allow more backpack space, but decrease speed, say 20%. other sattles would add no space bonuses, but would increase speed 20%. and of course, there would be the ones inbetween and all.


Examples:

sattle #1: +30 backpack space, -20% speed

sattle #2: +20 backpack space, -10% speed

sattle #3: +10 backpack space, 0% speed (no difference)

sattle #4: +5 backpack spaces, +5% speed

sattle #5: +0 backpack spaces, +10% speed

sattle #6: -10 backpack spaces, +20% speed
 

DeletedUser

6 saddles is excessive. There are pack saddles and there are riding saddles. Pack saddles add whatever to capacity and nothing to speed (because you can't ride a pack saddle). Riding saddles add a small amount to capacity and give you the animal's speed bonus. Capacity shouldn't vary that much.

A pack animal can carry about 20% of it's weight, period. Any pack saddle should properly distribute the weight so it can carry it's full capacity. The capacity of an animal without a saddle would be much less, but I don't know how you could really implement that, because you could also ride bareback and switching between the 2 would be way too complicated.
 

Diggo11

Well-Known Member
i have to agree with diggo here, the donkey cant have a carrying capacity greater than all the others. you would have to make the price of all horses the same, which would be stupid. the way you set it up Vin, is that all horses have an equal value, yet the faster horses cost more. so if the prices were changed, the donkey would have to cost the same amount as a quarter horse, as well as all other horses.

to make this simpler, i think they should just add sattles, like it was said earlier. some sattles would allow more backpack space, but decrease speed, say 20%. other sattles would add no space bonuses, but would increase speed 20%. and of course, there would be the ones inbetween and all.


Examples:

sattle #1: +30 backpack space, -20% speed

sattle #2: +20 backpack space, -10% speed

sattle #3: +10 backpack space, 0% speed (no difference)

sattle #4: +5 backpack spaces, +5% speed

sattle #5: +0 backpack spaces, +10% speed

sattle #6: -10 backpack spaces, +20% speed
I can't say I really agree with your idea but it is more balanced, and therefore an improvement on the current proposal.
 

DeletedUser

By just adding saddles you don't remove the linearity of the existing horses. The idea is interesting, though. It would allow you to "customize" your mount.

The general idea with my suggestion is to get rid of the linearity in the horses. If one would have 3000$ and one would have to choose a horse, 100% of the people will take the quarter horse. That's basically a waste of all the other horses, and that's what I want to prevent.

If my proposed values are unacceptable for you, we can change those. But the arguments seem to be going only about those values. Donkey being to overpowered, speed horses too expensive. I didn't set those values in stone, you know...

The main idea is the division in classes. Make hauler-animals with low speed and high backpack, mid-way horses that are the middle road and fast horses with high speed and low backpack. That would take away all linearity, while not nerfing anyone.

If they just introduce a linear backpack increase in the existing horses, it will only add to a more bland generic experience, with everyone going for the top one and not bothering to look at them ever again. With a division, allowing players to make a choice, they may one day decide to switch to another class, because their playstyle changed. That is the main goal. Giving choice = good, linearity = bland.

So, IF you agree with the classes, let's come up with a better list of statistics. Let's stay flexible here.
 

DeletedUser

Should we just be saying "No we do not want this limited back pack" rather like when they proposed change in construction points for building up towns rather than trying to come up with fair ideas that will never get implemented.
 

DeletedUser

You can easily do the following, normalize your database to 3rd degree or more.

Item ID | Item Name
1 | wheat
2 | oranges

Table player inventory
Player ID | Item ID | quantity

You have to rejoin tables for operation but as you can see, by splitting up the tables and keep the minimum amount of space necessary to store the item, you can cut down on the storage space needed. You can use smallint, or 3 bytes to store item ID if you wish. Item name can be varchar, quantity, I dunno, smallint perhaps?

Isn't that database design 101? It never occurred to me that they'd store the data any other way. Why store the same identical whole strings 20000 times when you can just link to a table via an ID integer, as you demonstrated??? I'm not a database professional and I know this. :huh:

(I'm not criticizing you or your suggestion, just wondering if the devs really might not already know this!)
 

DeletedUser

i think any and all changes should not effect current worlds and should be on a new world.

the reason is because when you change things on a world already going then it can effect peoples items, skills, jobs, location. everything can and would change.

I believe on a fresh world implement alot of the changes there first.

I would like an idea of alot of items are kept at your town like at your house. anytime you leave thats when the space comes into effect.

With that also in play if you ever leave the town you still will have all the items but move very slow due to the load you have. this speed will be the same for everyone even if you only have one item or 200.

For example it takes you 15 mins to go from your town to the other town normally. if you decide to move to that town it would take 2 hours. this will also help keep people from leaving towns to go to other towns to just shop then come back. not stopping it just making it now if you want to do it make sure you get a shopping list first.

This will effect players that do not want to join towns and want to be adventures. so maybe do something to balance that out for those players. that would be tricky to do unless you made it where the adventure class could never join a town. they can already sleep for free anyways. make them pay full price for items instead of letting them shop for 1/4 the price. i dont know but with this plan there are alot of bugs and holes to fill to make it fair for those who never want to be in a town.
 
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DeletedUser

Nerfing is only bad from one perspective. A nerf is usually about game balance, not screwing everybody. My point is that this whole suggestion covers one element that is already included in an officially proposed change.

We currently have mounts traveling in various speed.

We currently have unlimited backpack.

Why should we settle for limited backpack without any significant gain in other area? Why even bother limiting backpacks in the first place? I do not understand that rationale.

I currently use a lot of backpack space to store future quest items.
I also have a variety of clothing, like one of my dueler friend commented, I switch my clothing a lot when I go from job to job.

Pure duelers have the least to lose from limiting backpacks. They don't need to do quests. They don't need to worry about jobs, all they need to be concerned about is some weapons (low damage weapon to rob someone repeatedly without killing them, high damage weapon to kill someone, even firearm + melee depending on your target's reflex or toughness value)

Builders don't need much backpack space either, they just need 1 set of clothing to build town.

Workers who also quest will be hit hardest by this limit.

Why make this game less fun, some workers will lose their jobs. Some people who plan ahead and do the quest items for later quests while in low level may end up carrying those items for a long time. I know I kept my rolls of cloth since around level 20 from trading because prior to that, I did not know about future quest information as well and sold some of those berries, water, etc. which I now have to go visit those low level jobs to obtain those items.

All these inconvenience without much, if any gain to the "fun" factor is a nerf.
 

DeletedUser

Isn't that database design 101? It never occurred to me that they'd store the data any other way. Why store the same identical whole strings 20000 times when you can just link to a table via an ID integer, as you demonstrated??? I'm not a database professional and I know this. :huh:

(I'm not criticizing you or your suggestion, just wondering if the devs really might not already know this!)

I am only speculating. I joined this game fairly early, not as early as some of my friends from tribalwar, who joined this game on first day or week, not too sure and urged me to join them.

I just remember all the backpack items were distinct, separate and now job products may stack (I only see my notes part 2 isn't stacked, all the others seem to stack) That's why I speculate about this limit might be related to space issue.

The amount of space necessary to store all the data can multiply easily as you get more character, more worlds, taking up more and more storage space. Most of the time, you should normalize tables, but there are times where you actually need to denormalize tables.

You don't always want to use the least space possible. For example, if you pick smallint and later realize you need int to store data due to your expanded ID range. Hopefully you just need to transform your table but if you have code that hard code to expect only small int range, you're in trouble. Sometimes it's for future expansion or other foreseeable reasons you purposely store data in space larger than necessary. Program can live a long time. Sometimes much longer than the original plan.

i think any and all changes should not effect current worlds and should be on a new world.

the reason is because when you change things on a world already going then it can effect peoples items, skills, jobs, location. everything can and would change.

I believe on a fresh world implement alot of the changes there first.

I would like an idea of alot of items are kept at your town like at your house. anytime you leave thats when the space comes into effect.

With that also in play if you ever leave the town you still will have all the items but move very slow due to the load you have. this speed will be the same for everyone even if you only have one item or 200.

For example it takes you 15 mins to go from your town to the other town normally. if you decide to move to that town it would take 2 hours. this will also help keep people from leaving towns to go to other towns to just shop then come back. not stopping it just making it now if you want to do it make sure you get a shopping list first.

This will effect players that do not want to join towns and want to be adventures. so maybe do something to balance that out for those players. that would be tricky to do unless you made it where the adventure class could never join a town. they can already sleep for free anyways. make them pay full price for items instead of letting them shop for 1/4 the price. i dont know but with this plan there are alot of bugs and holes to fill to make it fair for those who never want to be in a town.

I think they should've done this long time ago, keep old worlds the same when it comes to major change, that may require a character skill re-assignment or character class re-assignment. It screw up planning, etc.

The problem is code tree/branches. If you keep too much variation and the variation are not a result of parameters where you just need to adjust the values, it can get messy very quick.
 

DeletedUser

I just remember all the backpack items were distinct, separate and now job products may stack (I only see my notes part 2 isn't stacked, all the others seem to stack) That's why I speculate about this limit might be related to space issue.

I've noticed the weird behavior of stacking, but that's the first technical suggestion I've seen as to an explanation. My problem with that is that when I've had things not auto-stack, they usually (always?) have stacked when I "forced" them to by putting them 1 by 1 into the product slot on the paper doll. That suggests to me that there isn't any underlying difference between the objects in the database, but rather some kind of issue with the auto-stack routine; maybe they have multiple versions of that, with different jobs getting different versions? Maybe something to do with when they rearranged the jobs on the maps?? Just guesses on my part too.

The amount of space necessary to store all the data can multiply easily as you get more character, more worlds, taking up more and more storage space. Most of the time, you should normalize tables, but there are times where you actually need to denormalize tables.

You don't always want to use the least space possible. For example, if you pick smallint and later realize you need int to store data due to your expanded ID range. Hopefully you just need to transform your table but if you have code that hard code to expect only small int range, you're in trouble. Sometimes it's for future expansion or other foreseeable reasons you purposely store data in space larger than necessary. Program can live a long time. Sometimes much longer than the original plan.

That's all well and good in theory, but in this case they were designing an MMORPG from the beginning, so IMO they couldn't possibly have failed to expect these objects to occur thousands of times. If they did then there's got to be a good nerd story there. :)
 

DeletedUser

That's all well and good in theory, but in this case they were designing an MMORPG from the beginning, so IMO they couldn't possibly have failed to expect these objects to occur thousands of times. If they did then there's got to be a good nerd story there.

I'm wondering if fixing the stacking error is the thing that's stopping them from implementing inventory caps. If that's the case, let's hope they never fix stacking.
 

DeletedUser

not work-horse it's white horse

Yet another part of this game I find comical and unrealistic-
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A WHITE HORSE! In reality all horses that one would consider to be "white" are referred to as "gray" Just an fyi in case you are talking to someone someday who grew up around stock, on a working ranch and you don't want to sound illiterate. It doesn't surprise me though, as the dueling is so far from the reality of the "real west" this is just another example
 

DeletedUser

I've noticed the weird behavior of stacking, but that's the first technical suggestion I've seen as to an explanation. My problem with that is that when I've had things not auto-stack, they usually (always?) have stacked when I "forced" them to by putting them 1 by 1 into the product slot on the paper doll. That suggests to me that there isn't any underlying difference between the objects in the database, but rather some kind of issue with the auto-stack routine; maybe they have multiple versions of that, with different jobs getting different versions? Maybe something to do with when they rearranged the jobs on the maps?? Just guesses on my part too.



That's all well and good in theory, but in this case they were designing an MMORPG from the beginning, so IMO they couldn't possibly have failed to expect these objects to occur thousands of times. If they did then there's got to be a good nerd story there. :)

You will be surprised. Not this game but I've been in games where the same error occured over and over. The developer(s) seem to have never learned, fixed it in old game, then same error occured in the next version or worse, a completely new game...argh.

Trivial things such as, you should not be able to build negative amount, or demolish beyond 0.

Tribalwars.net had one such interesting error but at least it was not prevalent, you can get negative wall (or at least you could, not sure about now) when you queue up demolishing walls and at the same time, massive ram hits, reduce your wall to 0. Subsquent demolish make your village's wall becoming negative.

Of course, I was not immune to bugs/errors myself. I setup rigorous bounds check on input, due to my background (back when I had to work with only getc() and write my own input parsing routine). The upside is harder for all those typical overflow stacking error attacking windows because I check for bounds and illegal input at input stage.

The downside is if I hardcode too much to meet deadline, if my code live beyond its intended life, it can be a nightmare to modify after many years.

I won't bore you guys who are not interested in these stories. I just feel this game needs to get on the right direction. I watched my friends quit this game, due to being griefed to "quit" by duelers, boredom, lack of goal, and what not. Games should be fun, not all those senseless fun reducing nerfs, such as this proposed 30 item limit in the backpack.

What are the benefits of limiting 30 items in backpack?

1. Reduce amount of items being stored on the server.

2. Reduce the # of jobs workers can do since they can't carry around an assortment of equipment for different jobs, thus cut down on the # of good jobs they can do. This is good from the developer's perspective as it will take longer before players reach level 99.

3. Force duelers to work on even less jobs if they can't find targets. Duelers tend to have skill points in dueling related skills, too bad for you, you need your dueling gear, it's your livelihood, 30 items in your backpack.

4. Force people to gather quest items after they accept quest to minimize the amount of items in their backpack.

5. Force people to leave town and shop earlier, rather than collect items in their backpack and sell them while shopping at a town because now you can't maximimze your $$$ by deposit in bank + store them in your backpack.

The list goes on and on.

This game is still development in progress, I thnik it's obvious when quests stops at around level 50. Items in shops (excluding gun smith) stop around level 45 requirement.

I just think there are better ways to nerf, hence my proposed allow shoot out in town to demolish buildings. Some players play for ranking, let players take matter into their own hands and demolish other top towns to advance their own town's ranking. This also give wars more meaning. Right now, wars are quite pointless in my view. Damaged town also give builders something to do, rather than nerf builder (thank god that was scrapped)

I also support guard job + bounty system but adamently against dueling npc because guard job + bounty can address some of the inbalances that favor the duelers slightly and also address the inbalance for some duelers as their dueling is way too high, hard to find targets and a bit more stable income. Dueling npc simply further add benefit to duelers when duelers already enjoy a slight edge. Duelers need to know the problems they will likely face as they duel too much, it's a problem of their own making, nobody else is at fault but themselves.
 
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