another dueling option??

  • Thread starter DeletedUser23437
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DeletedUser23437

Proposal
To get dueling back into The West, dueling that brings some 'law' into play and helps to protect the 'innocent', while giving the dueler something to gain at the same time. I know many may see this as a waste of time and effort, as Inno has their own agenda, but I think maybe if we send some ideas to them, just maybe they may at least look at what we have to say, and may see that some of us still want dueling as a part of The-West.

I propose to rework the current dueling system, to give some protection to those who wish not to duel and to give a more balanced playing field for those that do, while giving some chances to gain bonds from dueling. We know the existing system has created the 0 mot duelers, duelers who don't want to face players many levels above them who have more AP/SP to spend and better level weapons to use, this system will also eliminate the need for 0 mot duelers.

The bases for my proposal is to eliminate the existing dueling level and to replace it with a dueling Reputation. In the old west, a gunslinger was known by his Reputation, how well he used his gun and by who he used it on. What I propose is a system that will have a players Reputation either rise or fall based on who they choose to duel. If you duel someone with more wins then loses your Reputation will rise, if you duel someone with more loses then wins your Reputation will fall.

Details
  • 'Dueling Level' would be eliminated and replaced with 'Dueling Reputation'
  • Range of people you can duel would be 1/10th your current level down, with no cap on the top side. (ex. lvl 20 player could duel player lvl 18 - 150, lvl 100 player could duel lvl 90 - 150)
  • Each character overview will show the Win/Loss record of that player ex: +2000, -500
  • When attacking, beating a positive win/lose record player - increases attacker's 'Dueling Reputation'
  • When attacking, beating a negative win/lose record player - decreases attacker's 'Dueling Reputation'
  • When defending, defender's Reputation does not change no matter of the result.
  • Duel Reputation is increased or decreased by the win/loss difference of the target. Ex: if target has +600 win/loss then your rep increases by 600.
  • Duel motivation would be used as a multiplier on final cash and experience received. 70% motivation will give you only 70% of the original exp and cash.
  • Beating a player with a positive 'Dueling Reputation' would gain you 1 bond for every 100 Reputation points (ex. 110 = 1 bond, 250 = 2 bonds, 540 = 5 bonds)
  • Beating a player with a negative 'Dueling Reputation' would gain you 1 bond for every -100 Reputation points plus percent increase in cash (ex. 110 = 1 bond, 250 = 2 bonds, 540 = 5 bonds)
  • Also a weekly bond bonus given, based off of either or both, increase in 'Dueling Reputation' for the week, or overall standing in 'Dueling Reputation' at the end of the week (nothing given for a negative dueling reputation)
  • NPC duels do not affect this

The negative to having a bad reputation, or what I call the 'outlaw', someone who preys on the 'innocent' those not equipped or designed as duelers.
- if you are an 'outlaw' and venture into a foreign town (not your home town), you have a random chance of having a run-in with the local law. This chance is a percentage based on 1/10th of your reputation. (ex -120 rep = 12% chance of an encounter)
- an encounter consists of a duel with a NPC player (this could be randomly generated, a mirror image, or maybe a mirror of one of the town members that was given the job of sheriff. this is still open for debate)
- the outcome of the duel; a win, nothing happens and the player continues on, a lose and the player is thrown in jail.
- if thrown in jail, the player has 2 options; pay fine or serve time, both based on how 'bad' of an outlaw you are. Example, if you have a -200 REP, you could either pay a $2000 fine or spend 2 hours in jail. -450 Rep, $4500 fine or 4.5 hours in jail. the negative to staying in jail, is your HP and EP are both frozen so there is no benifit to being caught and staying in jail.
- if an 'outlaw' enters into an alliance town, the random chance of a run-in with the law is cut in half. (ex -120 rep = only a 6% chance of an encounter)

Abuse Prevention
only abuse I can see is if a high or low Reputation player as a defender, loses on purpose...

Visual Aids


Summary
What does this gain us??

it gains for every type of player, (except those who pray on the innocent, the outlaws, lol)

1st - the worker, soldier, adventurer, those not focused on dueling and would rather go about their every day lives without crossing paths with those out for quick cash...
2nd - those who want to be known as the law or a seeking the reputation as the best Gun of the West
3rd - well, I guess even the outlaw can seek a status of 'the worst of the worst'

How does it all come together?

1st - if your not wanting to duel, and you lose when dueled, your dueling record will be negative. Dueling you will lower ones Dueling Reputation, increasing the odds that person may be targeted as an outlaw (beating an outlaw gains an increase in cash gained).
2nd - if you are the 'law" with a great rep, you have something to brag about and more bonds in your pockets
3rd - Outlaws (those with a negative Dueling Reputation) could become targets as they could be an easy win since they focus on the innocent and will have harder times as they travel from town to town.

This proposal does not effect the defenders 'Dueling Reputation' as they are not the instigator of the fight, your Reputation is only effected on fights you start.

Also if you lose, your Reputation is not effected, this is to encourage duelers to try and beat those with a better Reputation and record then them.

I am not sure how this is complex...
if you want a good Duel Reputation, you look for people with a positive win/lose ratio... this could be players with a good or a bad Reputation.... you attack and if you win, you gain bonds based on the defenders Reputation.... then end of week, with an increase in Reputation, or your rank in world Duel Reputation, gain more bonds.
if you don't care about your Duel Reputation, duel as you are now, who ever you want, just know, your Reputation may begin to fall and the more it falls, the more of a target you could become... and the harder it will be for you to travel to other towns without an encounter.
 
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DeletedUser35533

1.seems overly complex and would make finding opponents even harder or since there is no penalty for bad rep ,it would unleash butchers.
2.if a pk is beaten does his rep get better , if not what is to stop them from turning into bond farms ?
3.cash gained is % based and people don't usually keep cash on them and its not like bad rep will decrease the bad guys skill , even now there are hated duelers who can't be stopped without reskilling (or moving out of reach of lvl/distance ,which is less satisfying).
 

yellowtoad24

To be honest this is very complicated. I like the idea of the dueling = bonds, but I don't think this will get passed.
1) Also, if you are a zero motivation dueler, how will this affect you?
2) I don't like the idea that the dueling reputation is not affected by the duel. If I were to duel a Sharpies and win (I have only done this once on El Dorado, they are that good), I would want the world to know that I dueled a pro-dueler.
3) People may complain about this because of the unfairness of dueling already.
 

DeletedUser23437

1.seems overly complex and would make finding opponents even harder or since there is no penalty for bad rep ,it would unleash butchers.
2.if a pk is beaten does his rep get better , if not what is to stop them from turning into bond farms ?
3.cash gained is % based and people don't usually keep cash on them and its not like bad rep will decrease the bad guys skill , even now there are hated duelers who can't be stopped without reskilling (or moving out of reach of lvl/distance ,which is less satisfying).
1. a bad rep means that if someone attacks you and wins, they get a higher return on cash, making you more and more of a target the worse your Rep gets.
2. not sure what you mean by pk?? so can't answer
3. % is not just cash carried, but also bounties placed on the player

To be honest this is very complicated. I like the idea of the dueling = bonds, but I don't think this will get passed.
1) Also, if you are a zero motivation dueler, how will this affect you?
2) I don't like the idea that the dueling reputation is not affected by the duel. If I were to duel a Sharpies and win (I have only done this once on El Dorado, they are that good), I would want the world to know that I dueled a pro-dueler.
3) People may complain about this because of the unfairness of dueling already.
1st, not sure how this is complicated, please explain

1 - only thing for a zero mot, is a loss in $$s gained
2 - how do you say it doesn't effect your duel rep?? if you attack and win, your duel rep will go up or down, depending on the person you attacks win/lose record
3 - and how is it unfair, if you attack someone who doesn't want to duel, they will lose more and more, making them hurt your duel rep more and more as their win/lose gets worse and worse... as your rep drops, bigger guns will target you as the bonus to cash will continue to grow...
 
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DeletedUser35533

1. a bad rep means that if someone attacks you and wins, they get a higher return on cash, making you more and more of a target the worse your Rep gets.
2. not sure what you mean by pk?? so can't answer
3. % is not just cash carried, but also bounties placed on the player
1. if you have no cash , the return is the same .
2. pk is a player killer , it comes up in other karma/reputation systems.
Im asking if you have bad rep and lose a duel does your rep get better ?
3. most players dont have bounties on them . where does the extra cash come from , the system ? the increase /insignificant on small bounties and in big ones adds an option of cash farming next to bond farming
 

DeletedUser23437

1. if you have no cash , the return is the same .
2. pk is a player killer , it comes up in other karma/reputation systems.
Im asking if you have bad rep and lose a duel does your rep get better ?
3. most players dont have bounties on them . where does the extra cash come from , the system ? the increase /insignificant on small bounties and in big ones adds an option of cash farming next to bond farming
1 - true, no cash, the return is the same, so no change, save for the chance of gaining bonds... if you don't focus on dueling, and your Reputation remains between -100 and 100 which if you don't go out dueling should be easy, you can't be a bond farm, as those dueling you get no bonds from this.

2 - no, your Rep only changes if you are the attacker and win

3 - may cause more bounties to be bought, never know... as far as farming, the way to prevent that is to hit the player(the one being farmed, because he has driving the farm, as farming is a 2 way street)... now this could be a bit more complicated, but again would not effect those players with a Reputation of -99 or higher. If someone was to make a farmed dueler, they would drive their Reputation into the ground, attacking every easy player they could, weak workers, adventurers, soldiers, their win/lose ratio pushing their Reputation down and down... say -1000... then they want to be farmed and they carry $1000.... yes, the person farming them would get 10 bonds, and the $1000 they carried... the bonus 900% cash or $9000 they get because of the low Reputation... to me should not come from thin air, but is a 'fine' on the attacked player (the player with the -1000 Reputation) and would come from their bank account as a get out of jail fee... just an idea to prevent farming abuse...
 

DeletedUser30224

I like it all except the bit where you take extra cash from a high negative reputation win. I agree that you should take their cash if you win, but not extra than they are carrying. If you could adjust that, and I hope I speak for other as well when I say this, you would make us happier. Maybe something like this: for each negative reputation increment of 100, you take extra 10% cash (you start from 33%, for each negative 100 rep points you get +10% to a max of 100% of course).

How does that sound ?
 

DeletedUser35737

The player reputation instead of player lvl is great, why?
Cant explain but have duel reputation 200 is better then duel lvl 200, sounds better
About that idea, i think i already saw in one game i played before
so i understand ideia but for those players that dont is kinda hard to explain, so i will put this simple
For ea lose/win u will get -1/+1 point at reputation

About that cash getting from duel i dont think so just because this
if i duel a player with -200 points i will get 20%?
This mean that workers will have a lot of negatives points and if they have cash in hand lets say 1k i will win 1.2k?
Well since im a dueler i love, but this will mean that not duelling players will have lot of negative points

But ideia is good just need 1 or 2 changes that will appear when players start post ideias and suggestions
 

DeletedUser23437

I like it all except the bit where you take extra cash from a high negative reputation win. I agree that you should take their cash if you win, but not extra than they are carrying. If you could adjust that, and I hope I speak for other as well when I say this, you would make us happier. Maybe something like this: for each negative reputation increment of 100, you take extra 10% cash (you start from 33%, for each negative 100 rep points you get +10% to a max of 100% of course).

How does that sound ?
I started that way, but the worry is people making farm characters, thats why I leaned toward an outlaw(someone with negative Rep) would lose cash from their bank account... I know this is the hard part to accept with this plan, but the goal is to try and encourge players to not have a negative Rep... now if someone does want to be the worst of the worst, well this is a challange for them, how not to lose their banked cash... how to do it?? ideas I have: carry no cash and no additional will come from your account... hope for no bounties on your head... or turn all cash into products.



The player reputation instead of player lvl is great, why?
Cant explain but have duel reputation 200 is better then duel lvl 200, sounds better
About that idea, i think i already saw in one game i played before
so i understand ideia but for those players that dont is kinda hard to explain, so i will put this simple
For ea lose/win u will get -1/+1 point at reputation

About that cash getting from duel i dont think so just because this
if i duel a player with -200 points i will get 20%?
This mean that workers will have a lot of negatives points and if they have cash in hand lets say 1k i will win 1.2k?
Well since im a dueler i love, but this will mean that not duelling players will have lot of negative points

But ideia is good just need 1 or 2 changes that will appear when players start post ideias and suggestions
actually, a worker would not have a negative rep, unless they are attacking and hitting those with a higher lose record... your Rep only changes in duels you start, not on duels you are defending, so most workers would have a rep between -100 and 100, so the negative cash flow would not hurt them
 

DeletedUser35737

Hmm right
So one player only win rep by winning a duel?
So workers will have a 0 rep unless if they attack with i dont think so
 

DeletedUser30224

I had a good night sleep and thought of this a bit more. I am now worried about duel lvl. Duelling a high duel lvl will give you more experience but it's not always true that high duel lvls will have a high positive rep. Plus, if you are an experience dueller (duelling for experience), then you want to keep attacking high duel lvls. In fact you are restricted from duelling low duel lvls. 0 mot duellers might have +3000 or more or -3000 or more rep because they kept duelling at 0 mot for years. These players will become the obvious targets but because of duel lvl restrictions, high duel lvl players will not be able to duel them.

It's all complicated right now in my mind. Just a lingering though...would it not be much simpler and motivational to get bonds based on duel lvl alone ? The higher duel lvl you duel, the more bonds you get. Make motivation affect bond gain and you have solved the 0 mot problem + given incentives to duel only duellers.
 

DeletedUser23437

Hmm right
So one player only win rep by winning a duel?
So workers will have a 0 rep unless if they attack with i dont think so
correct, so this system would give some protection for those non duelers. for they would most likely have a negative win/lose ratio and dueling them would only drive your Rep down rather then up.

I had a good night sleep and thought of this a bit more. I am now worried about duel lvl. Duelling a high duel lvl will give you more experience but it's not always true that high duel lvls will have a high positive rep. Plus, if you are an experience dueller (duelling for experience), then you want to keep attacking high duel lvls. In fact you are restricted from duelling low duel lvls. 0 mot duellers might have +3000 or more or -3000 or more rep because they kept duelling at 0 mot for years. These players will become the obvious targets but because of duel lvl restrictions, high duel lvl players will not be able to duel them.

It's all complicated right now in my mind. Just a lingering though...would it not be much simpler and motivational to get bonds based on duel lvl alone ? The higher duel lvl you duel, the more bonds you get. Make motivation affect bond gain and you have solved the 0 mot problem + given incentives to duel only duellers.
this system would replace duel level with your Reputation and you would be allowed to duel those more inline with your own real level. because of this, I would think less people would be playing as 0 mot duelers, as there would be really no reason to keep your level low, in addition, I propose changing your motivation to effect the income you get off a player instead. a 100% motivation would give you 100% of the cash you could take in a win, a 50% motivation 50% of the cash. so a 0 motivation player would get no cash at all.

(note, I do play a 0 mot dueler on Colorado and only do that because I don't want to be forced to duel higher level better equipped players that a higher duel level would force me to do)
 
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DeletedUser30224

First: taking 100% cash from a player at 100% motivation is a no go. It will simply not pass, take my word for it.
Second: replacing Duel lvl with rep lvl sounds good but you need to specify that duelling will be based on character lvl. Specify the actual rules of how it will be done, how many lvl's below your lvl you can duel.
Third: If you eliminate duel lvl, you will have to have another way of representing duel experience gained from a successful duel. I'd suggest you keep duel lvl for this purpose (even if duel lvl will not limit you in any other way).
 

DeletedUser23437

First: taking 100% cash from a player at 100% motivation is a no go. It will simply not pass, take my word for it.
Second: replacing Duel lvl with rep lvl sounds good but you need to specify that duelling will be based on character lvl. Specify the actual rules of how it will be done, how many lvl's below your lvl you can duel.
Third: If you eliminate duel lvl, you will have to have another way of representing duel experience gained from a successful duel. I'd suggest you keep duel lvl for this purpose (even if duel lvl will not limit you in any other way).
1 - I think you misunderstand me.... when you attack and win against a player now, carrying $200, you receive a certain amount of that. What that exact number is or how it is figured, I am not sure, but say it is half, $100. so if you have 100 mot you would get $100, if you have 50 mot then $50, so 0 mot would get $0.

2 - right now its based on duel level and you can attack a certain range now, that range would just move down to your real number... I think its 10 down and 20 up isn't it?? with the negative to your Reputation for attacking a player with more loses then wins, those none 'duelers' should be fairly protected

3 - why would you need duel level for experience?? you could just use the player level, with maybe an adjustment based on the players Reputation
 

DeletedUser35737

1 - I think you misunderstand me.... when you attack and win against a player now, carrying $200, you receive a certain amount of that. What that exact number is or how it is figured, I am not sure, but say it is half, $100. so if you have 100 mot you would get $100, if you have 50 mot then $50, so 0 mot would get $0.
Thomas when u attack and win a duel u will give an extra 10% if u are a dueler, others class u dont get anythink extra so if your opp have $200, u will win $220

The problem that zd3no is talking is if u are lvl 50 and duel rep 120, can i face one opp
lvl 100 and rep 118 or is about lvl of char? where no mater duel rep my opp have i can duel him if my lvl is btw range(20 up and 10 down)?

This mean players i can duel is about duel rep or player lvl?

One more think plz
Why i cant duel players with duel lvl 200 if im lvl 140
Says lvl is too high, but if i want to duel him i should be able to
 

DeletedUser23437

Thomas when u attack and win a duel u will give an extra 10% if u are a dueler, others class u dont get anythink extra so if your opp have $200, u will win $220
this I think I got, but your duel motivation would now effect this income you get... so you win $200... at 100 mot, you would get the $200, at 50 mot you only get $100, and at 0 mot, you get $0... I want motivation changed, to force peep away from 0 mot dueling, and use these nice buffs that Inno always gives us to increase our motivation ;)

The problem that zd3no is talking is if u are lvl 50 and duel rep 120, can i face one opp
lvl 100 and rep 118 or is about lvl of char? where no mater duel rep my opp have i can duel him if my lvl is btw range(20 up and 10 down)?

This mean players i can duel is about duel rep or player lvl?

One more think plz
Why i cant duel players with duel lvl 200 if im lvl 140
Says lvl is too high, but if i want to duel him i should be able to
the range would be based on your player level, not your Rep...
but now that I think about it and read what you said again, maybe make it a base 10 level range up and down with 1/10th your Rep being a bonus to your top limit: example; level 50 player with 0 Rep would be able to duel people from lvl 40 to 60, a level 50 player with 100 Rep could duel people from lvl 40 to 70, a level 50 player with 1000 Rep could duel people from lvl 40 to 160
 

SpeedWork

Yeah, in my opinion you should always be able to duel someone whos (duelling) level is higher than yours.
But i dont think that you need to change the whole duelling system. The main problem are the 0 motivation duellers.
So i think that the motivation should influence your skillpoints. If your motivation is low you are aiming worse, your hits are not so effective, ...
So a formula including your skillpoints and your duelling-motivation would be a good solution.
_______________________________
Some suggestions:

•easily multiply the Motivation with each SP (Dodging,Aiming,Taktics,....)
but i think that is not the best solution :)
--> SP * MOT
_______________________

• SP * MOT + ( 1 - MOT ) * 0,5 * SP

SP: each skillpoint
MOT: motivation
that means your skills are maximal half of your normal skills when your motivation is 0.
(i hope that you understand this cause i think that would be a good solution :) )

this would make duell-motivation buffs more sensible and 0-motivation-duelling less sensible and duelling would be more fun.
_____________________________

These are only suggestions but in my mind it would be appropriately to think about it ;)
 

DeletedUser23437

I think one of the biggest problems and reason for 0 mot duelers is the duel level, that is one of the reasons to make some changes to the system... as it is now, things are based off of duel level and as it rises it makes it more difficult to compete as your lack of skill points and better gear make it more and more difficult (at lvl 120 with duel level anywhere above that, this doesn't matter, but lower levels it does)

Also the duel level is not a great representation of how 'good' a person is, as you can duel workers and adventurers day and night and your duel level will continue to rise. Where I feel my duel Reputation system will give a better representation of how good a player really is
 

SpeedWork

if 0 mot duellers got duelled they would have a big disadvantage. So most duellers would stop duelling with 0 motivation and their duelling level would rise and therefore the could not duell no-duellers with a lower level.
 

DeletedUser23437

if 0 mot duellers got duelled they would have a big disadvantage. So most duellers would stop duelling with 0 motivation and their duelling level would rise and therefore the could not duell no-duellers with a lower level.
1st, my proposal removes duel level, it doesn't exist anymore....

2nd, so no need for 0 mot dueling, everything is based on your 'real' level...